15 Feb 2008


See also: IRC log


Doyle, Shadi, Andrew, Jack, Loughborough, Alan, Sylvie, Sharron, Liam
Henny, Liam, Lisa
Andrew, Shadi


Mobile Web and Accessibility Overlap Documents

<andrew> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html

Andrew: We'll work through this document in reverse order...follow the links to the part where the documents are compared

Alan: Perhaps the two section headings should have a more explanatory text

Andrew: Yes, you might use bold text to help clarify.

Alan: but not use section heading?

Andrew: yes
... EO members, please email any typos or minor items that you find to the list. Are there any other kinds of comments on this section?

Shadi: Shall we take a minute to let everyone read it?

sharron: I have a question about the phrase "mobile aware."

alan: Yes it may be unclear to those focused on accessibility...may need a link to further explain what is meant.

<scribe> ACTION: consider linking text "mobile aware" to explanation and/or change log [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action01]

William: The content can't really be "mobile aware" can it?

Shadi: I have seen the phrase "mobile friendly," would that work?

Andrew: "Mobile friendly" may make more sense to an accessibility audience and avoid the need for a linked explanation
... Alan, does the mobile group use the phrase "friendly?"

Alan: yes

Andrew: what does EO think of the example provided?

William: It makes sense to me.

Alan: But it may need more explanation to mobile people

Andrew: Can you make explicit the WCAG version that is referenced?

Alan: Which paragraph?
... I expected the context to explain.

Andrew: I think it needs further clarity

<scribe> ACTION: Alan to clarify which WCAG version is referenced [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Alan: Is it clear that there are two lists, the second one with greater detail?
... perhaps it needs to state that there are two lists and a brief description of each.

Andrew: yes, agreed that a description would be useful.
... any other comments?
... Then let's scroll down to the part where MWBP is mapped to WCAG criteria

Alan: Is this an adequate description of how people with disabilities are helped by these techniques?

William: Well, it makes people aware who were unaware that there are disbilities other than blindness. Anything that does that is beneficial.

Andrew: The table with the Access Keys and how it helps PWD...any comments?

Jack: It seems like an odd sentence, doesn't quite seem right

Alan: Yes it needs to change, others have commented as well.

<scribe> ACTION: Alan to change sentence that currently reads "How does it help especially users with disabilities?" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Andrew: In addition to those with motor disabilities, doesn't it also help those with visual disabilities. Access keys are announced by JAWS, etc
... Shadi, any comment about the term "motor disabilities" and W3C usage?

Shadir: I think it is OK, although we usually use "physical disability," but it is really not an issue with W3C usage. The question is accuracy...which phrase has the most specific meaning. This usage does not bother me.

William: No, it should not be "physical" because that is too broad and the description should also recognize the benefit to cognitive disability.

Andrew: Can you elaborate on that?

William: A list of access keys can help those with memory loss
... having an immediate way to get to an access key list makes all the difference in the world.

Alan: MWBP often includes the access key in the text, unlike standard web sites

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/#motordisab

Shadi: I looked up motor disability and physical disability and found them used interchangably

William: We have now mentioned cognitive, visual, and motor disabilities. I wonder if a bulleted list may be useful?

Shadi: Maybe before "How does it Help...", include a list of which users are helped?
... currently there are two sections...I am suggesting a third section titled "Who Does it Help," that lists those disabilities that are supported by the technique in discussion.
... comment on compliance - I believe this is an advisory technique.
... the question about WCAG compliance is the wrong question because we hardly ever answer it "yes." Maybe it should be phrased as "How does it relate to WCAG."

William: The idea of compliance may be too strict, so I agree it may be the wrong question.

Alan: But people want to know about compliance, they want a yes or no answer. They want to know do I need to do more, how much more. Most are interested in compliance. Not accessibility for its own sake.

william: At CalWAC I was startled by how much accessibility had been accepted for its own sake.

Shadi: Motivations aside, there is not a one-to-one mapping for most of these points, so emphasis may more effectively be placed on best practice.

Alan: Mappings are often not useful since they are so qualified. So what you are suggesting is something more vague, but finally perhaps more useful. I'll confer with the others on the list.

