<jjc2> wrong bijan: *I* say something

<bijan> see?

<jjc2> This dodgy connection problem again ...

<Conrad> ScribeNick:Conrad

<alanr> trackbot help

<alanr> akim help

<alanr> zakim help

<bijan> can anyone here me?

<bijan> Carsten, is uli calling it with you?

<Ratnesh> ratnesh from DERI

<alanr> ACTION: Sandro will check with Josh about UFDTF zakim setup for tomorrow [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-9 - Will check with Josh about UFDTF zakim setup for tomorrow [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-11-21].

<sandro> (the echo went away with jjc muted)

<sandro> Ratnesh, type: "Zakim, unknown is me"

<Ratnesh> unknown is me

<sandro> Ratnesh, you need need the leading "Zakim, "

<bijan> I had an email about datetypes as well which might be helpful: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0052.html

Alan added items to the previoous agenda.

<alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions

Correction: Alan added items to the previoous minutes.

<bijan> Here: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.07/Minutes#Summary_of_Action_Items

<pfps> other business - the status of ISSUE-14

Discussion of how actionitems from previous action items didn't makte it into previous minutes.

<alanr> ACTION: Boris to send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-10 - Send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28 [on Boris Motik - due 2007-11-21].

<alanr> ACTION: Boris to send an email on issue 3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-11 - Send an email on issue 3 [on Boris Motik - due 2007-11-21].

<alanr> ACTION: pfps to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps

<alanr> ACTION: peter to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-12 - Send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-11-21].

<bijan> Like: ACTION: ian to send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f

<bijan> ACTION: ian to send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-13 - Send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f [on Ian Horrocks - due 2007-11-21].

<Uli> but this email has been sent out?

<pfps> there are also lots of order issues in last week's minutes and lack of context

Discussion of minutes editing, remove "chit chat", general readability, 20-30 minutes in cleanup.

<bijan> I suggest we accept the uncleanuped minutes

<bijan> I mean, is there anything untrue in them?

<DougL> +1

<sandro> PROPOSED: accept previous minutes, as is

<pfps> -1

<bijan> +1 to accept

+1

<MartinD> +1

<Uli> +1

<MikeSmith> +1 to accept previous minutes

<Ratnesh> +1

<pfps> status of ISSUES 13 and 14

Vote on whether to accept uncleaned up minutes from previously.

<bijan> Weren't these resolved?

<sandro> Alan: Peter, is there something damaging about accepting these minutes if we agree future ones will be held to a higher standard?

<jjc> (I tend to feel that meeting mintues should be unanimous)

<alanr> +1

<jjc> I'll side with peter if it makes this easier

<ewallace> agree with Peter

<scribe> ACTION: Alan to clean up minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-14 - Clean up minutes [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].

<jjc> no

<sandro> proposal rejected

Vote and discussion result: not accept uncleaned up minutes.

<alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/4

<scribe> ACTION: Sandro to explain how to fix red names on wiki pages. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action08]

<ewallace> Peter notes that the syntax document is still missing all but its first figure

<scribe> ACTION: alan to To upload images. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action09]

<sandro> ACTION: Alan to upload the rest of the inline images in the Syntax document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-15 - Upload the rest of the inline images in the Syntax document [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].

<alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0283.html

April FTF

<bijan> Need a survey since most people are not on the call

+1

<pfps> Agree on the survey

<pfps> +1

<sandro> +1 tthese days are fine for me

<ewallace> Alan asks if people can make first wk in April for FTF2

<ewallace> +1

<pfps> wiki page looks good to me

<Ratnesh> +1 days are fine

<MikeSmith> + dates are fine

<pfps> and send email, I guess

<scribe> ACTION: peter to post survey on April FTF dates. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action11]

<Uli> 0 on the dates

<alanr> 0?

