HTML Working Group November f2f Day One

8 Nov 2007

See also: IRC log


KarlDubost, MikkoHonkala, MichaelCooper, MarcinHanclik, HenriSivonen, JamesGraham, AnneVanKesteren, JoshueOConnor, MarcusMilke, BobHopgood, Mauro, TexTexin, TravisLeithead, MasatakaYakura, KazuhitoKidachi, DaveSinger, MaciejStokowiak, DavidBaron, LeslieMansell, AaronLeventhal, MikeSmith, ShawnMedero, NoahMendelsohn, ShawnHenry, OlivierTheroux, EdwardOConnor_IRC_only, BertBos, GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only, LachlanHunt_IRC_only, GavinSharp_IRC_only, DimitriGlazkov_IRC_only, KevinLawver, BenMillard, SeanMedero, PatrickIon, ChrisRowland, SteveFaulkner, Håkon, ScottVesey, NickVanDenBleeken, DanielZucker, TonyGrasso, JustinThorp
DanConnolly, ChrisWilson




<anne2> So I think Timed Text is a no-go

<anne> Six namespaces, duplicating tons of functionality in HTML and CSS, etc.

<Philip> Ooh, Opera supports -apple-dashboard-region in CSS

<Lachy_> yeah, but I think it's a bit strange it was added with the -apple- prefix instead of -o-

<Lachy_> AFIAK, apple widgets aren't compatible with opera widgets anyway

<Philip> Does WebKit still support -apple-dashboard-region? The source code only mentions -webkit-dashboard-region, but maybe they do a s/-apple-/-webkit-/ on the input or something

<Philip> Hmm, Opera doesn't even support some of the dashboard-region syntax from the Apple documentation

<Dashiva> The support is very, very minimal

<Philip> O9.2 reserialises style="-apple-dashboard-region: dashboard-region(control circle 15px 15px 75px 15px);" into STYLE='apple-dashboard-region: circle'

<Philip> but O9.5 handles that correctly

<Philip> ... because it doesn't actually reserialise the style attribute at all

<Philip> ... so actually O9.5 reserialises into style="-apple-dashboard-region: circle 15px 15px 75px 15px"

<Philip> so O9.2 does look about as minimal as possible, but O9.5 is somewhat better :-)

<Dashiva> Well, let me know if you can make it do something useful

<Philip> I can't see it doing anything in normal web pages, and I don't care about widgets so I have no idea if it does anything there :-p

Kuruma - you around?

<Lachy_> hey, will there be an audio stream today?

Lachy_ - nope

<DanC_lap> hmm... task forces in other languages... great idea for HTML WG

<Lachy_> ok, I guess I'll just have to follow on IRC then

<DanC_lap> hmm... MikeSmith , I don't mind if somebody audiocasts the HTML WG meeting

DanC_lap - so let's get somebody to do that

<DanC_lap> I'd have to check with Chris W.

<DanC_lap> any volunteers?

<DanC_lap> yes, do try to find somebody, MikeSmith

What mechanism were we using to stream the talk yesterday?

<DanC_lap> something kinda elaborate

<DanC_lap> Ralph knows about it

<DanC_lap> and Ted

I will check with Ralph and/or Ted then

<DanC_lap> maybe not that elaborate; I think it's on/near media.w3.org


<oedipus> quick temporary fix? http://www.nch.com.au/streaming/index.html

Probably we don't need to have anything set up for the HTMLWG session tomorrow, right?

<hsivonen> just checking: is the f2f starting at 13:30?

hsivonen - aye

<Lachy_> can someone please ping me if/when an audio stream is set up and when the meeting starts?

anybody hip to ices2?

that's what they were using yesterday

<oedipus> re NCH BroadWave you can use it for free provided "This software has two modes. A free version which has full features but requires you to have a link to our site on every page with a link to the stream."

we need a machine with ices2 installed

and we need a decent microphone

microphones are in short supply

<hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks

<oedipus> BroadWave runs on linux, mac, and windows and is compatible with IE, FF, Safari

oedipus - OK

I guess the main thing we really need is a mic

How many mics do we rip on the daily? me say many money me say many many man


<DanC_lap> aye, 13:30 Boston time. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07

<Lachy_> oedipus, in your response to the survey about publihsing the HTML5 draft, I don't understand your comment about there being competing specs. They aren't competing. The WHATWG spec and the W3C spec are identical (except for the metadata at the top)

<DanC_lap> ROOM CHANGE...

<oedipus> lachy - if that is so, then why not commit to a single draft and single track for HTML5? all feedback is welcome, but the only working draft should be the one housed in W3C space; WHAT WG can continue to develop its own version of HTML5, but the normative draft should be the one based upon the original WHAT WG submission to the W3C

<Lachy_> oedipus, the point is we don't want two separate drafts. I don't see the problem in mirroring the same draft in 2 places

<gsnedders> oedipus: not everyone can contribute to the W3C draft sadly

<Lachy_> indeed. the W3C's rules about member organisations and prevent some people from joining the HTMLWG if they are employees of W3C members

<Lachy_> ... and their employers don't nominate them

oedipus - what you describe is what the current draft available on the W3C site already is, it seems to me at least

it is a single draft

just mirrored, as Lachy_ points out

<karl> gsnedders: can you explain why not everyone can contribute?

