See also: IRC log
<DanC> Scribe: DanC
<DanC_> minutes HTML WG 11 Oct
JR: regrets for the ftf
<hsivonen> anne said he is "likely not" to be here http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20071017#l-257
next meeting: 25 Oct at 4p PT/23:00UTC, Chris W to chair
JR: how about tracker, as used by TAG?
HS: keep in mind the WHATWG issue tracker that Ian H. uses
<hsivonen> that's a better view to the same tracker
DanC: what happens when hixie is done with an issue?
HS: it goes in the commit log
DanC: do the names like "graphics-captions" show up in the commit logs?
HS: not necessarily; this is a
sanitized view of his IMAP status
... the lazy... address has more persistent issue URIs
<Philip> (The lazy... one doesn't attempt to persist issues after they've been resolved (hence deleted from the IMAP view), and I think it only keeps cached copies for a day)
DanC: the W3C tracker only
recently keeps a good audit trail
... I'm now comfortable using tracker...
... we could bulk load hixies list, or some combination of review and bulk load...
... Let's review the list of people interested to help with issue tracking from the tasks survey...
<DanC_> tasks survey responses
issue tracking, summarization, and clustering
* Dan Connolly
* Chasen Le Hara
* Debi Orton
* David Dailey
* David McClure
* James Graham
* Ian Hickson
* Chris Adams
* Roman Kitainik
* Laura Carlson
* Benjamin Hedrington
* Karl Dubost
* Jens Meiert
* Shawn Medero
* Ben Millard
* Stephen Axthelm
* Eric Daspet
* Julian Reschke
jgraham, you around?
Ben Millard Professional content developer (HTML, CSS, accessibility).
Provides standards- and browser-compliant solutions to markup problems raised on internet forums.
Reads about accessibility, usability, standards and browser conformance.
<scribe> ACTION: GR contact Ben Millard about regular issue triage [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-html-wg-irc]
JR: yes, with a team of people like that, I'd be willing to chime in regularly
<DanC_> what features in particular do you like from bugzilla, oedipus ?
<oedipus> annotation, linking to other issues, -- basically the details that usually otherwise fall between the cracks
DanC: Henry, what's your first impression of tracker?
HS: email integration is important; tracker takes email input?
DanC: yes, it picks up ISSUE-NN mail
<oedipus> PF has been invoking trackbot-ng to track issues during telecons
<oedipus> since i'm a member of the forms task force, perhaps i should participate in forms-issues tracking and triage
<DanC_> good point, oedipus
<oedipus> it might give things a jump-start
<scribe> ACTION: DanC to request tracker installation for HTML WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-html-wg-irc]
<oedipus> joint forms task force going to need to use issue tracker anyway...
1.9 $ of $Date: 2007-09-14 09:44:18 http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
DanC: I've talked with mjs every few weeks about finishing his editing pass...
Sep 26 15:59:12 <mjs> DanC: at some point I'd suggest to ship it instead of waiting more
Sep 26 16:00:18 <DanC> I'm ready to (propose to) ship when you are.
DanC: we chatted a bit since then; ETA was 15 Oct at that point
<oedipus> last HDP document still datestamped 14 september 2007
<oedipus> there's been a fair bit of dialog on it since then
<oedipus> on public-html
<DanC_> where has the dialog been? I haven't seen any [HDP] mail
<oedipus> not all of it
<DanC_> "accessibility" doesn't occur in 1.9
<oedipus> there is a lonely query from DanC about HDP status (10 october 2007)
DanC: GR, what do you think about publishing 1.9?
<oedipus> no, there hasn't been any changes -- concerned that doesn't mention accessibility support for legacy
<DanC_> so we should wait for mjs to get to that bit
<scribe> ACTION: Maciej to finish editng pass based on pending comments, e.g. from survey of 2007-08-16 to 2007-08-23 [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-html-wg-irc]
<oedipus> i18n, a11y and DI specific markup should be continued to be supported
<DanC_> is there specific suggested text that you like re i18n, a11y and DI ?