<Uli> 0= i am not sure yet, but i am afraid that i won't be able to make them

<sandro> ACTION: peter to make wiki page to get feedback on dates for F2F2, and send e-mail about it. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-16 - Make wiki page to get feedback on dates for F2F2, and send e-mail about it. [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-11-21].

<pfps> +1 to accept :-)

<bijan> +1 to accept

<MikeSmith> +1 to accept editorial issues (6,7,27,33,37)

<Ratnesh> +1 to accept

Alan surveys on closeing five issues in agenda

<jeremy> +1

<MartinD> +1

<DougL> +1 to accept editorial issues (6,7,27,33,37)

<jeremy> (I have fixed scribe conventions page wrt :)

<Uli> +1

<jeremy> wrt colon)

Resolved: Close issues 6,7,27,33,37 based on Peter's changes.

Datatype issues not in n-ary discussion

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/29

<jeremy> I do

<Uli> ...jeremy, i can barely understand you, you sound "muffled"?

<bijan> Really?!?!?

<bijan> What part of the rdf document forbids that?

<jeremy> ACTION jeremy to show why rdfs:datatype and owl:DataRange are different

<scribe> ACTION: jeremy to show why rdfs:datatype and owl:DataRange are different [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - jeremy

<DougL> Someone has their mike on, and it's causing a delayed feedback... please turn it off

<sandro> jeremy, could you please mute, due to echo?

<DougL> or switch to nonspeakerphone

<DougL> thanks

<jeremy> (feel free to mute me on my behalf if I forget)

Bijan: Using XML Schema's namespace requires doing in a way they can accept. In particular, need approval for using their namespace.
... A URI is different from a qualified name. Only true in RDF land.

<sandro> Bijan: A qname is *not* an abbreviation for a URI. It is a pair.

<sandro> Bijan: Concatenation is sanction by the RDF specs, for use in RDF -- but not widely accepted in XML.

<jeremy> +1 to giving XML Schema WG some say

<sandro> Bijan: If we're introducing an alternative serialization for XSD definitions, then XML Schema WG should be involved.

<sandro> Alan: One issue is polutiong (squatting) a namespace. Another is using a term the namespace publisher has defined.

<sandro> Peter: Yes, but XSD-WG did not define minInclusive, etc, as being in this namespace.

<alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0043.html

Bijan: Can't use existing element as attribute or vice-versa.

<sandro> Bijan: I think there's a syntax issue here, too, eg using minInclusive as an attribute when it's defined as an element, or some such.

Bijan; You can derive a URI from a qname, but the XML WG might not approve of the URI.

<alanr> even if they have defined the qname and used it

<pfps> there is a tag issue on this http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6

<alanr> Mike Smith is Liason to the XML Schema working group

<Carsten> After the discussion we had on of n-ary datatypes, I actually believe that using XML Schema for defining

<Carsten> datatypes is a very bad idea in general, i.e., *also for unary datatypes*. I am not sure, though, whether it

<Carsten> makes sense to bring this up now. I will write a mail.

<scribe> ACTION: Mike to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action14]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike

<scribe> ACTION: MikeSmith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action15]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MikeSmith

<bijan> I can't find the translation to RDF of the datatype facets

<sandro> ACTION: Smith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action16]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-17 - Take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [on Michael Smith - due 2007-11-21].

<jeremy> fine

<bijan> Ah, table 5

<scribe> ACTION: Jeremy to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action17]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeremy

<alanr> mike will spawn new issue, jeremy will add note to issue 29 saying it it narrower

Issue 31

<sandro> ACTION: Carroll to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action18]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Carroll

<sandro> trackbot-ng, list users

<sandro> trackbot-ng, help

<trackbot-ng> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)

<bijan> Did XML schema ever finish component designators?

<sandro> trackbot-ng, status

<Uli> jeremy, i still can't understand you

Alan: We can define datatypes in XML, and if we lefft everything alone, could import documents with XML datatypes. WOuld be annoying because of one file per datatype.

<Uli> it's an option, but do we need to take their semantics?