<gsnedders> karl: Lachy_ just did so

<Lachy_> oedipus, it seems to me that what you're asking us to do, by letting the WHATWG develop it's own version, is exactly what you're saying we shouldn't do

<karl> Lachy: W3C doesn't prevent them to join the group.

<gsnedders> karl: how can they, then?

<oedipus> why then mark the WHAT WG draft as a "Call For Comments � 27 October 2007". and shouldn't the rest of the introductory text at least mention that this is a mirror of the draft in W3C space, and encourage feedback to both fora?

<karl> by going through their employers.

<Lachy_> also, some people choose not to join the HTMLWG due to the volume of traffic and nonsense that goes on there sometimes, whereas they can easily subscribe and contribue to WHATWG since it's much easier to follow

<gsnedders> karl: but if the W3C didn't have that requirement, we wouldn't be in this situation at the first time

<gsnedders> *in the first place

<karl> gsnedders: patent policy is a feature not a bug

<oedipus> lachy: i'm not going to deny anyone's right to develop or comment upon a specification, but there needs to be a central repository for feedback and issue tracking

<gsnedders> karl: there are people who can't join the WG because their employer won't let them join the WG. it's not a theoretical issue.

<Lachy_> oedipus, because it was a snapshot of the spec as it was on that date, and because publishing a spec there doesn't have to go through the same community life that it goes through in the HTMLWG

<karl> gsnedders: I would love to know who

<oedipus> lachy, then why submit the spec to the W3C in the first place?

<Lachy_> because we needed the patent policy for other groups of people and organisations to participate

oedipus - a central place for issue tracking is doable

<oedipus> right, the W3C issue tracker DanC set up

a central place for feedback doesn't seem doable to me

any editor can possibly get feedback from a lot of different places

<Lachy_> oedipus, feedback comes from many places around the web, beyond even the HTMLWG and WHATWG lists.

<gsnedders> karl: I know that Sam Ruby couldn't join for quite a while because of it, and I've heard of others

scribe: feedback from multiple mailing lists, etc.

<oedipus> MikeSmith: but if the feedback funneled to the WHAT WG isn't funneled to the HTML WG, we have separate conversations occuring over ostensively the same document

<karl> gsnedders: yes but he finally joined

<karl> nominated by his ac rep

oedipus - we have that anyway, with any spec

<gsnedders> karl: I've heard of others, though I can't remember off the top of my head

even within the W3C, discussions may take place on multiple mailing lists

<karl> gsnedders: I heard about black helicopters too flying low above cities

<oedipus> yes, mikeS, but we don't have 2 specs that are self-identified as different drafts -- if what wg wants to host a snapshot, it should be of the W3C draft, and the W3C draft should be pointed to from the WHAT WG draft

It seems to me it is the responsibility of HTMLWG members to join those other lists and follow conversations taking place there too

<Lachy_> I said politics and meant it, I didn't mean community life.

<karl> MikeSmith: ++

scribe: if they want to be able to keep up with everything

<Lachy_> I think it's so ridiculous that we have to hold a vote just to get a FPWD out the door

<karl> Lachy: you will learn it will take times, it took me time too. But I will not try to convince you, it would be useless. :) It's part of life cycle

<gsnedders> oedipus: and should the W3C HTML WG draft point to the WHATWG draft, or does this only apply one way?

<oedipus> MikeS: i'm not against outside feedback, i am concerned about 2 competing drafts, one branded with the W3C style and logo and one branded with the WHAT WG style and logo

<Lachy_> oedipus, the logo at the top doesn't make any difference. Both specs are identical in every important aspect

<karl> oedipus: take it like translations of W3C specs. it is possible to translate W3C specs in other languages.

<karl> the HTML 5 spec is under w3c document license.

<oedipus> gsnedders: it applys only one way -- the WHAT WG draft was submitted to the HTML WG and a number of companies asked that it be considered the basis for the HTML WG's work -- if that is the case, then why have 2 different drafts?

<karl> and that all matters

<karl> the rest is not very interesting

oedipus - we don't have 2 specs, we have one spec ... and I don't think the copies at the the WHATWG and W3C sites are "self identified as different drafts"

<Lachy_> oedipus, why does it matter that the spec is mirrored?

<oedipus> karl: it is possible to translate, but is there a need to translate from english to english?

<oedipus> it doesn't matter that the spec is mirrored, as long as it is the same spec, full stop.

<karl> then it is

oedipus - and I don't understand how you see them as competing drafts

<Lachy_> it is the same spec

<Lachy_> different branding doesn't matter at all

there is nothing the W3C team can or would want to do to prevent any editors or anybody else from mirroring a copy of a draft if the editors chooses to do so

<karl> oedipus: whatwg feedback is a good source of input for HTML 5 work.

oedipus - It is the same spec.

