See also: IRC log
<RelDrgn> hm, I predict that this is probably a wholly inappropriate place to mention this, but the last revision of Overview.html truncated the file in the middle (Changes since 1.425: +1 -30610 lines)
<RelDrgn> (referring to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ )
<hsivonen> are the video workshop minutes Member-only on purpose? I though they were supposed to be public after a review
<MikeSmith> hsivonen - URL?
<hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/minutes
<hsivonen> linked from the w3.org front page
<MikeSmith> OK, I'll ask Philippe now
<hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
<MikeSmith> hsivonen - Philippe's not online, so I went ahead and set it to public. The fact that it's linked to on the home page without a "[member only]" note seems to suggest it definitely was not intended to be member-only
<MikeSmith> thanks for the heads-up
<hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
<zcorpan> i apologize for initiating a bikeshed topic on public-html
cite element? or something else, zcorpan ? (I keep forgetting the relationship between IRC nicks and email names)
<zcorpan> DanC_lap: target=_blank
<Julian> zcorpan: I think it's a good discussion to have (target=_blank)
<zcorpan> Julian: sure
<zcorpan> Julian: though, that thread seems to have turned into a bikeshed by now :)
<Julian> zcorpan: I admit I didn't read all of it.
the _blank thread looks mostly healthy; I just wish some test-case-elves were following along.
<Philip> What kind of test case would help that thead?
one where the input document has target="_blank" and the output is "conforming" or "non-conforming"
better if the input documents capture some use cases, such as gmail
the output could also be: new window allowed/required/forbidden
allowed + browser-makes-new-window = pass
allowed + brosers-uses-same-window = pass
required + browser-uses-same-window = fail
forbidden + browser-mades-new-window = fail
<zcorpan> the thread isn't about what browsers do, but about whether _blank should be conforming for authors
it makes a WG decision straghtforward to phrase
<Steve_f> dan: is the meeting happening now or have i got the times wrong?
<Gerrie> Gerrie Shults, not Jerry
<Gerrie> Gerrie Shulte
<Gerrie> Gerrie Shults
Gerrie Shults / HP
Joshue O Connor
is issue ISSUE-14 aira-role the same as issue-35?
next meeting 28 Feb, Chris W. to chair (4pm Pacific time)
<Steve_f> dan: for issue 35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0275.html
issue-36 is a design issue...
see also ISSUE-16 (edit)
issue-16 is a requirements/scope issue
Dave, is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0288.html the message you're speaking of?
<ChrisWilson> agrees with Dan - but doesn't understand if "SQL-lite" is descriptive enough to go with currently.
<anne> it's SQLite
<ChrisWilson> sorry, someone else mis-typed in an email, and I haven't finished my first cup of coffee.
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-13 -- Chris Wilson to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
<gsnedders> What version of SQLite? Do we have to copy bugs from SQLite?
<anne> ChrisWilson, no need for apologies, just making sure everyone is talking about the same thing :)
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-13 Talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion closed
<DavidFBills> I guess the real question would be whether it would follow the feature set or actually implement the actual code
<ChrisWilson> So Anne, since you're not on the phone - the question is "is 'SQLite' a defined enough, interoperable spec to refer to?"
<anne> Probably not. As I said on the mailing list, the plan is to wait for two implementations and to define it then
<gsnedders> ChrisWilson: SQLite supports most of SQL92 — I think requiring SQL92 support would be easier
<anne> You don't want all of SQL anyway, as some features don't make sense for client-side storage
<anne> (encodings, transactions, etc. should probably all be banned from the language as far as this API is concerned)
<gsnedders> That's true, but it's probably better to define what we need in terms of SQL92 than any implementation
<anne> I don't see why it needs to be in terms of something else, one more level of indirection
CW: I talked with Chaals about
WebAPI/HTML boundaries... they're being re-chartered...
... I think we can find editors too...
<DavidFBills> anne: I agree
<scribe> ACTION: Dan check for offline api stuff in WebAPI proposed charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-53 - Check for offline api stuff in WebAPI proposed charter [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-28].
<Josh> IRC is go ;-)
<ChrisWilson> agrees with anne - I'd rather NOT have a level of indirection, unless the redirection is to a very definitive specification.
<oedipus> Extensible HyperText Markup Language Vocabulary namespace
a periodic survey of top web sites
* M. Jackson Wilkinson
* Sean Fraser
* Terry Morris
* Serdar Kiliç
* Rene Saarsoo
* Patrick Taylor
* Roman Kitainik
* James VanDyke
* Craig Saila
* Michael Turnwall
* Benjamin Hedrington
* Karl Dubost
* Marco Battilana
* Andrew Smith
* Shawn Medero
* Eric Eggert
* Ben Millard
* Thomas Bradley
* Mark Martin
* Balakumar Muthu
* Justin Thorp
* Samuel Santos
* Karl Groves
DanC: Joshue, did you look at missing alt in your video survey?
Joshue: no, but could do...
<Josh> Would be glad to provide video footage to supplement discussion on @alt issue
"the failure of the HTML5 draft to make
@alt on <img> an across-the-board requirement (even if sometimes
it has the value of "") is a bug."
<ChrisWilson> if it's required but allowed to be "", why is that any better? Is there a pointer to that discussion somewhere?
<Josh> The null alt value is ignored by Assistive Technology for one thing.
