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<scribe> Meeting: Joint Forms Task Force
<scribe> scribenick: oedipus
i do, anne
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus
Mark: what do people want out of
task force? what would like acheived
... personally, think neeed to find bridge between solutions
(XForms and Web Forms 2.0) -- discussing in Forms WG ways of
making transition easiest possible; keen to see if can meet in
the middle -- some of the things Web Forms 2.0 extensions could
they be part of what XForms is working on? if developer moving
from HTML forms to HTML5 forms to XForms 2, would like to be a
smoothe process
AVK: interested in hearing what
kind of input XForms WG has on WF2 (Web Forms 2.0)
... expressed outcomes in charter proposal; transition path
between the two -- diffferences, mostly scripting; don't make
too complex
GJR: i would like the task force to consider dave raggett's XForms Transitional draft
AVK: out of charter scope -- discussing technical spec; we are defining an architecture not a technical spec
Mark: not start with XForms
Transitional -- conceptual ideas in conflict; dave's not around
to support it
... think would be interesting to have proper discussion on
XForms 2 extension; assess how this bridging might be achieved
from WF2.0 to XForms
AVK: not sure XForms transitional compatible
Mark: background: number of
things in XForms that are syntaxically unecessary; if don't
express instance of XML data, get data created for you; could
not require expression of model -- not a new language, but how
do we tune XForms so retains its conceptual model, but easier
to use syntaxically and could be used by relative novice
... need to work out: if have input control bound to firstname
and another to secondname -- want to concatonate in XForms
XPath concatonation -- how to bridge the 2? not by making them
look the same -- different languages in model -- javascript in
HTML and XPath in XForms; 2 ways of achieving -- how to get
from one to the other
... meta-information will help guide us to ascertain where we
are coming from; not religious about this -- javascript so
commoonly used to make widgets, don't always need to create an
XPath -- 2 ways of doing things
Nick: nothing against javascript or XPath -- if it is the best solution, should be able to use it
AVK: script mark HTTP-Header and meta elements -- don't know if supported in gecko
Mark: don't know how widely
supported; would require us to say XPath is a scripting
language
... type of issue we need to step through to achieve goal
... many good candidates for attributes; support for multiple
languages in browser
AVK: single platform easy to add a lot of features -- if 4 platforms need to support different methods, it will be a waste
Mark: certain attributes contain script can be used as way to take javascript from WF2 and XPath from XForms
AVK: should be concentrating on guidelines
Mark: trying to ensure that no particular architecture is ruled out by what we do -- if just have input control or 2 inputs and a concatonated output, nothing requires MVC architecture; don't want to rule one way or another -- implement as implementor chooses -- if someone introduces attribute, will not break
AVK: mapping simple HTML forms DOM structure to XForms
Mark: no need for conversion --
AVK: define mapping between WF2 and XForms -- WF2 makes additional parts of forms easier to use -- doesn't add much as far as a model or output --
Mark: in XForms model, if say XML
node called date, anywhere put input control associated with
date, can obtain it; some argue shouldn't put data on input
control; don't think breaks MVC model; XForms needs ability to
set view level properties -- one control read-only one not
read-only -- if set forms control, all will be read-only; need
way to distinguish which are which -- build on HTML4 and WF2
rather than be in conflict with them
... doesn't matter that don't shave MVC model -- can
conceptually act as if there is one -- there is a model, can't
see -- WF2 applies to "view level" XForms attributes apply to
model
AVK: seems like a model constraint; datatypes allow you to do that
Mark: constraints are connected to model; WF2 if have 2 controls connected to same data can have separate types, right?
AVK: not sure
Mark: is it like HTML control array?
AVK: yes, built on top of HTML
Mark: read-only -- to get in XForms have to say some data is read-only, input control bound to that becomes read-only; programmers start with UI, add more controls and data, shouldn't rule out use of MVC
AVK: guidelines - conversion from HTML to XForms model -- not about WF2 (supplemental to HTML forms) -- how do HTML forms used everywhere map to XForms
Mark: believe you can map them
AVK: not saying can't but that is the challange
Mark: HTML forms pretty easy; people get worked up over WF2 and XForms are similarities
AVK: read-only and disabled are also part of HTML forms -- not new; WF2 allows read-only on slightly more controls and disable on select -- not new feature
Mark: want to begin with new features even if only half-a-feature; harmonize work being done; if simply harmonize with HTML miss out on what is being done in other areas
GJR: from SS post to public-forms-tf -- agree on architectural consistency but must define
AVK: for some may be clear mapping between XForms and WF2 or single interface -- not sure
Mark: conceptually, see them
based on same model
... if is model underneath HTML form, could still be described
by MVC -- data entered into form, processed, serialized and
delivered; HTML onSubmit queries all controls and submits that;
could collect in a model, even if not explicit; allows further
extension of forms
<mjs> my apologies gentlemen, had a traffic disaster
<mjs> can someone remind me of the call-in number?
hope you are ok
Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200, passcode 36767# ("FORMS#")
<mjs> not an accident, just bad traffic on the way to work
MJS: personal view: as stands, architectural consistency is vague, but is work of TF in executing charter to find what it means; different possible interpretations need to be investigated and which make sense for what
AVK: can do by email: charter review period 2 weeks from now -- 3 weeks publish as official after taking to groups
RESOLUTION: internal charter review period will end 3 weeks from today, after which will be submitted to respective WGs
AVK: produce some guidelines -- 23 november 2007 deadline -- ok?
MJS: occasional meetings good -- only as needed
GJR: when meet impasse or can't achieve consensus on list then can call teleconference to discuss
scribe's note: general agreement
chair+ none
attendees+ Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Mark_Birbeck, Anne_Van_Kestren, Gregory_J_Rosmaita, Maciej_Stachowiak
attendees: Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Mark_Birbeck, Anne_Van_Kestren, Gregory_J_Rosmaita, Maciej_Stachowiak
on the call i heard you, me, nick, mark, and maciej -- sebastian wasn't there
<mjs> what was mjs?
<mjs> oh, the .aaaa number?
<mjs> I think that was me
<anne> yeah
mjs: did you call from 408?
<mjs> I don't know why it listed me twice
<mjs> Apple is in the US 408 area code
perhaps that means that you're excused from our next telecon?
attendees- +1.408.996.aaa
chair+ none
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/don't need to create/don't always need to create/ Found ScribeNick: oedipus Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita Found ScribeNick: oedipus Default Present: Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne, +1.408.996.aaaa, mjs Present: Nick_van_den_Bleeken markbirbeck Gregory_Rosmaita anne +1.408.996.aaaa mjs Got date from IRC log name: 31 Oct 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]