<gsnedders> oedipus: do you want to disregard several years worth of comments?

<oedipus> i'm not denying that whatwg feedback is a good source of input, but it is but one source, and the draft should be developed in one place -- if it is truly a mirror of the draft in W3C space, it should explicitly state that, and should actually mirror, rather than reflect

<oedipus> gsnedders: no, i'm not disregarding "several years of feedback" i'm concerned that it will take many many more years of feedback under current conditions to arrive at a truly stable state

oedipus - The source is developed in one place, and published in two places.

Philip - no, it would not be difficult

<oedipus> i'm still wondering what lachy meant by "both specs are identical in every important aspect"

<Philip> (Hmm, I was going to try fixing the multipage generator to be less bad, but I think I forgot about that months ago...)

<oedipus> if they are mirrors of each other, they should be identical in EVERY aspect

<Lachy_> oedipus, the header of the spec is not really that important. The important aspects include everything from the TOC down.

<oedipus> if that's the case, then why insist on having 2 versions of ostensively the same spec? it simply doesn't make any sense...

<DanC_lap> the header of the spec is quite important; it's about endorsement, branding, etc. the HTML 5 spec currently has two publishers. could be worse.

oedipus - who would you suggest should enforce this identical-in-every-aspect constraint?

<Philip> Lachy_: They have different abstracts

<Philip> (and different "status of this document"s)

scribe: and how would you imagine they'd be able to do it?

<oedipus> 2 publishers, 2 fora, 2 streams

<DanC_lap> it makes sense to me that there's still momentum in the WHATWG, oedipus

Like I said, anybody is free to mirror anything from the W3C site if they choose to.

<DanC_lap> no, they're not, MikeSmith

DanC_lap - why not?

<DanC_lap> we have a mirroring policy

<DanC_lap> MikeSmith, see http://www.w3.org/1999/10/21-mirroring-policy

<Lachy_> the W3C editor's draft is lacking a copyright statement

<DanC_lap> it's not a mirror; it's separately published

<oedipus> DanC: you hit on my concern -- it is separately published -- how and who ensures that they are in sync?

<DanC_lap> hixie does

<oedipus> by the way, DanC, regrets for not physically attending the f2f - medical problems made it feasible only to participate remotely

<Lachy_> oedipus, they are both generated from the same source by the same editor

DanC_lap - so I will qualify my statement by saying that anybody is free to mirror anything as long as they comply with the mirroring policy

<DanC_lap> yes, sorry to hear that, oedipus ; your regrets were relayed to me by mutual friends

<DanC_lap> yes, and the mirroring policy is basically: if you want to mirror anything, you need to mirror everything; we'll help you.

<oedipus> i'm not anti-whatwg, i just want to ensure that there is one draft that is the basis for mirroring


<Lachy_> it's also important that the WHATWG publish it because it has a much more liberal copyright than the W3C does

DanC_lap - dinnet know that

<Philip> Would the W3C licences permit publishing of modified versions of the spec, like for http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/spec.html ?

<Lachy_> don't think so

<gsnedders> there are people like myself and anne who have our own specs with parts of text based upon HTML 5 text

<Lachy_> Philip, http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-documents-20021231

<oedipus> how does the WHAT WG and W3C copyright differences affect the spec? i raised this as a concern before (also in regards differing copyright statements in WF2)

<DanC_lap> I'm not an expert in what our licenses might allow. We do have a copyright faq http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/IPR-FAQ-20000620

<oedipus> DanC: thanks for the pointers

<DanC_lap> welcome

<oedipus> i just think we need to step back, and align all of the ducks in an orderly row...

<DanC_lap> the ducks seem to be having a pretty good time wandering around

<DanC_lap> if we put out food, they'll come by

<Lachy_> the W3C's document licence does indeed allow copies of the spec to be hosted anywhere, but doesn't allow modifications

<Lachy_> they just require the inclusion of the copyright notice

<oedipus> the momentum of the 2 groups should spur one another, not be mutually exclusive (albeit by individuals' individual choices)

<Lachy_> oedipus, the barrier between the two groups is mostly artificial as far as work on the spec is concerned.

<oedipus> that's why i didn't object to the issuing of the draft, but expressed concerns i would like to allay before giving a thumbs up --

<oedipus> lachy: so whatever we can do to break down those artificial barriers, the better the growth and maturity of the HTML5 draft

<DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status

<DanC_lap> oedipus, hurl me an url for "Marghanita da Cruz's comments"? (cf http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results )

<oedipus> DanC: re the ducks, we should be attempting to get them eating out of the same trough -- or at least to swim in one anothers ponds more often

<DanC_lap> oh, only to some extent

<DanC_lap> yes, ponds more often

<oedipus> DanC: the comments by marghanita da cruz are in her reply to the same question

<DanC_lap> too bad you couldn't make it to the pond here in Boston. :-/

<DanC_lap> ah...