<gsnedders> ChrisWilson: the rational seems to be it "is inconsistent with WCAG"
<ChrisWilson> @Josh I think you're agreeing?
<gsnedders> (I've never seen any better rational than that, even if there is some)
<ChrisWilson> @gsnedders umm. yeah.
<smedero> What is considered a valid source of the "top web sites" if anyone wanted to fire off a crawling job? Alexa's "Top 500 Global Sites"? http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?ts_mode=global&lang=none
<zcorpan> ChrisWilson: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute
<smedero> I find Alexa to be of questionable trust with respect to traffic numbers but... I don't know who else is publishing something like this... particularly something that either has an XML feed or a screen-scrape friendly front-end for automating the crawl.
<Josh> @Chris, am not sure yet what I am agreeing to ;-)
<anne> the PFWG actually failed to address our concerns
<oedipus> there is going to be the possibility of a null value for an attribute, and in the case of ALT, that should be a "reserved character" -- if you use alt="" it will be skipped and you better damn well make sure that it was only decorative (or a spacer)
<anne> their argument boils down to: "it should be invalid"
<oedipus> how so, anne
<Josh> @Chris One concern is that making the alt value optional send the wrong message to bad developers
<sampablokuper> Are spacer graphics still considered okay?
<zcorpan> sampablokuper: no (they never were)
<sampablokuper> right; thanks for confirming.
<Josh> That they can somehow ignore it, which in some cases they can (Spacers or presentation graphics/icons with null values are Ok etc)
<oedipus> no, spacer gifs are supposed to be supplanted by CSS, but then again, HTML4.x also formally deprecated use of BLOCKQUOTE for stylistic reasons, but like spacers, they continue to be everywhere
<anne> they can also ignore it by setting alt=randomValue
<anne> which is the point the PFWG failed to address
<Philip> sampablokuper, the current HTML5 draft says "The img must not be used as a layout tool. In particular, img elements should not be used to display fully transparent images, as they rarely convey meaning and rarely add anything useful to the document."
<Josh> @sampa Do you mean spacers GIFs as opposed to icon type or button graphics?
<Philip> (though that makes some of my canvas test cases non-conforming)
<sampablokuper> @Josh I was referring to the comment by oedipus above
<zcorpan> Philip: (test cases don't need to be conforming)
<Josh> @sampa no worries
<oedipus> sampablokuper, did you get my reply
<sampablokuper> oedipus, yes, thanks
<oedipus> when you use @foo all 4 screen readers i have here choke and don't speak the word -- that's why i don't like the @foo attribute shorthand
<scribe> ACTION: SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - SteveF
<Josh> back in a minnute
oedipus, can I assign this action to you, for admin purposes?
<oedipus> yes, dan
<scribe> ACTION: Gregory work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-54 - Work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2008-02-28].
<oedipus> there also is an ancient "accessibility" trick from the days of HTML Wilbur, where one would use invisible 1 pixel images to provide "unobtrusive" context; something now supplanted by WCAG2 Technique C7 (use of overflow to "hide" extra contenxtualizing text to a link that visually says "Real More..." or "See Also..." multiple times on a page
<dfbills> oh the dreaded spacer.gif
"Can we get access to tools that determine how often markup is used on the web?"
<dfbills> I've always found it interesting that img alt tags are designed for accessibility, but the most common use would be in lightweight or mobile browsers where the overhead in byte-count actually slows the loading of the code over the network.
CW: clearly these tools are valuable; Microsoft has some and in some cases I might be able to use them for HTML WG purposes
[somebody]: and Ian Hickson can do queries at google sometimes
<dfbills> Is anyone providing it on the web? or at least statistics similar to netcraft with the server stats?
<scribe> ACTION: Dan ask the TAG about tag soup measurement techniques [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-55 - Ask the TAG about tag soup measurement techniques [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-28].
<gsnedders> dfbills: Philip Taylor has some data at <http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index>
<smedero> It seems like the real issue with the markup analyzation isn't the tools so much as the web-scale data mining hassles.
<Steve_f> apologies, have to leave now.
<oedipus> GJR: i just commented on this issue - i think it is malformed
<dfbills> smedero: sure- that's why we should target someone with access to search engine data or browser development tools
<Josh> Bye all
<sampablokuper> Sorry, what just happened?
<oedipus> i think the meeting ended and they are wrapping the minutes from the IRC log
I proposed to postpone the remaining agenda and adjourn, and all agreed, sampablokuper
<sampablokuper> Thanks, DanC
the IRC channel was used for a mix of ordinary IRC chat and transcribing the teleconference; I didn't recruit a dedicated scribe, so it's a bit chaotic.
ah. I wonder how to fix that, oedipus
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Phillip/Philip/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: DanC_lap Inferring Scribes: DanC_lap Default Present: +1.218.340.aaaa, +1.858.354.aabb, +1.212.830.aacc, +049251280aadd, DanC, Julian, ChrisWilson, SteveF, Laura, Jerry_S, Dave_B, Josh Present: +049251280aadd +1.212.830.aacc +1.218.340.aaaa +1.858.354.aabb ChrisWilson DanC Dave_B Gerrie_Shults Josh Julian Laura SteveF Got date from IRC log name: 21 Feb 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-html-wg-minutes.html People with action items: 5 dan draft for gregory html spec stevef text with work WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]