<oedipus> yes, i've submitted it to mjs on-list (public-html) at least thrice -- and once in a telecon
<oedipus> "Browsers should retain support for residual/legacy markup designed for
<oedipus> a specific purpose, such as accessibility. internationalization or device
<oedipus> independence. Simply because new technologies and superior mechanisms
<oedipus> have been identified, not all of them have been implemented. Moreover,
<oedipus> disabled users are more likely to be users of "legacy technology" because
<oedipus> it is the only technology that interacts correctly with third-party
<oedipus> assistive technologies."
HS: not sure I like that for [reasons scribe missed]
<oedipus> HenriS, note that this isn't the "marketplace" speaking, it is a constituency that is at the mercy of implementors and support for some of the features in UAs
<oedipus> HS said that not all such markup is supported by market, so shouldn't be supported backwardsly, right?
<scribe> ACTION: hsivonen to propose alternative to 2007Sep/0519 as suggestion to mjs on accessibility/i18n/dev-independence [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-html-wg-irc]
<hsivonen> I said that implementations can't "retain" stuff that isn't already implemented
<oedipus> ok -- was hoping you'd clarify
<oedipus> re: HDP, there is an interesting post by Marghanita da Cruz
DanC: I'm willing to re-open the informal survey about what to publish 1st; I would need to re-sync with Chris W. before putting the question formally
<oedipus> plus one to survey for public WD of design
<Julian> +1 as well
<scribe> ACTION: DanC to announce re-opened survey on 1st WD priorities, reply to Anne [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-html-wg-irc]
DanC: any sections that are thin on review?
HS: the new datatemplates section.
<oedipus> could resolve to publish at f2f than set window for group not in attendance to yea or nay
CW: I'd rather have the ftf meeting before publishing the HTML 5 spec as a W3C WD
<oedipus> either way, it will make progress
DanC: I could either put the question before the ftf and announce the results at the ftf, or put the question at the ftf and let everybody take a week after to answer. but can't do both in one day
DanC: history of this issue from
... I only recently learned about many of the relevant people, for example, Aaron M Leventhal...
<oedipus> yeah, i met aaronL at a f2f in 2000 or 2001
<oedipus> latest draft 17 october 2007
<oedipus> RichS would be best to address -- he is coordinating cross-group conversations
DanC: I have been talking with Al Gilman about face-to-face possibilities at the TPAC in November near BOS. Simon Pieters is not available, but Aaron seems to be registered, as observer at least
<DanC_> registrants [not public]
DanC: I don't have a clear picture of the schedule for AIRA; it seems to be connected with the XHTML Role Module and XHTML Modularization
<oedipus> ARIA's basis is an extension of XHTML Role Module
<oedipus> RichS and i are both participants in XHTML2 WG
<hober> I don't see what _ gets us that - doesn't
<oedipus> underscore doesn't break IE's CSS rendering, dash doesn't preclude use of ARIA in SVG
<zcorpan> oedipus, dash doesn't break IE's CSS rendering, either.
<oedipus> no, that's colon
(I'm not sure I have energy to scribe this sort of technical detail...)
(I think what HS is saying is in public-html email)
<oedipus> colon presents problem for IE support of styling (CSS selectors), dash is problematic for SVG
oedipus, could you be a little more explicit about who's saying what?
oedipus, if you make a comment in IRC without putting Name: at the start, it gets attributed to you
<oedipus> attempt to find middle ground that is not controversial is point of all the current effort - underscore seems to be the most neutral character
<oedipus> problem is each stakeholder is defending their own turf
DanC: oops; sorry for the awkward timing, but I'm expected elsewhere.
discussion continued in IRC...
<Chris> Zakin, [Microsoft] was me
I'll edit minutes and send in the next day or so
<scribe> ScribeNick: nobody
<jgraham> DanC: I entirely forgot about the telecon, otherwise I would have been :)
<DanC> hi jgraham ; are you interested to help maintain an HTML WG issues list? (have you read the telcon notes?)
<jgraham> DanC: Sure I guess I still have some free time :) (it's taken me a while to read the backlog, hence the slow response)
<DanC> speaking of backlog and slow response, I'm now in a phone meeting. glad to hear you're interested. I'll be in touch!