IRC log of rdfa on 2007-10-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:16 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

14:44:16 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc

14:44:21 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #rdfa

14:44:30 [mhausenblas]

zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)

14:44:30 [Zakim]

ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes

14:44:40 [mhausenblas]

Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-10-04, 15:00 UTC

14:44:55 [mhausenblas]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0023.html

14:45:02 [mhausenblas]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-09-27

14:45:09 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:45:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:45:22 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:48:27 [mhausenblas]

Chair: Ben

14:48:31 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:48:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:51:34 [mhausenblas]

zakim, who's here?

14:51:34 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has not yet started, mhausenblas

14:51:35 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, mhausenblas, myakura

14:53:04 [RalphS]

RalphS has joined #rdfa

14:53:27 [msporny]

msporny has joined #rdfa

14:55:11 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:55:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:55:21 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #rdfa

14:58:13 [RalphS]

Regrets: Simone

14:59:12 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

14:59:32 [mhausenblas]

zakim, who's here?

14:59:42 [Zakim]

On the phone I see no one

14:59:44 [Zakim]

+Michael_Hausenblas

14:59:46 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:59:47 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ShaneM, msporny, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, myakura

15:00:27 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:00:35 [Steven]

Steven has joined #rdfa

15:00:40 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc#T15-13-22 works for me, Michael

15:00:47 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:00:53 [RalphS]

zakim, ipcaller is Manu

15:01:03 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:01:05 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:01:11 [Zakim]

+Manu; got it

15:01:30 [mhausenblas]

http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc

15:01:49 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

15:02:09 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc.html

15:02:21 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc.txt

15:03:03 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #rdfa

15:03:13 [markbirbeck]

zakim, codes?

15:03:13 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.

15:03:25 [mhausenblas]

zakim, code?

15:03:25 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), mhausenblas

15:04:11 [Zakim]

+??P11

15:04:21 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

15:04:21 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

15:04:25 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

15:04:54 [Zakim]

+benadida

15:05:21 [mhausenblas]

zakim, who's here?

15:05:21 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Manu, Steven, ShaneM, markbirbeck, +1.617.395.aaaa

15:05:23 [Zakim]

On IRC I see benadida, markbirbeck, Steven, ShaneM, msporny, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, myakura

15:05:41 [benadida]

zakim, I am aaaa

15:05:41 [Zakim]

ok, benadida, I now associate you with +1.617.395.aaaa

15:09:03 [benadida]

zakim, pick a victim

15:09:03 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose markbirbeck

15:09:18 [mhausenblas]

ScribeNick: mhausenblas

15:09:25 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:09:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

15:09:31 [mhausenblas]

Topic: Action Items

15:09:38 [mhausenblas]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

15:09:53 [mhausenblas]

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to add implementations page to RDFa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

15:09:55 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:10:23 [mhausenblas]

Ben: I started to move suff

15:10:31 [mhausenblas]

s/suff/stuff

15:10:37 [mhausenblas]

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to remind the WG reviewers about review for FtF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

15:10:39 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:10:47 [mhausenblas]

[NEW] ACTION: Shane to send a link to new editor's draft to Ben [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

15:10:49 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:10:58 [mhausenblas]

Ben: I fwd link to SWD

15:11:04 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

15:11:07 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:11:14 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

15:11:47 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:12:12 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations' status on rdfa.info

15:12:24 [benadida]

s/' status//

15:12:34 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Michael look for a more semantically correct predicate for tests 42-45 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

15:12:39 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:12:47 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0038.html report

15:13:49 [Steven]

I edited the cruft from last week's minutes

15:14:00 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Change the TC accordingly

15:14:06 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

15:14:36 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:14:45 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

15:15:02 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:15:10 [mhausenblas]

Topic: New Test Cases Proposed by Ivan for @instanceof

15:15:23 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0001 Ivan's TC proposal

15:17:04 [RalphS]

Michael: I have looked them over and they appear to be reasonable

15:18:04 [RalphS]

Ralph: I encouraged Ivan to propose these so we had test cases that document our decision w.r.t. subject of @instanceof

15:18:25 [RalphS]

Michael: I'm only being cautious about the process -- want the TF to discuss adding them before we review them

15:18:37 [RalphS]

... Fabien's proposed test cases are more complex

15:20:37 [RalphS]

Mark: I'd prefer to review the proposed tests after Michael has uploaded them to the test suite archive

15:21:10 [RalphS]

ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite

15:21:41 [RalphS]

Michael: Fabien's proposed tests are not atomic; they're quite complex

15:21:57 [RalphS]

Shane: do we have a process for more complex cases?

