See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Jan
<KFord> This is just an FYI that Marc from IE will be joinging us today but he will be a couple minutes late. He's here to talk about the ARIA document and represents us in PF.
<aaronlev> what's the passcode?
<aaronlev> i got invalid passcode
<aaronlev> now it works
JA: Says what we are going to do
for a couple years
... Which will mostly be UAAG2
KF: Question about success
... Success criteria don't include testing materials...should they?
JA: Don't know
JR: Sure let's add it
KF: Other than that it looks ok?
<oedipus_laptop> what about a UA Support For... type document which is maintained to document conformance / support?
JR: I was following WCAG's kead on how to fill in charter
<oedipus_laptop> yes JR
KF: So an implementation
... How all browsers have done
<oedipus_laptop> yes, 1.0 does, but it hasn't been updated since 2003 - i have an action item to update it
JA: Right and that's part of the CR process - Implementation report
<KFord> I'd be willing to help with this update, at least for IE.
JR: Sometimes there is a lack of manpower to do a wide effort at conformance testing
JA: OK we can focus a bit more on that after we get to Rec
AL: Charter not a lot of detail
AL: Felt requirements document is
more useful (http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-UAAG20-requirements-20071031/)
... I'd be willing to provide feedback on the Req document
JAL Good! We'd like feedback!
JA: Anything else?
... Should Mission also include statement that support documents will be created to the guideline.
JA: Right but maybe that's just duplicating too much.
AC: Interesting how repetitive the document is
JR: These charters are very high level
JA: We'll vote next week...then we need to go through Judy
<Zakim> oedipus_laptop, you wanted to ask that Access Module issues be added to agenda
GR: Acces module is important piece - is it ok if cross posts coninue?
JA: Yes cross posts ok
<KFord> Marc is on his way to my office.
<oedipus_laptop> must activate be boolean? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0175.html
<oedipus_laptop> redefining keys and user control cascade: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0176.html
2. Discuss/review ARIA UA Implementors Guide
<oedipus_laptop> (both XHTML Access Module Issues)
AL: Introduces self...
... Works on Firefox, WAI-PF, ARIA
Marc Sibley Arrives
MS: Introduces self, works on IE
and ARIA with WAI-PF
... So has been working with Simon and AL on this best practices guide
JA: Would like to throw it open
AL: My question is UA working group...
<oedipus_laptop> platform specifics
AL: How deep is UA going to get into platform specifics
<oedipus_laptop> thought we were platform agnostic
JA: In the past, not deep....
<oedipus_laptop> spec should be platform agnostic, techniques where to address
JA: Gave some examples, but pretty agnostic
AL: Right...from talking to other
browser vendors...but majority of our work is platform
... WHat we really need is help coordinating between platforms
KF: I don't see that in Guidelines doc it's in tech guide
AL: Don't care about names of
... Just care about practical
KF: But our first mission on UA is to be agnostic...in general this is what browser needs to do
<oedipus_laptop> first, do no harm...
KF: These are not UA reqs on platform A
AL: OK if not you, then say that
and someone else can do it
... Should I be doing it...implementors guide for ARIA...
... This is the kind of thing HTML should have done....
GR: I think the UAWG is trying to
work directly with other working groups eg HTML5....
... e.g. on the User Agent guidance from HTML45
... e.g. on the User Agent guidance from HTML5
... So we are giving feedback back to others
AL: So ARIA implementors guide....not really best practices
GR: Right that's what developers need
AL: Then I'm told go to UA group
who should be writing this
... Then WAI-UA responds that's not where are bread is buttered
GR: We want to work with ARIA
... See ARIA as standard W3C way of feeding in to APIs...
... THen they can look up the mapping
AL: Where do they look them up?
GR: In appendices of ARIA Best Practices doc
AL: Ok but doesn't map to the
... OK it's developed....too big for best practices, not for authors
... Do you see my problem?
MS: OK so you see these don't fit
in Web developers doc...
... My opinion...
... I think as groups like HTML start to develop specs, must be a best practices implemention guide...
... I think HTML5 guide should be very developer-centric
... I don't think UA could do implementation guides for all of the formats
... UA is more consultants to all the different groups...but they need to do theri own
<oedipus_laptop> aria to msaa mappings: (based on moz dev) http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/API_MSAA
MS: Since no one else doing ARIA, WAI should do it
JA: This is very detailed stuff having to do with browsers...UAWG always stayed at high level...
JA: Implementation "on top" specified (in the past).