<ewallace> datatypes could be defined in one document

Jeremy: Can put multiple datatypes on same file with different ID's.

<Uli> i.e., do we need to take the XSD semantics as well if we use their datatypes?

<pfps> yes, that would assume that we take the XSD semantics - of course, we could restrict the allowable syntax (I guess)

<bijan> WE already do :)

<bijan> perhaps the liaison should ask

<bijan> I'm on the queue

<Zakim> bijan, you wanted to say we should pick a winner

<ewallace> -1 on not allowing use of outside defined xml datatypes if we are using the syntax

<jeremy> yes, I agree with Bijan too

<pfps> I don't see much need to either point to external XSD documents or reuse the XSD syntax

Bijan: Need both inlining and referencing datatypes.

<ewallace> if we use the XML syntax people are going to expect to be able to reuse XML datatypes

<pfps> If we do use the XSD syntax, then there is no reason not to allow pointing to external XSD documents

<Zakim> jeremy, you wanted to suggest way forward

Bijan: WOuld rather have one way of referencing datatypes.

Jeremy: Final document does have one way (picks a winner).

<bijan> -1 to not solving it even if XML Schema fails

Alan: Would be good to settle ourrequirements on this.

<pfps> it's not that we don't need the datatypes, it's that I don't think that we *need* the syntax

Alan: Heard four opinions on requirements so far.

<bijan> Submission doesn't make a choice

<pfps> no mechanism for datatype import in OWL 1.1

<ewallace> No.

Peter: No mechanism for datatype import in the member submission.

<jeremy> I think the BP WG Note should be on the table

Alan; Any objection to discussion on email on requirements?

<jeremy> jena uses that too

<jeremy> (that = DAML+OIL soln as documented in SWBP WG Note)

Bijan: No bias in sub mission against importing.

Evan: MIght as well use best practices, otherwise fall bak to inline.

<bijan> Some is better than none

<pfps> where is the DAML+OIL solution?

Alan: Agreement to discuss on mailing list?

<jeremy> In a version of BP note, maybe one before last

<bijan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-swbp-xsch-datatypes-20050427/#sec-daml-soln

<Zakim> jeremy, you wanted to note status

<scribe> ACTION: Mike to lead discussion on this. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action19]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike

<MikeSmith> conrad, I think it will work if you use Smith

<bijan> I would rather datatype identification be in a spec, near the inline syntax for user defined datatype, but that's fine

<bijan> +1 to getting info from XML Schema WG

Mike, I tried that earlier.

<ewallace> some bits of the issues Jeremy has brought up with n-ary datatype are also in the BP note

<ewallace> so this needs to be reviewed before this were to be published by us

<ewallace> I would like to be included in the datatypes discussion group

<bijan> What about XML SCheam syntax?

<jeremy> (I think I am done, but I am happy for others to continue)

<jeremy> no opinion

Clarification of Mike's last ACTION: to convene half-hour telecon on data types issue

<Uli> I would like to be included in the datatype sub-group discussion, too

Alan scribing

<Carsten> I would also like to be in the datatype group

Ontology elements.

<alanr> suggested in the xml syntax have a mandatory uri on the ontology

<MikeSmith> for xml schema discussion, I will use the minutes to co-ordinate info, if anyone else wants to be include, be sure to chime in here

<pfps> what happens with local names if you don't have an ontology name?

<alanr> relax that proposition

<pfps> ah, right, currently in OWL 1.1 there are no relative IRIs

<sandro> (sorry, do we have a scribe...?)

<bijan> No

<sandro> scribenick: alan

<alanr> alan raises imports processing issues in relations

<sandro> Bijan: Tools should not use the Ontology Name to check for inclusion cycles.

<sandro> Alan: but protege-4 does that.

<sandro> Bijan: I think that's a bug

<sandro> Alan: Matthew believes it's right, I think....

<sandro> Alan: And it's not that he's confused. He's sure his approach is right.

<sandro> Alan: If this issue can proceed independently, something something something.