15:22:14 [RalphS]

scribenick: ralphs

15:22:27 [mhausenblas]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0069.html

15:22:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS

15:23:18 [RalphS]

Michael: the tests are nice but complex

15:23:28 [mhausenblas]

http://sw.joanneum.at/rdfa/rdfadebug/index.php

15:24:04 [mhausenblas]

http://sw.joanneum.at/rdfa/rdfadebug/index.php?preparedSelURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-sop.inria.fr%2Fedelweiss%2Fpeople%2FFabien.Gandon%2Fdocs%2Fw3c%2Frdfa%2Ftests%2F2007%2F09%2F10%2F0047.xhtml

15:24:14 [RalphS]

Ralph: Fabien's proposed 0046 with multiple space-separated properties seems the shorted possible test; what's the problem?

15:26:17 [RalphS]

ACTION: Michael add Fabien's tests to the test suite archive

15:26:27 [RalphS]

ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite archive

15:26:29 [RalphS]

action -3

15:26:51 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:26:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

15:27:32 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Let us review the new TC (Fabien's and Ivan's) together next time

15:27:45 [RalphS]

Topic: Is Primer destined for Note or Rec?

15:28:14 [mhausenblas]

Ben: AFAIU Primer is a note and Syntax goes REC-Track

15:28:40 [mhausenblas]

Steven: Second that

15:29:42 [mhausenblas]

... why having a rec on non-normative stuff

15:30:38 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Tom asked for SWD regarding this issue

15:30:57 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Most SW TR package have this

15:31:21 [mhausenblas]

... REC Track has a precise definition

15:31:46 [mhausenblas]

[[http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html]]

15:32:35 [mhausenblas]

... so Steven is right in saying that there may be more work with it

15:32:55 [mhausenblas]

Steven: May risk that the Primer may hold up the whole package

15:33:16 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Just want to make sure that it si no problem for SWD WG

15:33:30 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: eg GRDDL Primer is a note

15:33:55 [mhausenblas]

... so might be no reason to push the Primer through REC Track

15:34:31 [RalphS]

i/Ben: Let us/scribenick: mhausenblas

15:36:27 [mhausenblas]

Ben: So we have Primer, Syntax, UC, TC

15:36:51 [mhausenblas]

... Syntax goes REC Track

15:36:57 [RalphS]

i/Michael: I have looked/scribenick: ralphs

15:37:06 [mhausenblas]

... Primer and UC are notes

15:37:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS

15:37:34 [benadida]

PROPOSE to bring syntax as rec track, primer and use cases as notes, and test cases as supporting doc for syntax.

15:37:38 [mhausenblas]

+1

15:39:20 [benadida]

RESOLVED

15:39:33 [benadida]

RESOLVED to bring syntax as rec track, primer and use cases as notes, and test cases as supporting doc for syntax.

15:39:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS

15:40:35 [mhausenblas]

Topic: non-prefixed values of @rel

15:41:16 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Proposed the HTML URI

15:41:36 [mhausenblas]

Mark: We seem to have agreed on a pre-processing step

15:41:44 [mhausenblas]

... takes out null values

15:41:54 [mhausenblas]

. and puts them into some NS TBD

15:42:21 [mhausenblas]

... I'd like to see them put in a kind of general space

15:43:05 [mhausenblas]

Ben: The goal is that for people that use DC conventions

15:43:27 [mhausenblas]

... which are not RDFa compatible, to make them work

15:43:43 [mhausenblas]

... ignoring non-prefixed

15:43:56 [mhausenblas]

