15 Apr 2008

See also: IRC log


TimBL, jar, Stuart, Alan, Alan_Ruttenberg




<timbl> The TAG had a diagram to express that

<Stuart> jar: suppose that you have a URI that you dereference and different times requesting different language variants.

<Stuart> ... there is something that needs to in some sense be consistent between the returned representations.

<alanr> http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/webarch_icse2000.pdf

<Stuart> ... looking for something that 'mandates' such a connection (between representations).

omnigraffle diagram:


<Stuart> http://sw.neurocommons.org/2008/inforesource.png

<timbl> tag:Representation

<alanr> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html

<timbl> Value includes metadata and bits

<Stuart> jar: uses value mean a value that isn't necessarily constrained to be an 'awww:representation' of any particular thing.

<alanr> u:RepresentationInvariant

<Stuart> jar: Fieldings more formal definition of a resource is as a temporal mapping function to sets of equivalent values.

<Stuart> fyi. I think fielding actually says mapping to [sets of equivalent values] or URIs (ie. includes notion of redirection aswell).

<alanr> he writes "any concept that might be the target of a hypertext link" versus "any web page that might be the target of a hypertext link"

<alanr> stuart, yes, including URIs is one of the things that makes it inconsistent

<Stuart> alan... how so?

<alanr> stuart: One inconsistency: Resource = a mapping, versus resource = Any information that can be named can be a resource

<alanr> a document, an image. These are not mappings

<alanr> what about differing laws in us, france re: labeling.

<alanr> If liability is the criterion, then they could have different information

<alanr> so sometimes = same information, sometimes = same liability

<alanr> this can be confusing if not predictable, discoverable, at least for machine interpreters

<Stuart> Well... I think that (on the web) I can see a document as a mapping to values (which happen to encode the state of the resource).

<alanr> stuart, the slogan here is "that's epistemology". One shouldn't confuse how we come to know something from what that thing is.

<timbl> Now looking at which bit?

<Zakim> Stuart, you wanted to note that Fielding (at least orally) take a utilitarian view of resources.

stuart: uri denotes the abstract resource, cloud is a view
... resource proves its utility by being consistent

alan: it's not clear enough

timbl: commonly, we mean the abstract document byt the uri
... solid line should be denotes, not abused to denote
... you can't provide a complete definition of IR that will satisfy everyone

alanr: 'document' had a prior meaning that was different from AWWW sense

timbl: copyright of language variants is held by same entity

alanr: work, expression, performance are different from doccument

timbl: you can't choose one word that will make all communities happy e.g. library vs. business meann different things by 'document'

<alanr> for the OWL document, we have a section introducing OWL to different communities (If you are a database developer.... If you are a java programmer ...) If Document is to be used as an effective term, I think we need to have such a thing.

<timbl> sameWorkAs

jar: can i say sameas for two tag clouds over same AD?

timbl: depends on intent


<alanr> If it can be sameAs to one community, but not use sameAs in a different community, then doesn't this get in the way of sharing world wide?

<Stuart> I think that you could say that they were variantWorks of the GenericWork.

timbl: can't conclude that A is same as B

<Zakim> jar, you wanted to ask about uris for ADs that differ only by tag cloud

<alanr> people use it all the time

timbl: wouldn't use sameas ...

<timbl> bycataloge#awww = <http://www.w3.org/TR/AWWW>.

a.com/foo.html = b.com/bar.html ?

<timbl> <> <>

<Stuart> Xiashou has been using "awww:representation" identifies "awww:resource" with an understanding of "awww:representation" to be an ephemeral thing at a moment... and in that context his "awww:representation" identifies "awww:resource" makes sense.

<timbl> <htp://a.com/foo.html> ex:managedMy [foaf:name "A.com" ]

<alanr> but the value cloud is dependent on what the server wants to do

<alanr> two servers serving the same resource don't have to both give the same representations

<alanr> they only have to give the same representations if they serve the same mime type

http://a.com/foo = http://b.com/bar ?

<Stuart> Alan... what for you makes the resource available at these servers "the same resource"?

timbl: when you refer to it via a particular service, you mean the AD *as managed by that service*
... who is responsible for its upkeep?
... for most purposes we don't care

<Stuart> Oh... another thing on Fielding's model is that there is a two step mapping URI->fn(t); fn(t)->[representation | URI]

<timbl> Well, we are allowing { ?x ?p ?o } => { ?y ?p ?o } for app p and o.

<Stuart> which kind of acknowledges that the URI->resource mapping can change.

timbl: there is never a complete semantics

<alanr> Suppose they both are serving a syndicated report of the weather in Oaxaca

jar: but what are ok statements to make?

<alanr> that was answer to Stuart

<alanr> stuart, thanks for the picture :)

<Stuart> I'm looking for the kind of objective test that you would use.

timbl: the pdf version has a length of 3.2 kilobytes

<alanr> Indeed, I would like that too. I think I know how to do that sort of thing, but usually when I try it is considered to formal, or tooo boundary

timbl: value cloud as a set is not worth talking about
... because it's hypothetical
... different ads each time

<Stuart> I think that the value cloud is an artifact of the way that we (Fielding) model a resource (give it a mathematical formulation).

timbl: misleads people into thinking the resource *is* the set of files

<Zakim> timbl, you wanted to say the abstract resource is what is denoted. Retract my happiness with the document. and to say the abstract resource is what is denoted. Retract my

<timbl> I wonder whether w could have a new picture wth the arrow fixed IMO?

<Stuart> I don't think it is intended to say that all resources are literally mappings of function to time, just that we can choose to model them that way.

alanr: to the extent that we're trying to learn what the resource is, we can't depend on the value cloud

<alanr> "how do we match a specification to an implementation" - that's what we want

<Zakim> alanr, you wanted to bring in the question of how we come to know based on the value cloud, and he dependence of the value cloud on the server

timbl: stuart, can you remember where the edinburgh diagram is?

stuart: it's important that the uri denote the abstract document
... if people make statements about the representations using the uri, they're doing the wrong thing

<alanr> blasted phone battery. back in a sec

<Stuart> content-location:

stuart: representations are not the things being referred to ...

<Stuart> Jar... have you taken a peak at Larry Masinter TBD and DURI draft?

Summary of Action Items

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