EOWG -- 29 Feb 2008

<scribe> Scribe: Henny

<scribe> ScribeNick: Henny

<andrew> hello all

<shawn> :)

<yeliz> hi

<yeliz> happy birthday Andrew

<shawn> LOL

<shawn> all: sing Happy Birthday to Andrew

<yeliz> I am also on the phone

<yeliz> can you hear me

<yeliz> ?

<yeliz> I will call again

Upcoming meeting schedule

Shawn: Daylight saving will be off for three weeks in March. Propose we stick with US time then do an hour earlier in Europe.
... any objections to having meetings an hour earlier 14,21,28 March?Alan can then stay the whole time.

<yeliz> fine by me

Shawn: 21st is Good Friday and a holiday for some. If you would prefer EO not to meet then let me know.

<shawn> ACTION: all update http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/availability/ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Shawn: Please wait an hour after the con call to update the schedule.
... reminder, I am keeping teleconference schedule and topics on the home page updated so you can look at this during the week before I send out the egenda.

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/#meetings

Mobile Web and Accessibility Overlap Documents

Andrew: Background, we started going through the detailed mapping for MWBP 1 to WCAG 2. Discussed what should be in there compliance and good practice. Alan can fill us in.

Alan: The idea was that people would be more interested in web compliance.

William: Does it give me WCAG complicane? No. I think we should explain if it gives further accessibility rather than just no.

Alan: The idea is that it shouldn't only cover compliance...it should be a justification of why you should do this even if it doesn't give compliance.

Shawn: You're suggesting to add another section to each one?

Alan: No

Andrew; The section "How does it help people with disabilities" explains it may not be complicance but it does help people with disabilities.

Andrew: We discussed last time that there is more to WCAG compliance. It may not but it does make it better for people with disabilities.

Andr

William: If the title is something more like "How does it enhance accessibility" - could be better.

Alan: First section is looking at if I am interested in accessibility why should I implement.
... It's addressing if I am interested in accessibility why should I do this mobile thing...

Yeliz: rewording would help.

<shawn> How does it help users with disabilities?

Shawn: Accessibility and users with disabilities is the same thing? Users with disabilities gives a stronger focus.

<shawn> How does it help accessibility?

<shawn> How does it enhance accessibility for users with disabilities.

Shawn: How does it help users with disabilities versus How does it help accessibility.

<shawn> [ How does it enhance accessibility to users with disabilities. ]

Andrew: Are these questions in the wrong order for people reading the document

Alan: The idea is that it goes beyond helping the general user. It looks at how does it especially help users with disabilities.

Shawn: I think that is assumed.

Alan: Some have no added benefits suggests it doesn't help anyone.

Shawn: Not sure that is a risk.
... There you could say "does not especially help users with disabilities"

Yeliz: But in the context of the document may not be necessary

Wayne: I agree

William: What needs fixing is not the user with disabilitioes the AT but the document.

Andrew: Partly correct. Shall we talk about rewording second question "Does it give me WCAG 2.0 compliance"?

Yeliz: It's not the question....it's confusing

Alan: An explanation of the definition is in the overview document
... should we link each, this is quite cumbersome.
... Needs something to make it clear in this context.
... Partially is about scope. The BP may be wider or narrower than WCAG.

Andrew: Scimming throuh the document I wondered if you wanted a line break so people could read the question and answqer.

William: So far we want to put "Does it give...", especially and line breaks.

Andrew Open for discussion

Andrew: Line break useful?

William and Yeliz: yes

<shawn> ideas for rewording question: Does this relate to WCAG 2.0 compliance? or Does this relate to a WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria? or ???

Wayne: If you use WCAG sufficient techniques you can match criteria
... If you use WCAG sufficient technique you meet the bp.

Andrew: Let's discuss swapping order of question and compliance issue. Any more discussion?

Yeliz: I like current order, you have the why it's important...

William: You don't have to change the second one when you change the order.

Shawn: I want to check the wording on "Does it give me WCAG 2.0 compliance"? Do we want to be more specific and say "Does this relate to WCAG 2.0 compliance"...

Wayne: "Does this satisfy / meet WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria?"

Doyle: You could make it more specific does this meet "a" SC.

Alan: Understand the ideas it would be better to be more specific as long as the sentence is not too cumbersome.
... I can change it.

William: I do thing it is long.

Wayne: Sounds nicer though!

Shawn: I think "How does this relate to WCAG 2.0 SC" is ok but happy to leave to Alan.