<oedipus> thanks, DanC -- i think my water is getting a bit "stale" here and am chomping at the bit (to mix animal metaphors) to actually get to meet and sit down and discuss thing with others

<DanC_lap> ACTION: DanC to consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-1 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].

<dglazkov> wow, this is cool

<dglazkov> DanC_lap, have a sec?

<oedipus> perhaps what is needed is someone (or someones) to commit issues raised and debated in the WHAT WG fora to the HTML WG's Issue Tracker?

<Lachy_> oedipus, sure, that can be done for future discussions

<oedipus> lachy: what about the backlog of issues raised by whatwg participants which hixie has often cited?

<Lachy_> but the existing feedback needs to continue to be processed as it currently is, since it would take too much effort to process and log all 3000+ emails hixie has in his archive

<oedipus> it's like every other human endeavor -- the more we work together, the less antagonism (real or perceived) between the 2 working groups, but there has to be 1 draft off of which we are all working, and i believe that to be the draft submitted to the W3C

<oedipus> DanC: did i ever officially (via the list) report back that i completed my first action item from the last HTML WG telecon? at 1:10 PM EDT 11/1/2007 i sent the following: 1) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0001.html and 2) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0007.html (the same post in both places)

<oedipus> i'm also working on the CSS action item, as well

<mjs> hey everyone

<aaronlev> DanC_lap: when do you want mike to do the aria demo?

<aaronlev> when does the meeting start, etc.

<oedipus> 13:30

<aaronlev> k

<aaronlev> oedipus: i had to throw out what diego built

<DanC_lap> I haven't picked a time for the aria demo; can we keep it loose? or is somebody coordinating across rooms?

<oedipus> yeah, i noticed that -- i haven't heard back from him yet

<aaronlev> DanC_lap: that's fine as long as we have a ballpark

<aaronlev> we'll come in after lunch

<aaronlev> oedipus: i went back to a prev version of the mozilla.org example and fixed it

<oedipus> aaronlev: good news! hans hillen should also be involved in testing and sample coding

<DanC_lap> aaronlev, does http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 give you enough of a ballpark?

<aaronlev> oedipus: yes he should

<aaronlev> DanC_lap: yes, thanks

<aaronlev> oedipus: the new crash in ff3 was actually 2 separate problems, i have fixes pending

<oedipus> aaronlev: i'll ping hans offline and let him know that he posted his query to the right place

<aaronlev> oedipus: but for now it's wise to avoid sub-sub aria menus with that example in ff3

<aaronlev> oedipus: i want people to put their testing results in the page everyone looks at, can you do that?

<oedipus> aaronlev: i was considering a menu only example to precede the spreadsheet, which introduces 2 concepts -- might be better to demonstrate a menu, before demonstrating a menu in conjunction with another widget

<aaronlev> oedipus: scott haeger just updated it to add Orca results, and I've asked Charles Chen to do it with Fire Vox

<aaronlev> oedipus: mike is going to do a tree view

<oedipus> aaronlev: yes, i will use the test result matrix at mozilla

<aaronlev> i think that's a more valid example anyway

<oedipus> aaronlev: i agree -- plus, the tree views work rather well

<aaronlev> because we can show it using shipping dojo widgets

<oedipus> aaronlev: precisely

<aaronlev> working in actual released software

<aaronlev> oedipus: this is the page that has the compatibility matrix, i really want to keep it up-to-date: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications

<oedipus> aaronlev: i think things will shake out well, now that there's a central repository for test results and a designated list (wai-xtech) for discussion/coordination

<oedipus> aaronlev: thanks for the pointer

<oedipus> aaronlev: chaals mcn was testing the materials with opera on a mac -- don't know if he has any useful data yet or not

<oedipus> DanC: does oedipus: and oedipus, have a different meaning in RRSAgent? does a colon indicate attribution or an address to another user, or should that be handled with a comma?

<DanC_lap> the RRSAgent/scribe.perl tools treat : as attribution (a la Juliet: Romeo, Romeo ...). In W3C meetings, we tend to use traditional (chicago manual of style) comma for direct address

<oedipus> thanks for the clarification -- i've just followed others' (apparently bad) practices

<DanC_lap> whether the evolution in norms is good or bad is hard to say... it's a bit of a pain given current scribe.perl design

<DanC_lap> I think it's not cost-effective to train people in this channel to reconfigure their IRC clients and such.

<oedipus> agreed

<DanC_lap> I can just use a text editor to supplement scribe.perl

<karl> A new version of scribe.perl is at work with a complete refactoring and test cases. If you need features, it might be good to propose things. Send an email to david booth cc: www-archive

<DanC_lap> does anybody know Philip TAYLOR well enough to understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results better than I do?

<DanC_lap> MikeSmith, do you know him?

<DanC_lap> ah... thanks for the reminder, karl

<DanC_lap> karl, do you have bandwidth to chat with Philip TAYLOR?