<sandro> Bijan: Definition of ontology closure can be separated from ontology naming.

<alanr> the basic issue is what happens when you say owl:imports "foo"

<sandro> Bijan: We could just use XML Include, and things would come out pretty much the same.

<sandro> Bijan: If nothing else is different other than the ontology name.... I don't know what one would make of that.

<sandro> Bijan: Import closure reaches a fixpoint when doing more imports doesn't add anything.

<sandro> Alan: Your defining an import-processing-model, calling in 'include', in which the ontology name doesn't matter.

<pfps> in OWL 1.0 the ontology name doesn't matter

<pfps> in OWL 1.1 the ontology name does matter

<sandro> Peter: in 1.0 import is defined completely independently of ontology names.

<bijan> REALLY!?!??!!

<sandro> Peter: in 1.1, it's completely different. [ some O....O' definition ]

<bijan> Omg, OWL 1.1 is broken there

<sandro> Alan: If one wants to sign the ontology, ....

<bijan> """An ontology O directly imports an ontology O' if O contains an import declaration whose value is the ontology URI of O'."""

<sandro> Peter: I'm not saying what it should be, I'm saying what 1.1 says.

<bijan> I see why matthew was confused

<bijan> Because OWL 1.1 got it wrong :)

<sandro> Let's deprecate owl:imports!!!!!!!!!!

<bijan> +1 to xml:include

<bijan> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/direct.html#3.4

<bijan> Aside from this local meaning, an owl:imports annotation also imports the contents of another OWL ontology into the current ontology. The imported ontology is the one, if any, that has as name the argument of the imports construct. (This treatment of imports is divorced from Web issues. The intended use of names for OWL ontologies is to make the name be the location of the ontology on the Web, but this is outside of this formal treatment.)

<sandro> Alan: there is a requirement from users that people be able to sign their ontologies, include metadata, include versioning, ....

<ewallace> Alan notes a common requirement to annotate ontologies with metadata such as author

<sandro> Bijan: The 1.1 defn is a bug because it's less-liberal than 1.0, so it's not backward compatible.

<sandro> MikeSmith, when you use "/me" like that, it's left out of the IRC log.

<pfps> an email on problems with OWL 1.0 imports would be useful

<sandro> Bijan: I think we should align the current specs with OWL 1.1

<sandro> Bijan: ... and then think about a deeper redesign, eg using XML Include.

<ewallace> Alan proposes a breakout session at F2F1 where we can meet with Alan Rector, etc and talk about reqs

<sandro> Alan: I don't know anyone who like owl:import as is.

<ewallace> and possible designs to address them

<MikeSmith> I note (to be logged) that xml:include may be a path to datatype import as well. Something to revisit.

<Uli> sounds good

<alanr> ACTION: Alan to brain dump on owl imports issue to mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action20]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-18 - Brain dump on owl imports issue to mailing list [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].

<sandro> Peter: should rich annotations be on the agenda at F2F1?

<bijan> I believe alan rector is only available on the first day, but I shall check

<bijan> Sean and Matthew are available both days

<alanr> ACTION: Alan to include imports, possibility of annotations as subject for f2f [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html#action21]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-19 - Include imports, possibility of annotations as subject for f2f [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].

<sandro> ADJOURN

<alanr> Sandro, minutes?

<Uli> bye

<Ratnesh> Bye

<ewallace> rich annotations should be an agenda item on the next telecon

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128  of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

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Found ScribeNick: Conrad
Found ScribeNick: alan
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Scribes: Conrad, alan
ScribeNicks: Conrad, alan
Default Present: Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MikeSmith, MartinD, Carsten, ratnesh, jeremy
Present: Carsten Conrad Alan Sandro bijan MikeSmith pfps Doug Evan_Wallace MartinD jjc ratnesh

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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 14 Nov 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html
People with action items: alan boris carroll ian jeremy mike mikesmith peter pfps sandro smith

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