Alan: I think "satisfy or meets"

Wayne: This document has a nice tone to it

Andrew: Alan if you want to send options to the list that could be a way forward.
... Let's look at the central meaning

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#CENTRAL_MEANING

Andrew: Ensure that meaning that is central to the meaning of the page preceeds content that is not.

Wayne: Some novice screen readers found having this first annoying.

<shawn> ACTION: Alan, consider changing to "How does it enhance accessibility to users with disabilities:" or "How does it help users with disabilities:" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action02]

<shawn> ACTION: Alan, consider changing to "Does this relate to|meet|satisfy WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria:" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action03]

<shawn> ACTION: Alan, consider whether to change order of how does it help people and is it in WCAG 2.0 questions. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action04]

<shawn> ACTION: Alan, after the "Does it give me WCAG 2.0 compliance?" answer, do a line break, e.g., after "Partially" (to make easy to skim) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Alan: You should consider doing this in all contexts not just mobile use

Andrew: I think this is implicit.
... The next H3, "clarity"
... Doers any disagree with Alan that "central meaning" does not give complicnce?

Alan: People in teh other group were curious to know what users were not included in WCAG

Andrew: Partly becuase everyone benefits

Shawn: More usability than accessibility
... It woudl prevent you having banner ads which we couldn't require.

Andrew: Using clear and simple language - any additional ??? that may help?

Alan: Best practice talks more about being brief rather than easy to read.
... frontload important information

Yeliz: Would screen reader users benefit?

Alan: Yeah
... An inate reading difficultly rather than difficulty reading due to the device.

Andrew: What about people who enlarge text or use screen mag and thefeore can't see as much of screen as intended.

Wayne: Same thing as mobile device user

Andrew: Worth drawing out
... Any more discussion?
... Anything missing from the discussion on compliance?

<shawn> ACTION: Alan, fix typo under "[CENTRAL_MEANING]": "such as those using screen readers or sreen magnifiers benefit from this BP. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action06]

William: Is the MWBP group have much emphasis on distraction?

Alan: No but has been considered.

<shawn> ACTION: Alan: under "[CLARITY] " add additional benefits to people with disabilities (noted in minutes) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action07]

William: This doesn't get addressed too much

Doyle: Lots of research at Uni of Wisconsin about this.
... Is important but we are not in a position to deal with this very well.

Wayne: An advanced criteria applies - you should be able to view teh screen at 200%
... That has a lot to do with best practice

Wayne 1.4.4 Resize text.

Wayne: Their clear and simple language is refering to keep it brief

Shawn: WCAG 1 is layout and coding of page not language

Wayne: Can you look at that and see if it's close - I'm not sure. Is MWBP clear and simple language the same as WCAG?

Alan: Clear and simple is about being brief, different from WCAG

Shawn: This does not relate to the SC i.4.4

Yeliz: Agree with Shawn.

Shawn: In a meta way they are related but does it get you closer to meeting 1.4.4? No

Alan: We'd have to explain to people what the relationship is but if we can't explain it then we shouldn't.

WAI-ARIA documents

Shawn: These were published Feb 4th and they look awesome. They are the new documents that were partly motivated by our suggestions from the Technical Plenary in December.
... lets look at the Primer in detail
... Any questions or comments on the WAI ARIA documents overall?

http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-primer/

Shawn: Who has had a chance to look through?
... Lisa, are there specific areas you want us to focus on on teh fly?

Lisa: Probably section 5.

Shawn: I have questions.
... Section 2: The problem

<andrew> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-primer/#problemstatement

Shawn: Remind us of the primary audience.

Lisa: Decision makers and developers

<lisap> Noting one typo, in list item 2: common example of this content formatted Need and "is"

<hbj> Done

<andrew> done

<scribe> done

<lisap> done

Shawn: Any feedback?

William: Some stuff needs expanding, not HTML but BP would be useful.

Shawn: How we deal with acronyms in this documen?
... Other comments?

Wayne: What is the possibility this is the first contact people may have with it?
... You almost have to know what the problem is before you read teh problem.

Shawn: Let's assume people have read the Overview.

Wayne: Then that makes sense:

<sylvie> done

Lisa: That was teh presumption from the authors perspective.

Shawn: How about the illustrations:

Wayne: They're great.

Shawn: As a manager or decision maker who is not highly technical how is it?
... So Lisa we're saying that it's not meant to meet the non-technical level.

Lisa: The Overview is for the non technical the Primer is for the desision maker and developer needs.

