<RelDrgn> hm, I predict that this is probably a wholly inappropriate place to mention this, but the last revision of Overview.html truncated the file in the middle (Changes since 1.425: +1 -30610 lines)

<RelDrgn> (referring to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ )

<hsivonen> are the video workshop minutes Member-only on purpose? I though they were supposed to be public after a review

<MikeSmith> hsivonen - URL?

<hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/minutes

<hsivonen> linked from the w3.org front page

<MikeSmith> OK, I'll ask Philippe now

<hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks

<MikeSmith> hsivonen - Philippe's not online, so I went ahead and set it to public. The fact that it's linked to on the home page without a "[member only]" note seems to suggest it definitely was not intended to be member-only

<MikeSmith> thanks for the heads-up

<hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks

<zcorpan> i apologize for initiating a bikeshed topic on public-html

cite element? or something else, zcorpan ? (I keep forgetting the relationship between IRC nicks and email names)

<zcorpan> DanC_lap: target=_blank

<zcorpan> simonp@opera.com

<Julian> zcorpan: I think it's a good discussion to have (target=_blank)

<zcorpan> Julian: sure

<zcorpan> Julian: though, that thread seems to have turned into a bikeshed by now :)

<Julian> zcorpan: I admit I didn't read all of it.

the _blank thread looks mostly healthy; I just wish some test-case-elves were following along.

<Philip> What kind of test case would help that thead?

one where the input document has target="_blank" and the output is "conforming" or "non-conforming"

better if the input documents capture some use cases, such as gmail

the output could also be: new window allowed/required/forbidden

allowed + browser-makes-new-window = pass

allowed + brosers-uses-same-window = pass

required + browser-uses-same-window = fail

forbidden + browser-mades-new-window = fail

<zcorpan> the thread isn't about what browsers do, but about whether _blank should be conforming for authors

it makes a WG decision straghtforward to phrase

<Steve_f> dan: is the meeting happening now or have i got the times wrong?

oops

<sampablokuper> Ditto

<Gerrie> Gerrie Shults, not Jerry

Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-02-21T17:00:00Z

Laura Carlson

<Gerrie> Gerrie Shulte

<Gerrie> Gerrie Shults

Gerrie Shults / HP

David Bills

Joshue O Connor

Steve Faulkner

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/open

is issue ISSUE-14 aira-role the same as issue-35?

next meeting 28 Feb, Chris W. to chair (4pm Pacific time)

<Steve_f> dan: for issue 35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0275.html

ISSUE-36 client-side-storage-sql

issue-36 is a design issue...

see also ISSUE-16 (edit)

offline-applications-sql

issue-16 is a requirements/scope issue

Dave, is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0288.html the message you're speaking of?

<ChrisWilson> agrees with Dan - but doesn't understand if "SQL-lite" is descriptive enough to go with currently.

<anne> it's SQLite

<ChrisWilson> sorry, someone else mis-typed in an email, and I haven't finished my first cup of coffee.

action-13?

<trackbot-ng> ACTION-13 -- Chris Wilson to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN

<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/13

<gsnedders> What version of SQLite? Do we have to copy bugs from SQLite?

<gsnedders> etc.

<anne> ChrisWilson, no need for apologies, just making sure everyone is talking about the same thing :)

close action-13

<trackbot-ng> ACTION-13 Talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion closed

<DavidFBills> I guess the real question would be whether it would follow the feature set or actually implement the actual code

<ChrisWilson> So Anne, since you're not on the phone - the question is "is 'SQLite' a defined enough, interoperable spec to refer to?"

<anne> Probably not. As I said on the mailing list, the plan is to wait for two implementations and to define it then

<gsnedders> ChrisWilson: SQLite supports most of SQL92 — I think requiring SQL92 support would be easier

<gsnedders> <http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html>

<anne> You don't want all of SQL anyway, as some features don't make sense for client-side storage

<anne> (encodings, transactions, etc. should probably all be banned from the language as far as this API is concerned)

<gsnedders> That's true, but it's probably better to define what we need in terms of SQL92 than any implementation

<anne> I don't see why it needs to be in terms of something else, one more level of indirection

CW: I talked with Chaals about WebAPI/HTML boundaries... they're being re-chartered...
... I think we can find editors too...

<DavidFBills> anne: I agree

<scribe> ACTION: Dan check for offline api stuff in WebAPI proposed charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-53 - Check for offline api stuff in WebAPI proposed charter [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-28].

<Josh> IRC is go ;-)

orientation, process

<ChrisWilson> agrees with anne - I'd rather NOT have a level of indirection, unless the redirection is to a very definitive specification.

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/results

<oedipus> Extensible HyperText Markup Language Vocabulary namespace

ISSUE-31 missing-alt

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31

a periodic survey of top web sites

* M. Jackson Wilkinson

* Sean Fraser

* Terry Morris

* Serdar Kiliç

* Rene Saarsoo

* Patrick Taylor

* Roman Kitainik

* James VanDyke

* Craig Saila

* Michael Turnwall

* Benjamin Hedrington

* Karl Dubost

* Marco Battilana

* Andrew Smith

* Shawn Medero

* Eric Eggert

* Ben Millard

* Thomas Bradley

* Mark Martin

* Balakumar Muthu

* Justin Thorp

* Samuel Santos

* Karl Groves

DanC: Joshue, did you look at missing alt in your video survey?

Joshue: no, but could do...

<Josh> Would be glad to provide video footage to supplement discussion on @alt issue

"the failure of the HTML5 draft to make

@alt on <img> an across-the-board requirement (even if sometimes

it has the value of &quot;&quot;) is a bug."