<oedipus> DanC: do you mean quote No, we have not yet agreed the Design Principles. Without those, the specification has no formal basis for existence, and premature publication could jeopardise the reputation of the Working Group. unquote?

DanC_lap - don't know him

<DanC_lap> yes, that one.

<mjs> is it easy to obtain lunch and coffee somewhere at the hotel?

<DanC_lap> do you have bandwidth to phone him or something, MikeSmith ?

<mjs> I'm thinking of heading over soon

<DanC_lap> it's straightforward though expensive, I think, mjs

DanC_lap - I'd be glad to call him if you think that would help

<mjs> other option is I could walk the other way from where I'm staying to Central Square

<DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status

mjs - there is rumored to be a restaurant about 10 minutes walk

<DanC_lap> MikeSmith, why doesn't trackbot-ng know the other folks in the issue tracking group?

<DanC_lap> I want to give you an action

<oedipus> DanC, i'm not quite sure, and don't know PhilipT personally

<karl> DanC_lap: I can try to discuss with him. :) not sure that he will agree, but I can try. It might be just misunderstandings

DanC_lap - dunno. I think I may need to ask systeam to add me

<mjs> MikeSmith: I know the area pretty well, just not the hotel

<DanC_lap> right, karl, I'm not asking you to convince him of anything; just listen

mjs - they got candy bars and potato chips in the convenience store in the lobby

<DanC_lap> MikeSmith, you're already added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ ; somehow trackbot-ng doesn't seem to be consulting that list

and cookies

DanC_lap - will ask on sysreq now

<karl> because there is food at the Galleria Cambridge

DanC_lap - hang one


try ACTION: Michael(tm) maybe

<DanC_lap> no... look:

<DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status


I see now

trackbot-ng, reload

<trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config

<trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/

trackbot-ng, statsu

trackbot-ng, status

DanC_lap - there you go

<DanC_lap> thanks... now... did it lose the action I gave above? I guess it's easy enough to do again...

<oedipus> DanC: i think PhilipT's position hasn't changed since the first polls -- he'd rather have a statement of design principles released, garner feedback, and hammered into concensus and rereleased before releasing a working draft

<DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].

<DanC_lap> oops; dup. oh well

<DanC_lap> I'm gonna assign the formal objection action to MikeSmith cuz he's in the tracker, but you're more than welcome to help, karl

karl - おねがいします

<DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael (tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Michael

DanC_lap - gotta do Michael(tm)

<DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael(tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-3 - Contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-15].

that breakfast of Twix bar and tea don't quite keep me going

can of Guiness Extra Stout at 10:30 helped a bit though

<oedipus> MikeSmith: so, until 13:30 local time, the channel is open for outside the face2face discussions?

oedipus - which channel

<DanC_lap> hmm... I think I'm gonna need IRC watchers in the meeting. maybe that'll take care of itself

<oedipus> Mike(tm) Smith, well, if this channel is reserved for the f2f we can move to another? or is there already an html-f2f channel?

<DanC_lap> this is the channel for the ftf

<oedipus> ok

<DanC_lap> people can make side channels for break-outs or whatever, provided they invite RRSAgent along and make logs world-access

<oedipus> will keep the side conversations to a minumum and use the q commands to enter the queue after 13:30

oedipus - for q, I guess we'll need to /invite Zakim

<oedipus> DOH!

we could go ahead and do now I guess

<DanC_lap> sure

<oedipus> it makes sense to me, but i'm just a schlub

<DanC_lap> I wonder if zakim can be the keeper of the unconference session titles and places!

<DanC_lap> this will work great; zakim can time speakers for the 1/2/3 minute unconference pitches

<DanC_lap> Thanks for Zakim, ralph!

<anne> is there place so sit and WiFi on the sixteenth floor already?

anne - dunno. Haven't been up there yet today

<anne> k, thanks

Lachy - no streaming audio, unfortunately

but we may be able to set up a telephone bridge

if you want to call in

<Hixie> in case anyone is on the 16th floor wondering where everyone else is, the meeting is now on the 14th floor

<Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07

<Chris> not yet, just prepping

<anne> k

<Lachy> MikeSmith, unfortunately, I can't call in, since I don't have a phone at home.

<Lachy> MikeSmith, it would be good if you could set up skype

Lachy - no can do

<smedero> Ugh, traffic - just got to the Hyatt.

<smedero> Is the meeting on the 14th floor still?

<smedero> thanks

oedipus - DanC says he would rather not right now, but we can play around later at the break

I missed a few people when I did the present list

So if you are on IRC and don't see your name on the following list:

<karl> [Danc is explaining the process document with a drawing of Ian Hickson]

scribe: then please do a "Present+ YourName" to add yourself to the present list


<hober> What if you're in IRC but not at the TP?

<smedero> heh.

