See also: IRC log
SKW: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/11-minutes approve?
RESOLUTION: to approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/11-minutes
RESOLUTION: to meet again 9 Oct, JAR to scribe
JAR: I think I'm done with Tuesday, though I'd like confirmation on a few spots
Noah: I think I'm done with Weds
DanC: I did a pass over Thu... around 85% done
SKW: sounds like we're set to approve ftf minutes next week
action-170?
<trackbot> ACTION-170 -- Noah Mendelsohn to coordinate response to CURIE last call (with help from Ashok) -- due 2008-09-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/170
SKW: proposed to send as drafted (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Sep/0099)
RESOLVED, DanC abstaining
RESOLUTION, with one abstention: NM to ship http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Sep/0099 to the XHTML WG as from the TAG
SW: Charter has been posted to
ac-forum for review
... we can still comment
... Do we want to?
NM: When the technologies were
submitted to W3C, the Team comment pointed out some issues
... to do with e.g. re-inventing some layers of existing Web
Arch.
... We could endorse the Team comment concern, although this
doesn't necessarily have to go in the Charter
... as WebArch issues are always the responsibility of WGs to
attend to
SW: The Team comments do point to AWWW and our discussion of EPRs. . .
NM: Still not sure whether pushing this is redundant
DC: Looking at the proposed charter
(http://www.w3.org/2008/08/ws/charter)
... I find "The W3C TAG has expressed interest in this area by
means of a TAG White Paper authored by Noah Mendelsohn."
<DanC_> it cites http://www.w3.org/2007/01/wos-papers/tag
<noah> It says:
<noah> The W3C recently accepted a WS-related submission titled: Web Services Transfer (WS-Transfer). Although no workgroup activity on WS Transfer is currently planned, the W3C team commented in accepting the submission on several technical issues raised by WS Transfer, and suggested that the TAG should investigate them. The issues mentioned include the overlap in the services provided by WS Transfer and by HTTP, and also the use of EPRs for resource identification
<noah> That's from the whitepaper prepared for the workshop. Most of the whitepaper was not directly about WS Transfer.
SW: Is it in order for the TAG to comment on a call for charter review?
DC: Sure. As to what channel to use. . .TimBL and Yves Lafon, perhaps?
SW: So, do we want to comment?
HT: It is AM and DO who are most likely to care, and they are not here. . ..
SW: No action unless NW, DO or AM bring it back to me
<DanC_> close action-171
<trackbot> ACTION-171 Coordinate response regarding WS-* inquiry from PLH closed
DO: I will write up some concerns, about not making use of WebArch, and I'll try to get to that]
<DanC_> current draft: http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-02.txt
<DanC_> old: base URI MUST be considered to be "http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations.html#"
DC: Doesn't work as evidently anticipated
<DanC_> because 'next' turns into http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/next
DC: So the new draft fixes that
<DanC_> [[3.1. Link
Relationships
Relationship values are
URIs that identify the type of link. If the relationship is a
relative URI, its base URI MUST be considered to be "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/",
and the value MUST be present in the link
relation registry.]]
DC:How does IANA service this? A 200 response would imply this is
an information resource
... So I suggested we should get them to do the 303 redirect
JR: I spoke to someone at IETF, and I think they are unaware of the issue and are waiting to hear from us
SW: Will uniform access to metadata work help them?
JR: Perhaps, but that's not the most effective way -- they just need a short message
JR: The person I spoke to is Lisa
Dusseault
... She says, on 3 June, "I think IANA just needs to add an alias
or move a page, not do 303 handling"
... I think she just didn't understand my perhaps too-brief
message
<DanC_> Lisa Dusseault, Open Source Applications Foundation: (http://www.ietf.org/IESGmems.html )
SW: Does she expect action from you? or the TAG?
JR: I just got involved via discussion on the IETF HTTP WG list. . .
<jar> Lisa Dusseault asks: "Why can't the same URI be both the namespace and the document describing the namespace?"
DC: The task is to convince the IANA web master, via the IESG, that a 303 is required
<jar> That was on June 3
JR: I'm happy to do something here, or DC is already involved. . .
HT: You have the ball, she asked you, try replying to her, if that doesn't work, come back to us for help
<DanC_> again: rel="next" turns into http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/next
TBL: What namespace? We do have that kind of 'pun' between namespace and document
HST, SW: It's not a namespace, it's a relation.
TBL: Right, this is part of our education role, we need to help them on this
TBL: Do we need to write something?
DC: Cool URIs for the SemWeb. . .
<DanC_> primer... well... there's http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-cooluris-20080321/
JR: I think that document is for
people who already understand the basics, and need to know how to
do it in detail
... whereas the current problem is that they don't yet recognise
this as a semweb issue
TBL: Well, I think you can explain that to her, she's got relevant background
<jar> I can take an action to write to Lisa D, cc: www-tag, with cool URIs and webarch as references.
SW: I think there is some tutorial Bob&Alice stuff in the CUftSW document
<scribe> ACTION: Jonathan to write to Lisa D of IESG, cc www-tag, to explain about 303, with cool URIs and webarch as references. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-tagmem-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Write to Lisa D of IESG, cc www-tag, to explain about 303, with cool URIs and webarch as references. [on Jonathan Rees - due 2008-10-09].