<oedipus_laptop> aaronlev, do you want something more akin to http://a11y.org/a11y-dom-apis
JA: The members of the working list aren't at this level
AL: Good admission...I don't think you are ready for this
JA: Well all the people left to
work on ARIA over there
... Applies direcly but my concern is how many platforms are we going to do? Mobile other OS etc.
... How far does it go?
AL: Pretty far
KF: Unless we expand
... We don't cover this
... ARIA hot now, but something else will be hot in 5 years
... At that time they should be able to go to UAAG and found out what they need to be able to do with their format
AL: Not just me, take Opera
... CMN was on user agent before
... But what they really need is list of all HTML attributes etc.
... Since it's not there they'll reverse engineer FF etc.
<oedipus_laptop> (UAAG 1.0 test suite)
AL: I look at top level stuff for
a but, but then focus on low level
... Maybe you could be more of a host for a community to work on things
GR: Well the mappings should be standard and Access API dependent
KF: So....not in charter now....
<oedipus_laptop> ARIA provide standard calls to accessibility APIs
KF: But middle ground could be to facilitate coordination between browser developers
AL: We put our wiki on ???...because it is neutral
KF: So I'd be comfortable with
facilitation....vs. we the user agent does the deep
... But needs charter changes
AL: Ultimately I'd like to have software tools to know if things are done correctly or not
<oedipus_laptop> hyper-specific documents are a danger - people often implement off of a table or checklist rather than understanding the logic and structure, which leads to "dumb" implementations
KF: But you the ARIA group would be responsible for the validators
GR: My concern is that in
hyper-specific documents...people implement of table but not
necessarily ....understand concepts
... ARIA is there in the middle and it is APIs to move to it
AL: Access APIs are rich enough...but the APIs per platform are different
MS: Totally agree .... each group
developping technology needs to think end to end...
... So this is why I think it should go along side the other ARIA docs
GR: We are talking about access to DOM....so ARIA developers not responsible end to end....because APIs have role
AL: We do want to try to ensure that the user agents do things the same on the various platforms
GR: Violent agreement...
<AllanJ> JR: PF says it doesn't want to host. UA could host, non-rec track items. There is some presedent
<AllanJ> JR: Why UA space and not PF space
GR: Are we then
... Is this stuff formally coming out of ARIA best practices
MS: Fine with UA, but as we make changes to ARIA....will change ARIA implementation guide
<oedipus_laptop> q} to say that aria is the abstract the DHTML style guide is the where the abstract meets hardware
AL: So...accessibility needs to
be living breathing documents
... Take live regions for example, we'lll learn a lot
GR: Right so PF defines abstract but let's DHTML style guide to define details
KF: we are inagreement I
... To me PF working group still responsible for technologies they develop
... We can consult but can't be experts on all formats
<oedipus_laptop> strong plus one to KF's last statement - work in liaison with other WG to advise and counsel UA conformance/implementation/requirements
KF: So we could expand charter to
host best practices for other formats...
... But not being experts in them
AC: So we are just high level things
<oedipus_laptop> also need to address ARIA for those without assistive technology (native UA support)
KF: THink so....value of high level base requirements
MS: Driving key accessible principles into different techs
<oedipus_laptop> the second URI is generic test assertions
EJ: (Earl Johnson) in Linux
foundation...we callled them generic test assertions due to
differences across platforms
... Can you said it this range, can yout turn on/off beep
... Then up to UA developer to figure out how they will meet that test
JA: That's how we've
... UAAG doesn't get down to platform, programming languages...
<oedipus_laptop> detailed work on wiki?
JA: But what I'm hearing today is that UAWG could provide the space
<oedipus_laptop> precedent: EO working on ARIA educational materials
GR: Think EO is working on educational stuff for ARIA
<scribe> ACTION: KF, JA, JR to Think about charter change to take into account user agent implementations...eg link to HTML5 or publishing note as in ARIA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-ua-minutes.html#action01]
JA: Marc and Aaron, we've reached end of time...do you want to come back?
AL: So we are pushing format groups to produce user agent implementation techniques
AL: So the requiements don't get
down to APIs
... Guess I could come in, but would prefer just to review text, emaiols etc
MS: I could prob come back thurs but will talk to Kelly
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/techniques were/techniques where/ Found Scribe: Jan Inferring ScribeNick: Jan WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AC AL Aaron_Leventhal Alan AllanJ Cantor EJ Earl_Johnson GR Gregory_Rosmaita JA JR Jan KF KFord MS Microsoft P8 aaronlev oedipus_laptop precedent You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0048.html Got date from IRC log name: 17 Apr 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-ua-minutes.html People with action items: ja jr kf WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]