<Hixie> anne: snakes go from the head to the tail

<anne> http://ln.hixie.ch/media/comics/hixie/w3c-snakes-and-ladders.png

<anne> Hixie, oh, so I got them backwards

hober - then please do, e.g., YourName_IRC_only or something like that

<ChrisWilson> is this an internationalization difference? (In the US I think the game is marketed as chutes & ladders)

<anne> (the above ln.hixie.ch image is being discussed)

<karl> anne, there are steps you can jump over. Basically there are entrance criterias not exit criterias

<hsivonen> so the snakes went from each stage backwards

<mauro> Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting

introduction on aria

<MichaelC> ARIA Overview: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria

<hsivonen> Ben arrived

Aron Leventhal speaking about ARIA ... ARIA intro

<ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-roadmap/ is a useful start too.

32 or more states in a typical accessibility API

<hsivonen> MSAA

aaronlev: MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility) ...

Mike Squillace arrives

<ChrisWilson> Good overview/start to MSAA is http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms697707.aspx

aaronlev: HTML is missing basic things that we have on the desktop ...
... ridiculous, for example, that we don't have a tree-view [mechanism] in HTML
... widget toolkit takes care of a lot of the work

<gsnedders> The number of common widgets that need to be implemented time and time again with JS is maddening

aaronlev: because of DOM ability for mutation events, can fire an event for [accessibility needs]

<hsivonen> info on ARIA: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ

aaronlev: the hard work is on the side of the JS author

<scribe> Scribenick: MikeSmith

<gsnedders> At times you'll never get as good accessibility with JS as you would with native widgets

[getting sound from Mike Squillace's machine plugged in]

<ChrisWilson> gsnedders - that's the semantic problem ARIA tries to address

Marcos is videotaping Mike's demo

<gsnedders> ChrisWilson: even with the complete ARIA, I still have my doubts about whether we can recreate everything

<gsnedders> [that could be done natively]

<ChrisWilson> by adding all the relevant controls and semantics to HTML, you mean?

Mike slows down his JAWS to 20% and mjs jokes it reminds him of TimBL slowed-down take from yesterday

[Mike is pressing controls in a webapp and getting feedback from jaws]

<gsnedders> ChrisWilson: the diversity of AT platforms and how they are implemented makes me wonder whether one thing could really support everything

Demo is "Happy Time Pizza On-line Ordering System"

<anne> (ARIA is very low-level)

<ChrisWilson> that's true, but the idea of ARIA (and similar ATs) is to allow mapping application components to a smaller, more high-level semantic set of controls.

<oedipus> no

<olivier> Mikesmith: I can see the screen, but the URI is a tad long

<ChrisWilson> sorry, not perfect decsription.

aaronlev - can you paste in the URL for the demo please

<oedipus> which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me

<karl> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/tabpanel/view_xhtml.php

<oedipus> thanks

<ChrisWilson> the idea is to capture the semantic roles of components; there may be multiple different components that act as a "button"

<MichaelC> Most of this demo comes from http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/

<aaronlev> http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/test_Tree.html

[mike is now doing Dijit Tree Test demo]

<dglazkov> t.v. raman once mentioned using mobile gmail as the accessible (and quality) equivalent to the full-blown gmail

<anne> ChrisWilson, the idea is that the author implements the accessibility on top of a widget he already created

<dglazkov> perhaps that's the solution

mike: If you use Dojo toolkit now, a lot of [this] is already built into the library.

<dglazkov> instead of taking a complex Web app and attaching AT hooks to it

aaronlev: Mike is using the standard keys for a tree view

<dglazkov> build your app with simple blocks, available in HTML

<dglazkov> and use JS to enhance the UX

<gsnedders> if I create a slider in JS, is there any way it could behave identically to a native one on OS X using ARIA?

mike: just as if I were in Windows Explorer ... just like on a desktop

<ChrisWilson> anne - umm, sort of. the idea is that the author describes the semantic role of their components, so that accessibility tools can make use of it

<oedipus> the dijit tree test works on my FF3 install (last release) with JAWS 8.0.2173

<dglazkov> while providing the opportunity to turn off the enhancement

olivier: Is there a specific intonation for indicating [this metadata]

<anne> ChrisWilson, is it used for anything else?

<gsnedders> (even if we ignore the visible part of the UI for now)

<ChrisWilson> anne, the semantic role?

<anne> dglazkov, that's the idea of CSS + XBL basically, if I understand you correctly (but that's more a long term solution :-(

tex: wouldn't you want to say, give me the list of all elements at this level? ...

<dglazkov> yes.. I guess I just don't like the ARIA proposal, because it's ultimately a dead-end.

tex: why not just map this to a completely different model?

<oedipus> dglazkov: why do you say it is a dead-end?

<dglazkov> well, oedipus, I may be to harsh in this characterization

aaronlev: there probably is a more efficient model from presenting the data for this context ... but it would be something completely foreign to the average desktop user
... JS widgets will always be a reality ...

