See also: IRC log
<shadi> scribe: Sharron
<scribe> Meeting: EOWG
<scribe> Chair: Shadi / Andrew
Andrew: We'll work through this document in reverse order...follow the links to the part where the documents are compared
s/Alan/Andrew
Alan: perhaps the two section headings should have more explanatory text
Andrew: maybe use bold text to help clarify
Alan: but not use section heading?
Andrew: yes
... email any typos or minor items that you find to the
list.
... any other kinds of comments on this section?
Shadi: Shall we take a minute to let everyone read it?
sharron: question the phrase "mobile aware"
alan: yes it may be unclear to those focused on accessibility...may need a link
<scribe> ACTION: consider linking text "mobile aware" to explanation and/or change log [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action01]
William: content can't really be "mobile aware" can it?
Shadi: have seen phrase "mobile friendly"
Andrew: may make more sense to
accessibility audience, avoid need for linked explanation
... does the mobile group use the phrase "freindly"
Alan: yes
Andrew: what does the group think of the example provided?
William: makes sense
Alan: perhaps needs more explanation to mobile people
Andrew: should we make WCAG version explicit?
Alan: which paragraph?
... I expected context to explain.
Andrew: I think it needs clarity
<scribe> ACTION: Alan to clarify which WCAG version is referenced [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Alan: is it clear that there are
two lists, the second one with greater detail?
... perhaps it needs to state that there are two lists and a
brief description of each.
Andrew: yes, agreed.
... any other comments?
... Then let's scroll down to the part where it is mapped to
WCAG criteria
Alan: is this an adequate description of how people with disabilities are helped by these techniques?
William: it makes people aware who were unaware that there are disbilities other than blindness. Anything that does that is beneficial.
Andrew: the table with the Access Keys and how it helps PWD...any comments?
Jack: seems like an odd sentence, doesn't quite seem right
Alan: yes it needs to change, others have commented as well.
<scribe> ACTION: Alan to change sentence that currently reads "How does it help especially users with disabilities?" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Andrew: in addition to those with
motor disabilities, doesn't it also help those with visual
disabilities. Access keys are announced by JAWS, etc
... Shadi, any comment about the term "motor disabilities" and
W3C usage?
Shadir: Think it is OK, although we ususally use "physical disability," but really not an issue with W3C usage. The question is accuracy...which has the most specific meaning. This isage does not bother me.
William: should not be "physical" because that is too broad and should alos recognize the benefit to cognitive disability
Andrew: can you elaborate?
William: list of keys can help
those with memory loss
... having immediate way to get to access key list makes all
the difference in the worl.
Alan: often put access key in the text unlike standard web sites
Andrew: there are a couple of ideas for you, Alan.
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/#motordisab
Shadi: I looked up motor disabilities and found it is used interchangably
William: we have now mentioned cognitive, visual, motor disabilities. I wonder if a bulleted list may be useful?
Shadi: Maybe before how does it
help, include a list of which users are helped?
... currently there are two sections...I am suggesting a third
section titled Who Does it Help, that lists those disabilities
that are supported.
... comment on compliance - I beleive this is an advisory
technique.
... the question about WCAG compliance is the wrong question
because we hardly ever answer it "yes." Maybe it should be
phrased as "How does it relate to WCAG."
William: The idea of compliance may be too strict, so I agree it may be the wrong question.
Alan: But people want to know
about compliance, they want a yes or no answer.
... do I need to do more, how much more, most are interested in
compliance.
william: At CalWAC I was startled by how much accessibility had been accepted for its own sake.
Shadi: Motivations aside, there is not a one-to-one mapping for most of these points, an emphasis may more effectively be placed on best practice.
Alan: Mappings are often not useful since they are so qualified. So what you are suggesting is soemthing more vague, but finally perhaps more useful. I'll confer with the others on the list.
<scribe> ACTION: Alan to consider rephrase of "compliance" section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Andrew: Move down a bit further in the document to AutoRefresh section...let people just read that section.
Alan: remember that it is intended mostly for the mobile web groups who are not as familiar with accessibility.
Andrew: comments?
william: It says screenreaders, but after seeing low vision set up and hgh magnification, it may help screenreader, but may be confusing for magnification.
Shadi: ...and cognitive disabilities
Andrew: reading difficulties specifically
William: it the thing that makes me curse the computer when it does it, because it can be a mind boggler
Alan: but with mobile, it is a way to avoid paying for the bandwidth..
Andrew: a few suggestions for expanding the beneficiaries there
Shadi: I am fearing how long the document will become, we have added quite a bit already.
Alan: originally it was one page, now has been split into 5
Andrew: this one is more than 20
odd printed pages.
... comments on compliance section?
Alan: I tried to use words like partially, possibly, etc
William: back to the length, if it is an issue perhaps you can put explanations in a linked page. Or use the expansion and contraction possibility to make it les bulky.
Alan: There are some links to compliance references, to summaries, and to success criteria.
Andrew: it is useful because it allows you to discover which items are related to which success criteria
Alan: saves searching through document
Shadi: think it is fine like this
Andrew: Let's have a look at the next section.
Alan: The idea is to minimize keystrokes
Andrew: Can you use previously or below in referencing the information
William: It is a very significant thing for many people
Andrew: people with limited language for example
william: in fact I am surprised it is not addressed in WCAG
Andrew: On to "background images"
Alan: The idea here is that on mobile devices you can't really turn off background images
William: A comment on aging, Color/contrast is becoming a major problem for me...this issue has similar significance. Do mobile techniques include this consideration?
Andrew: that particular point is addressed later on
Alan: I am not confident about compliance to that issue
William: a background color is a background image if you want to look at it that way
Andrew: any other comments? Alan, are you able to stay?