<scribe> ACTION: Alan to consider rephrase of "compliance" section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Andrew: Move down a bit further in the document to AutoRefresh section...let people just read that section.

Alan: Remember that it is intended mostly for the mobile web groups who are not as familiar with accessibility.

Andrew: Comments?

william: It says screenreaders, but after seeing low vision set up and high magnification, it may help for screenreaders, but may can be confusing for magnification.

Shadi: ...and cognitive disabilities.

Andrew: reading difficulties specifically.

William: It is the thing that makes me curse the computer when it does it, because it can be a mind boggler.

Alan: But with mobile, it is a way to avoid paying for the bandwidth..

Andrew: a few suggestions for expanding the beneficiaries there

Shadi: I am fearing how long the document will become, we have added quite a bit already.

Alan: Originally it was one page, now has been split into 5

Andrew: And this one is more than 20 odd printed pages.
... are there comments on the compliance section of this point?

Alan: I tried to use words like partially, possibly, etc

William: But back to the length, if it is an issue perhaps you can put explanations in a linked page. Or use the expansion and contraction possibility to make it less bulky.

Alan: There are some links to compliance references, to summaries, and to success criteria.

Andrew: And that is useful because it allows you to discover which items are related to which success criteria.

Alan: It saves searching through documents.

Shadi: I think it is fine like this.

Andrew: Then let's have a look at the next section.

Alan: The idea here is to minimize keystrokes

Andrew: Can you use "previously" or "below" in referencing the information

William: It is a very significant thing for many people.

Andrew: People with limited language for example.

william: In fact I am surprised it is not addressed in WCAG

Andrew: There is always WCAG 3 or 4

william: I hope I live that long.

Andrew: I hope you do, too William.
...On to "background images"

Alan: The idea here is that on mobile devices you can't really turn off background images

William: As a comment on aging, color/contrast is becoming a major problem for me...the issue of background images has similar significance. Do mobile techniques include this consideration?

Andrew: That particular point is addressed later on, not specifically right here.

Alan: And I am not confident about compliance to that issue.

William: A background color is a background image if you want to look at it that way.

Andrew: Any other comments? Alan, are you able to stay?

Alan: Yes, another one then.

Andrew: Is this the type of feedback you need?

Alan: Yes

Alan: We are now discussing "balance" the question of too many links on a page vs asking the user to navigate through many links to get where they are going.

Shadi: WCAG has a different focus and so that is likely why they don't map exactly...is that discussed somewhere?

Alan: The balance question is not testable, for one thing, it is too vague and subjective.

Shadi: But beyond testable, it is not really on its own, an accessibility issue

William: Except the "clear and simple" admonition. It affects clarity, is the idea of "clear and simple" still in WCAG?

Alan: Now it is expressed in more quantifiable terms like reading age.
... We are finding difficulties in creating tests.

<andrew> liam - see http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#BALANCE

Shadi: Is there somewhere in the document an explanation of the different mindset behind the mobile web BP and WCAG?

Alan: Not really...that might be a good idea.

William: Mobile is a defacto assistive technology.

Alan: But in another way it is the opposite, because disability is imposed by the device and results in shared barriers

william: The device itself is an assistive technology when looking at the web...almost like a user.

Andrew: You know there is a web there, but can't access it entirely.

Shadi: If you follow that thought, you would expect more overlap of the documents MWBP and WCAG. But the different perspectives prevent this.

William: I agree

Sharron: I agree that an explanation of the two perspectives would help clarify all that comes after.

Andrew: It would be a very useful addition, agreed

Alan: I'll incorporate these comments for next week

<scribe> ACTION: Shadi to summarize different perspectives of WCAG and MWBP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Shadi: A quick reminder to send comments for MWBP / WCAG documents to the list so they can be considered in advance of the next meeting. The topic will be on the agenda again next week.

Web Accessibility and Ageing Task Force Work Statement

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2007/waa-tf.html

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WAI-AGE/

Shadi: This topic is related to the WAI-Age project and is meant to harmonize our efforts going forward. We are seeking to learn more to improve our own work. Before we look at the task force statement, I will ask Andrew, who is the lead on the WAI-AGE project to introduce it.