<dglazkov> but I think that we shouldn't be taking complex UIs and making them accessible

<Lachy> because it's way too complex for average authors to even think about using and you're relying on the distribution and use of pre-written toolkits for this to be even remotely successful

<mjs> it's a dead end only if all control types covered by AX apis end up available in HTML, and we get enough power to fully customize look and feel of all widgets

aaronlev: sometimes the best UI is just one that people [already] know

<oedipus> ARIA is the first step and suffices for generalized markup languages, but the intermediary where specialized knowledge domain markup is used -- consult: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers

<anne> mjs, yeah, CSS is the problem...

<gsnedders> Lachy: most authors just use text/links, though, in fairness

<mjs> anne: I dunno if it's just CSS - HTML doesn't have built-in support for many OS-standard widget types, even in the current HTML5 draft

<jgraham_> Lachy: you rely on prewritten toolkits in desktop apps too; to be fair

<oedipus> mjg, by AX do you mean accessibility (a11y)?

<mjs> oedipus, yes, AX is the abbreviation used by the Mac OS X accessibility APIs

<oedipus> thanks, i didn't know

kevin: Think of something like CoverFlow

Hixie: people are still making up their own widgets

<oedipus> mjs: the last time i used a mac, i could still see... it's hard to get agencies for the blind to train on anything other than windows

<mjs> CoverFlow is just a list view with a bonus magical display

<mjs> oedipus, that's too bad - VoiceOver is supposedly pretty good

[one more demo from mike now]

<aaronlev> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/spreadsheet

<Lachy> I used VoiceOver briefly to test it out, and it was remarkebly simple even for me

[mike is showing a demo of navigating a table]

mike: I hate navigating spreadsheets
... the last thing I want to do is go navigating cell-by-cell through a spreadsheet

[mike moving through column headers]

[mike showing how to edit contents of cells]

[mike hitting Ctrl+Alt to pull up menus]

hsivonen - are the table semantics from HTML only or with ARIA markup?

aaronlev - some ARIA to say that the row headers are read-only

[demo finished ... applause ... DanC stands and stretches]

[next up is demo from Ben]

<karl> oedipus, we are collecting questions

[waiting from Ben to get set up]

<MichaelC> Regarding customization of presentation: ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions

[we got musical accompaniment from DanC on the guitar]

[Ben Millard introducing topic of data tables]

<anne> He explains: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/

<kazuhito> http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/

ben: found out there are many tables on the Web that weren't in HTML ... some ASCII tables, some Excel, etc.
... found some instances of tables lacking any header rows at all

<ChrisWilson> oedipus, maybe we should make that requirement for all discussion.

[Ben is walking us through the "How Authors Indicate Headers" part of page at URL above]

<oedipus> ChrisW: sounds good to me -- should i go down into the basement to mix up the medicine?

[DanC preparing to do some music]

<Hixie> IH: I'm encouraged by these numbers

<Hixie> (they indicate higher quality tables are more common than i expected)

[getting ready for demo from Maciej]

<karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0040

[Maciej beginning his demo]

<ChrisWilson> [mjs demoing arbitrary affine transforms thru CSS]

<karl> so anne can talk

scribe: showing cross-fading ... menu boxes growing as he mouses overs them ... notes that this can be doing using Javascript but this uses CSS
... has really good fallback behavior
... if you view same content in a browser that doesn't support the animation properties
... no special hardware being used

Lachy: because it's cool, like us

<ChrisWilson> karl, I was hearing the Ginsu knife TV ad...

<dglazkov> screenshots!

<karl> might be a cultural thing

[maciej is showing the markup source and CSS]

scribe: -webkit-transition-duration
... -webkit-transform

<karl> http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/

<anne> dglazkov, someone makes a movie, so maybe later

maciej: this demo maybe shows a need for extensions to form controls
... <button type=toggle> or <button type=radio>

<smedero> I'm on it

<anne> I think that in that case it doesn't match to radio really well

<anne> Which typically has a single one selected

"but wait, there's more" was invented by RonCo

<anne> (no toggling behavior)


ChrisWilson: you gotta put "q+ to ..."

<ChrisWilson> MikeSmith, thanks, forgot to use "to" rather than for"

Unconference pitches

<Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to pitch conformance checking test case discussion

<Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to give versioning pitch

<Zakim> Ben, you wanted to pitch for more info on tables

<Zakim> jgraham_, you wanted to give test case organisation

<anne> Henri wants to talk about systematic validator testing

<anne> Chris wants to talk about versioning, backwards compat, etc.

jgraham_ points out that we have accumulated a small pile of disorganized test cases ...

<anne> Ben wants to talk about data tables (header association, etc.)

scribe: what I want is to have a discussion about what test cases we need, how to best organizes the ones we already got

<anne> James wants to talk about organizing existing testcases, licensing tests, etc.

<Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to pitch for status thingy and to pitch for test thingy

Hixie: spec has various sections with varying levels of stability ...

<anne> Ian wants to talk about stability annotation within the specification (status thingy)

Hixie: would like to have a way to annotate stability of different parts of spec

<anne> Ian wants to teach people to write tests

Hixie: tutorial session on how to write test cases
... You will write test cases and I will tell you what you are doing wrong [laughs]

mjs: session or sweatshop?