Shawn: I had difficulty follwoing the figure illustration paragraph.

Doyle: It does a great job. Not light reading must read carefully.

Yeliz: Maybe there should be a short sentence explaining what this figure is attemting to achieve before explaining it.

Shawn: Lisa could you take a pass at looking at the diagrams sections with a mind of adding "this is going to explain" some kind of introduction.

Lisa: I agree with adding that.

Doyle: After I read teh diagramns it seemed there was a more expressive sentence at the end.

<shawn> ACTION: Lisa. WAI-ARIA Primer. "2 The Problem" second part. consider adding introductions, transitions, explanations, esp. around the figures and illustrations - to set context. add summary sentence at the end of section 2. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action08]

Andrew: What about placing the sentence before the diagram saying "This diagram shows..." then the diagram then the detailed explanation.

Shawn: That's good.

Wayne: Useful for some developers too.

Shawn: I think this was from a more technical document so it would be could to have Lisa simplify it.

Wayne: I don't think the description of teh diagram is not a sufficient alternative.

Shawn: What about a LONDDESCRIPTION on this.

Lisa: Not sure how to describe it.

William: Is there somebody on the PF Group who can do that?

Wayne: I could have a go this weekend.

Lisa: Great. We have a call Wednesday so that would be good.

<shawn> ACTION: Wayne & Lisa. WAI-ARIA Primer. "2 The Problem" provide text description of figures -- probably entity relationship, in separate page (longdesc - although probably a link) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/29-eo-minutes.html#action09]

Shawn: Anything else on this section?

<andrew> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-primer/#businsessreasons

Shawn: Lets look at section 6 "Business reasons for adopting WAI ARIA"

"Business reasons for adopting WAI ARIA and WCAG 2.0"

<andrew> done

<scribe> done

<yeliz> I am done

Doyle, Yeliz, Henny: Doesn't feel pitched towards business reasons

Yeliz: Doesn't mention WCAG 2.0 at all in the first paragraph.

Doyle: Re-explain widgets

William: Hard to see why the pictures are there.

Yeliz: I agree what is the role of the diagram?

Lisa: A lot of the content in this section is a summary of development reasons

<andrew> Andrew: trying to address the problems of the web and accessibility in 2008, inlcuding the use of widgets, and move beyond the accesisbility constrainst of the 1990's

Lisa: The existing section 6 should be recast as development reasons i.e. why ARIA is a more efficient way of coding for accessibility then follow that section with a new section on the business reasons.
... The question that ends section 6 should almost be the beginning of the Business Section.

Shawn: Issues: Using modern coding practices. Not using ARIA takes more effort
... Still an unanswered question which is why should I bother with accessibility of widgets anyway. Is this out of scope for this document or is there a good a answer?
... Are there additional benefits for using ARIA.

Lisa: Yes. When you make a RIA capable of behaviong in an automated way you increas the ability to write tests.
... Another is because ARIA is being written together with AT vendors etc developers whould have to do less browser specific code etc.

Shawn: Good points to clarify here.

Lisa: Is it true that if you implement ARIA you increase scalability (as you do with CSS)

Andrew: A questions relevant to mobile devices as well

<Wayne> I must leave a little early. Bye.

Andrew: What overlap is there between mobile and ARIA.

Shawn: Need to explor this a little more. Anyone interested in taking that on?

Andrew: I can discuss with the office here as there is work on mobile and ajax.

Lisa: Another benefit dev or business? As WAI ARIA establishes a standard it eases the learning curve for developers moving from different applications.
... Should promote usability for all.

Shawn: This is really important. Could even be own dowument, for now it is fine.
... Important to seperate: If you are doing accessibility, here are the benefits of using WAI ARIA.
... I find people are saying (even semi comitted to accessibility) is that ARIA is too hard and complex. I

Lisa: We wont have to do Jaws scripting browser hacks...

Shawn: Any other ideas.
... Anything you want us to focus on for next week Lisa?

Lisa: The Best Practices Guide needs a read through for language. Secondly I will rewite section 6 drafted by maybe Tuesday th. I'll then send it to the EO list for review.

Shawn: Please plan time for BP's and section 6 next week.

<lisap> http://www.sxsw.com/

<yeliz> bye all

<yeliz> have a nice weekend

- DRAFT -

EOWG

29 Feb 2008

Attendees

Contents

Upcoming meeting schedule

Mobile Web and Accessibility Overlap Documents

WAI-ARIA documents

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output