DO: I've done all the edits, except
for the stories which I was asked to add.
... I've done some research, but haven't yet found what I need wrt,
for instance, Digest . . .
... Everything is too generic, I'm still looking for some more
scenario-level stuff
... Not concluded yet, still working, watch this space
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/passwordsInTheClear-52-080912-080925-diff.html
DO: NW has produced some diffs
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/passwordsInTheClear-52-080602-080912-diff.html
The first has the text TBL proposed
HST: Looks better, I would like "sometimes they are acceptable"
SW: Not really a Best Practice
anymore
... A week to review?
HST: Yes please
DO: I still need to find the stories in any case
<timbl> change in the doc though sometimes/though they sometimes
DO: What shall I call the Good Practice notes which aren't anymore. . .
TBL: I think they are Good Practice
notes. . .
... Are you worried about them not giving advice?
DO: Yes
<DanC_> the GPN genre is more like "avoid use of clear-text passwords at some, if not all, cost"
SW: GP should be action orientated
<DanC_> GPNs are traditionally imperative
SW: I'm happy with the text
... Just feels awkward to call them GPNs
HST will try to make a suggestion when not scribing. . .
<timbl> He reformulated just the way I did
<timbl> (ht)
TBL: This is a fine GPN, it gives advice by saying "this is dangerous"
DO: Indeed, it reads literally as a "Bad Practice Note"
TBL: They don't have to be in the
imperative
... I'm happy as the way it is
SW: It will go on the agenda next
week, when we hope DO will have added the Story pointers
... and we can make a decision to publish
SW: Part 1 -- Panel proposed for TP
itself, on the utility of WebArch, both the concepts and the AWWW
document
... for the W3C's work
TVR: It has now been publicised in the draft agenda
NM: I think we're fine if we frame
the discussion
... I think some discussion of AWWW and our findings do useful work
for the W3C would be fine
... Do we know anything about the format?
SW: No, no contact with Chris Lilley on that -- anyone want to coordinate
NM: Happy to do that
SW: Offer accepted
NM: I'll give Chris the opportunity to make a suggestion, then respond as necessary
TVR: Panel not just the TAG
NM: Right, some TAG, including TBL, and some skeptics, and some folk in the middle -- that's my assumption, I have no direct knowledge
SW: Who from the TAG
NM: Who's there?
SW: Missing are SW, JR, DO, HST (on
the Wednesday)
... That leaves NM, TVR, AM, DC, TBL
NM: I can first ask those 5 if any of them do not want to be on the panel, then pass names to Chris Lilley
SW: Certainly worth feeding our preferences into this
NM: I will act as a conduit
TVR: There's a real risk we spend too
much time on the irrelevant bits
... TBL, will you take part, with what hat on?
TBL: Yes, as a TAG member, speaking for myself
NM: Well, you do serve in multiple
roles, maybe you could/should step up to the Director role at some
point as well
... and take on the role of the "honest broker" on behalf of the
Membership
TVR: I disagree, I don't think TBL should take on the role of referee
TBL: I could imagine taking the
Director role in an introduction as to why I/Director needed the
TAG
... With my TAG hat on I won't necessarily be defending everything
we've done
... We all should be willing to go there
... Given our role as the glue in the cracks, there's more than
enough work for us -- we could stand to have 3 TAGs
... There's plenty of work for us to do -- maybe they think we're
not getting on with it enough
TVR: Not sure what NM's role is, to shape how this goes
SW: What would you like to accomplish?
TVR: We need to shape the agenda, and
that depends a lot on who else will be on the panel
... Anyone know?
SW: NM, please report back on that as soon as possible
NM: I understand my job is to be the conduit between Chris Lilley and us on this kind of issue
SW: We could invite him to a call
NM: Maybe -- let me raise everything
I've heard here today: what do you have in mind, who do you plan to
invite, what do you hope to accomplish, what would be a
success
... and I'll feed that back to us, and coordinate a response
SW: Part 2, Meeting with HTML WG at
TPAC
... I've heard back from the Team Contact Mike Smith, after
discussion with Chris Wilson
... Our 4 topics would make a pretty big dent in their agenda
... They suggested looking at only URLs and conneg
... The most we could ask for is one quarter-day session
... We certainly can't cover all the topics, but this is just the
start of a communication process
... So we need to get things on the table on that basis -- I've
communicated this back to Mike
... I suggested we put the meeting at the beginning or the end, to
minimize disruption
... My inclination is to suggest the session after the break on
Thursday morning
... which could then continue over lunch
... I will put that to Mike Smith
<noah> I've been reading the HTML 5 spec, and another thing that bothers me is that there seems to be an awful lot that's presented algorithmically that I think would probably be better done declaratively. For example, even simple value formats like dates tend not to have BNF, but do have long sets of parsing rules that are pretty much computer programs set down in English.
<noah> I'm not sure we should use our TAG time to push that too hard, but I did note it. I'm sure the editors are aware of the tradeoff and made a conscious decision.
<Zakim> Stuart, you wanted to note that TAG engagement may encourage otherwise silent members of the WG
SKW: I'm getting conflicting input on
this meeting arrangement
... ok, after hearing various positions, I'll continue to pursue
the meeting, and ask to discuss modularity.
... on other TPAC meetings, I'll schedule according to data I get
about availability
ADJOURN.