I like the word niutes

<Zakim> danc, you wanted to talk about "testing is hard"

DanC: Storytelling and test cases ...
... karl has some great slides on this

<Zakim> mjs, you wanted to pitch for offline support and to pitch for media elements

mjs: offline support ... we have done some implementation work, I know Mozilla has also

<Zakim> karl, you wanted to pitch for HTML 5 for author

karl: with HTML5 we have a big clash with [previous expections] of the community toward W3C specs ...
... [need to consider how to address the expectations of the authoring community]

<Hixie> there are 12 items

<Hixie> at the moment

song for Håkon: 6ish people raise hands

song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands


. song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands

<tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html

<tlr> whooopos

<tlr> s/http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html//

<smedero> mjs: do you have a public URL for your CSS animation demo? (I have the URL for the WebKit blog entry on it)

<mjs> smedero: I will post it publicly soon

<mjs> smedero: I only finished this version right before presenting

<smedero> alright, no rush... just compiling info for the issue. :)

<mjs> smedero: last version used content that I couldn't redistribute

[we are effectively breaking until 4pm ... ]

<molly> wondering if it's worth coming over for the remainder of the day or having a little me time and catching up tomorrow. Advice?

<Lachy> MikeSmith, now that the break is on, is there someone who can organise a skypecast? Just need someone with skype and a decent mic to pick up the speakers

<oedipus> if there is my skypename is oedipusnj -- marcos captured the first 2 demos (at least) on his webcam

<Lachy> oedipus, are you participating via IRC only?

<oedipus> yes

<oedipus> the first demo is (temporarily at): - note it takes quite some time to load, but eventually will

<Lachy> oedipus, has that server got a slow upload speed? It's not going very fast at all

<oedipus> lachy, it took forever and a day, and then suddenly started playing -- for some reason, won't play before the whole thing is buffered, so when it started, i saved it locally and then listened to it

<Lachy> yeah, I'm trying to save it locally

<Lachy> what codec is it using?

<oedipus> it is an AVI file

<Lachy> Could it be converted to ogg theora or something with a bit better compression?

<Lachy> AVI is just a container format. It could contain almost any codec

<oedipus> i have a codec conversion utility -- i'll "see" what i can do

<Lachy> run it through ffmpeg2theora

<Lachy> sending the file by skype would be much slower, skype isn't good for transferring large files

<molly> still loading over here

<Lachy> 40 to 50 minutes remaining at this speed :-(

<Lachy> well, you could try it if you have a decent upload speed. Otherwise, I can get marcos to skype it to me when he gets back to his computer

<Lachy> my skype name is lachlanhunt

<oedipus> thanks, lachy -- let me try to convert it first

<Lachy> you can get ffmpeg2theora here. It's a command line utility for windows. http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/download.html

<anne> lol

<molly> is there any other female involved in this wg discussion?

<oedipus> we don't know whether RRSAgent is male, female or indifferent...

<molly> oedipus I think we can probably agree that the agent is genderless :D

<gsnedders> anne… be silly? oh wow.

<smedero> molly, there were two females present in the conference room earlier... I don't enough of these folks to tell you whos who.

<molly> smedero thanks! I am just curious. I'll be back in the room tomorrow

<molly> i'm not bringing it up to call foul or anything, it's just a point of curiosity for me

<smedero> molly, no I understand.


<smedero> particularly in light of the A List Apart survey recently...

<jane> oedipus: har :\

<molly> smedero yes! that was an amazing survey. Frightening in some ways

<gsnedders> it had issues for people not in full-time jobs though, IIRC

<dbaron> mjs: "I'm trying to schedule based on facts, not moral imperatives."

<molly> Leslie's here, now I know there's some additional girl power in the room ;)

<Marcos> no probs... next time I'll bring a proper web cam

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael (tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael(tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/11/08 21:01:32 $

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Succeeded: s/Abstract/TOC/
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Found ScribeNick: MikeSmith
Inferring Scribes: MikeSmith
Present: KarlDubost MikkoHonkala MichaelCooper MarcinHanclik HenriSivonen JamesGraham AnneVanKesteren JoshueOConnor MarcusMilke BobHopgood Mauro TexTexin TravisLeithead MasatakaYakura KazuhitoKidachi DaveSinger MaciejStokowiak DavidBaron LeslieMansell AaronLeventhal MikeSmith ShawnMedero NoahMendelsohn ShawnHenry OlivierTheroux EdwardOConnor_IRC_only BertBos GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only LachlanHunt_IRC_only GavinSharp_IRC_only DimitriGlazkov_IRC_only KevinLawver BenMillard SeanMedero PatrickIon ChrisRowland SteveFaulkner Håkon ScottVesey NickVanDenBleeken DanielZucker TonyGrasso JustinThorp
Got date from IRC log name: 8 Nov 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: contact dan danc michael philip taylor tm

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