<shadi> [Andrew gives a more elaborated introduction to the WAI-AGE Project, and to some of its work]

Andrew: The WAI-AGE project is funded by the European Commission, and is based on the fact that as people age they tend to acquire disabilities. Globally, the population is aging, with baby boomers moving into retirement. Many countries are addressing these issues of the aging population. We want to consider the research, to examine the issues of aging as it relates to our work, and to bring various working groups into harmony. Another aspect of the project is how to integrate the WAI-AGE work into EOWG materials. Our focus has previously been on people who were born with disabilities or acquired them early in life. Now we want to consider whether we can expand existing materials to include the needs of people who are slowily acquiring disability with age or if we need to generate new materials specific to their needs, or some combination of the two.

William: One slightly different focus is that the notion of retirement itself is changing
... instead of fishing, we see someone who maintains connection to web and doing work rather than quitting
... I am finding that this very widespread, the notion that people can continue to participate and contribute. And that makes the inaccessibility of the web even more significant.

Jack: Many companies are looking at population demographics and needs of workers and that significant numbers are retiring. They are considering options to maintain continuity, involving remote work, part time, and distance employment.

Doyle: Working remotely is a growing option and the likely impact of that is that the mobile web will become more of an important element as a result.

Shadi: Agreed.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2007/waa-tf.html

Shadi: If there are no more questions or comments about the overall project focus, let's look at the work statement.

<andrew> Shadi slips and tells everyone twice a week teleconferences ;)

Shadi: In the future, we may bring some of the Task Force work to EO for comment. Length of project is expected to extend for 2 or 2 1/2 years and will overlap soemwhat with EO
... has everyone read the documents?

all: yes, OK

Shadi: First we want to consider the scope of the Task Force, how it relates to EO and eventually get EO approval of the approach.
... let's go through the objectives, any comments or thoughts on this?

Jack: elaborate, please on "advising"...what are you describing?

Shadi: The first phase is a literature review which Andrew is working fiercly on. What research has been done on web design for aging people
... then to map such research back to guidelines and identify gaps.
... we hope to have a preliminary map for the EO group and solicit comment about the search itself. If we have missed sources, if we need to widen focus, or other observations about preliminary work.

Andrew: While we are trying to be thorough, we welcome your resources and comments on emphasis.

Shadi: Jack, does that answer your questions?

Jack: It sounds like you are producing two things: a draft that summarizes what is out there, and a solicitation to EO to fill in gaps.

Shadi: Maybe more to help us find gaps, not necessarily to fill in those gaps.
... the role of the Task Force is much more advisory, most of the work is to review and provide input on how we can establish dialogue, build networks.

William: How is the input incorporated into the work of the task force?

Andrew: This is expected to be more of a reference group than what has traditionally been a task force

Shadi: Let's consider the approach section of the draft. It is basically an elaboration of how we anticipate to approach the achievement of the objectives previously stated.
... Communication is the next section, a fairly boilerplate description of how we will meet and teleconference, etc
... we expect meetings to often occur as part of EO meetings and we include links to past minutes.
... we estimate about 2-4 hours per week and do not anticipate high traffic on the list.
... if interested in this task force, please contact Andrew. Must be member of EO working group to participate.
... so far Helle, William, Judy, Shadi, Andrew

William: sounds like a dream team

Shadi: if no further comments or questions, we can call it a meeting.

Liam: Sounds good, let's get going

Doyle: Congratulations Andrew.

<LiamMcGee> Congrats Andrew

Shadi: My colleagues Shawn and Judy agree that we are delighted to have Andrew on board.
... next week will talk about Mobile Web work and perhaps a first draft from the Task Force.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: consider linking text "mobile aware" to explanation and/or change log [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Alan to clarify which WCAG version is referenced [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Alan to change sentence that currently reads "How does it help especially users with disabilities?" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Alan to consider rephrase of "compliance" section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Shadi to summarize different persepctives of WCAG and MWBP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action05]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2010/07/27 18:38:05 $