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0082.html

<ChrisWilson> if it's required but allowed to be "", why is that any better? Is there a pointer to that discussion somewhere?

<Josh> The null alt value is ignored by Assistive Technology for one thing.

<gsnedders> ChrisWilson: the rational seems to be it "is inconsistent with WCAG"

<ChrisWilson> @Josh I think you're agreeing?

<gsnedders> (I've never seen any better rational than that, even if there is some)

<ChrisWilson> @gsnedders umm. yeah.

<smedero> What is considered a valid source of the "top web sites" if anyone wanted to fire off a crawling job? Alexa's "Top 500 Global Sites"? http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?ts_mode=global&lang=none

<zcorpan> ChrisWilson: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute

<smedero> I find Alexa to be of questionable trust with respect to traffic numbers but... I don't know who else is publishing something like this... particularly something that either has an XML feed or a screen-scrape friendly front-end for automating the crawl.

<Josh> @Chris, am not sure yet what I am agreeing to ;-)

<anne> the PFWG actually failed to address our concerns

<oedipus> there is going to be the possibility of a null value for an attribute, and in the case of ALT, that should be a "reserved character" -- if you use alt="" it will be skipped and you better damn well make sure that it was only decorative (or a spacer)

<anne> their argument boils down to: "it should be invalid"

<oedipus> how so, anne

<Josh> @Chris One concern is that making the alt value optional send the wrong message to bad developers

<sampablokuper> Are spacer graphics still considered okay?

<zcorpan> sampablokuper: no (they never were)

<sampablokuper> right; thanks for confirming.

<Josh> That they can somehow ignore it, which in some cases they can (Spacers or presentation graphics/icons with null values are Ok etc)

<oedipus> no, spacer gifs are supposed to be supplanted by CSS, but then again, HTML4.x also formally deprecated use of BLOCKQUOTE for stylistic reasons, but like spacers, they continue to be everywhere

<anne> they can also ignore it by setting alt=randomValue

<anne> which is the point the PFWG failed to address

<Philip> sampablokuper, the current HTML5 draft says "The img must not be used as a layout tool. In particular, img elements should not be used to display fully transparent images, as they rarely convey meaning and rarely add anything useful to the document."

<Josh> @sampa Do you mean spacers GIFs as opposed to icon type or button graphics?

<Philip> (though that makes some of my canvas test cases non-conforming)

<sampablokuper> @Josh I was referring to the comment by oedipus above

<zcorpan> Philip: (test cases don't need to be conforming)

<Josh> @sampa no worries

<oedipus> sampablokuper, did you get my reply

<sampablokuper> oedipus, yes, thanks

<oedipus> when you use @foo all 4 screen readers i have here choke and don't speak the word -- that's why i don't like the @foo attribute shorthand

<scribe> ACTION: SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - SteveF

<Josh> back in a minnute

oedipus, can I assign this action to you, for admin purposes?

<oedipus> yes, dan

<scribe> ACTION: Gregory work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-54 - Work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2008-02-28].

ISSUE-34 commonality

<oedipus> there also is an ancient "accessibility" trick from the days of HTML Wilbur, where one would use invisible 1 pixel images to provide "unobtrusive" context; something now supplanted by WCAG2 Technique C7 (use of overflow to "hide" extra contenxtualizing text to a link that visually says "Real More..." or "See Also..." multiple times on a page

<dfbills> oh the dreaded spacer.gif

"Can we get access to tools that determine how often markup is used on the web?"

<dfbills> I've always found it interesting that img alt tags are designed for accessibility, but the most common use would be in lightweight or mobile browsers where the overhead in byte-count actually slows the loading of the code over the network.

CW: clearly these tools are valuable; Microsoft has some and in some cases I might be able to use them for HTML WG purposes

[somebody]: and Ian Hickson can do queries at google sometimes

<dfbills> Is anyone providing it on the web? or at least statistics similar to netcraft with the server stats?

<scribe> ACTION: Dan ask the TAG about tag soup measurement techniques [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-55 - Ask the TAG about tag soup measurement techniques [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-28].

<gsnedders> dfbills: Philip Taylor has some data at <http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index>

<smedero> It seems like the real issue with the markup analyzation isn't the tools so much as the web-scale data mining hassles.

ISSUE-35 aria-processing , ISSUE-14 aira-role

<Steve_f> apologies, have to leave now.

<oedipus> GJR: i just commented on this issue - i think it is malformed

<dfbills> smedero: sure- that's why we should target someone with access to search engine data or browser development tools

ADJOUN.

<Josh> Bye all

<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0339.html

<sampablokuper> Sorry, what just happened?

<oedipus> i think the meeting ended and they are wrapping the minutes from the IRC log

I proposed to postpone the remaining agenda and adjourn, and all agreed, sampablokuper

<sampablokuper> Thanks, DanC

the IRC channel was used for a mix of ordinary IRC chat and transcribing the teleconference; I didn't recruit a dedicated scribe, so it's a bit chaotic.

ah. I wonder how to fix that, oedipus

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Phillip/Philip/
No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: DanC_lap
Inferring Scribes: DanC_lap
Default Present: +1.218.340.aaaa, +1.858.354.aabb, +1.212.830.aacc, +049251280aadd, DanC, Julian, ChrisWilson, SteveF, Laura, Jerry_S, Dave_B, Josh
Present: +049251280aadd +1.212.830.aacc +1.218.340.aaaa +1.858.354.aabb ChrisWilson DanC Dave_B Gerrie_Shults Josh Julian Laura SteveF
Got date from IRC log name: 21 Feb 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: 5 dan draft for gregory html spec stevef text with work

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