Alan: yes, another one then
Andrew: Is this the type of feedback you need?
Alan: yes
<sylvie> Speech fully disabled.
Alan: now discussing "balance" the question of too many links on a page and asking user to navigate through many links to get where they are going
Shadi: WCAG has a different focus and so that is likely why they don't map exactly...is that discussed somewhere?
Alan: it is not testable, for one thing, too vague
Shadi: but beyond testable, it is not rally on its own an accessibility issue
except the "clear and simple" admonition. It affects clarity.
Alan: now it is expressed in more
quantifiable terms like reading age.
... We are finding difficulties in creating tests.
<andrew> liam - see http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#BALANCE
<andrew> liam - see http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#BALANCE
Shadi: I sthere somehwere in the document that explains the different mindset behind the mobile web BP and WCAG?
Alan: not really...that might be a good idea
William: mobile is a defacto assistive technology
Alan: but in another way it is the opposite, because disability is imposed by the device and share barriers
william: the device itself is an assistive technology when looking at the web...almost like a user
Andrew: you know there is a web there, but can't access it entirely.
Shadi: if you follow the theough, you would expect more overlap of the documents MWBP and WCAG. Different perspectives prevent this.
Sharron: agree
William: I agree
Sharron: agree that an explanation of the two perspectives would help clarify all that comes after
Andrew: a useful perspective to add, agreed
Alan: I'll incorporate these comments for next week
<scribe> ACTION: Shadi to summarize different persepctives of WCAG and MWBP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Shadi: send comments for previous topic to the list so they can be considered in advance of the meeting
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2007/waa-tf.html
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WAI-AGE/
Shadi: Related to WAI-Age project to harmonize efforts going forward. To learn more to improve our own work. Before we look at the task force statement, will ask Andrew, who is the lead on the WAI-AGE project to introduce it.
<shadi> [Andrew gives a more elaborated introduction to the WAI-AGE Project, and to some of its work]
Andrew: Project is funded by European Commission, as people age they tend to acquire disabilities. Population is aging with baby boomers moving into retirement. Many countries addressing these issues of aging population. We want to consider the research, the issues of agin as it relates to our work and bring various working groups into harmony. Another aspect is how to integrate the WAI-AGE work into EOWG materials. Focus has previously been on people who were b
William: slightly different focus
in that notion of retirement is changing
... instead of fishing, we see someone who maintains connection
to web and doing work rather than quitting
... finding this very widespread, the notion that people can
continue to participate and contribute and inaccessibility of
the web is significant
Jack: Many companies are looking at population demographics and needs of workers and that significant numbers are retiring. Condering options to maintain continuity, involving remote work, part time, and distance employment.
Doyle: Working remotely is a growing option and the likely impact of that the mobile web will become more of an important element of that
Shadi: agreed
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2007/waa-tf.html
Shadi: if no more questions about the overall project focus, let's look at the work statement
<andrew> shadi slips and tell everyone twice a week teleconferences ;)
Shadi: In the future, we may
bring some of the Task Force work to EO for comment. Length of
project is expected to extend for 2 or 2 1/2 years and will
overlap soemwhat with EO
... has everyone read the documents?
all: yes, OK
Shadi: first the scope of the
Task Force, how it relates to EO and get EO approval of the
approach.
... let's go through the objectives, any comments or thoughts
on this?
Jack: elaborate, please on advising..what are you describing
Shadi: first phase is literature
review which Andrew is working fiercly on. What research has
been done on designing for aging people
... then to map these back to guidelines and identify
gaps
... hope to have a preliminary map for the EO group and solicit
comment about the search itself, if we have missed sources, if
we need to widen focus, etc
Andrew: while we are trying to be thorough, we welcome your resources and comments on emphasis.
Shadi: Jack, does that answer your questions?
Jack: It sounds like you are producing two things: a draft summarizes what is out there, a solicittin to EO to fill in gaps.
Shadi: Maybe more to help us find
gaps, not necessarily to fill in those gaps.
... the role of the Task Force is much more advisory, most of
work is to review and provide input on how we can establish
dialogue, build networks
William: how the input is incorporated into work of task force
Andrew: this is more of a reference group than what has traditionally been a task force
Shadi: let's consider approach
section...basically an elaboration of how we anticipate to
approach the achievement of the objectives
... Communication is next section, fairly boilerplate about how
we will meet and teleconference, etc
... often as part of EO meetings, links to past minutes
... estimate about 2-4 hours per week, don't anticipate high
traffic on the list.
... if interested in this task force, please contact Andrew.
Must be member of EO working group to participate.
... so far Helle, William, Judy, Shadi, Andrew
William: sounds like a dream team
Shadi: if no furhter comments or questions, we can call it a meeting.
Liam: Sounds good, let's get going
Doyle: Congratualtions Andrew
<LiamMcGee> Congrats Andrew
Shadi: My colleagues Shawn and
Judy agree we are delighted to have Andrew on board
... next week will talk about Mobile Web work and perhaps a
first draft of the Task Force.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Alan/Andrew/ FAILED: s/Alan/Andrew/ Succeeded: s/on/one/ Succeeded: s/foucs/focus/ Succeeded: s/acheivment/achievement/ Found Scribe: Sharron Inferring ScribeNick: sharron Default Present: doyle, Shadi, andrew, Jack, Loughborough, achuter, Sylvie, +1.512.305.aaaa, Sharron, +0137383aabb, Liam Present: doyle Shadi andrew Jack Loughborough achuter Sylvie +1.512.305.aaaa Sharron +0137383aabb Liam Regrets: Henny Liam Lisa Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2008JanMar/0089.html Got date from IRC log name: 15 Feb 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-eo-minutes.html People with action items: alan aware consider linking mobile shadi text[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]