... so I do favour the pre-processing

15:44:39 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Agree

15:44:59 [mhausenblas]

Manu: What does it mean semantically

15:45:33 [mhausenblas]

Mark: When undefined, certain use cases might be problematic

15:45:34 [Steven]

q+

15:45:36 [RalphS]

q+

15:46:00 [Steven]

q-

15:46:16 [mhausenblas]

Ben: When writing the RDFa extractor - what is the instruction for non-prefixed

15:46:44 [mhausenblas]

... we should focus the discussion

15:46:58 [mhausenblas]

... identify what is part of the RDFa spec

15:47:13 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Right - look into it

15:48:00 [mhausenblas]

Ben: It is ok to say that @rel only excepts prefixed values

15:48:19 [mhausenblas]

... @instanceof does not have this legacy problems

15:48:39 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: For the record. What is the proposal?

15:49:05 [mhausenblas]

Ben: To ignore unprefixed @rels

15:49:25 [mhausenblas]

... after pre-processing

15:49:27 [RalphS]

Mark: the preprocessor will expand the reserved words in the HTML namespace

15:50:14 [RalphS]

... a processor might also have a DC preprocessing step

15:51:01 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Proposal that RDFa defines a generic pre-processing step

15:51:56 [mhausenblas]

... the pre-processing turns known attributes into prefixed ones

15:52:05 [RalphS]

Steven: for @rel and @property both?

15:52:14 [mhausenblas]

... the actual processing ignores all unprefixed ones

15:52:22 [RalphS]

Ben: @property is one we've added

15:53:12 [RalphS]

Mark: it would be nice to be able to use <span xmlns="...foaf..." rel="knows" /> shorthand

15:53:28 [RalphS]

Ben: but that modifies the host language namespace

15:53:51 [mhausenblas]

... bein open for other pre-processing steps

15:53:58 [mhausenblas]

s/bein/being

15:54:15 [Steven]

ack R

15:54:15 [mhausenblas]

ack RalphS

15:55:00 [mhausenblas]

RalphS: So @rel/@rev unprefixed after pre-processing are ignored?

15:55:28 [mhausenblas]

... we should be careful wrt the HTML host language

15:55:44 [mhausenblas]

... reserved words are expanded

15:56:00 [mhausenblas]

... so RDFa extractors can rely on that

15:56:51 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: To state something undefined is problematic

15:57:01 [mhausenblas]

... regarding common usage

15:57:33 [mhausenblas]

Ben: For example take profile in the head

15:57:48 [RalphS]

Ralph: saying "undefined" for a feature that users may come to depend on in some implementation will lead to interoperability problems.

15:58:01 [mhausenblas]

... so we should not overwrite it

15:58:51 [mhausenblas]

Mark: There are two end of the scale

15:59:33 [RalphS]

q+

15:59:37 [mhausenblas]

... just to ensure to make things available

16:00:28 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Might be a solution to put these triple into a non-default graph

16:00:30 [Steven]

zakim, remind me in 0 that it's time

16:00:30 [Zakim]

ok, Steven

16:00:31 [Zakim]

Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time that it's time

16:01:08 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Layering issues, here

16:01:26 [msporny]

q+

16:01:28 [mhausenblas]

... whatever happens in the pre-processing step is up to the application

16:02:22 [mhausenblas]

Mark: range from ignored to undefined

16:02:44 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: ignored means that pre-processing should have been done else

16:03:12 [msporny]

q-

16:03:18 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Towards a proposal ...

16:03:29 [mhausenblas]

... work with buckets

16:03:43 [mhausenblas]

... define which goes into what

16:04:34 [mhausenblas]

Manu: Fine when application-specific pre-processing is done that generates extra triples

16:05:19 [RalphS]

Manu: suggest handling unprefixed values in the same way as "extra triples" -- just say that if these generate triples, they are not in the default graph

16:05:20 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Shouldn't we be more specific

16:06:54 [mhausenblas]

... hard to tell if a document is valid, etc.

16:07:57 [mhausenblas]

Ben: IMHO it is not a RDFa extractor issue

16:08:30 [mhausenblas]

Mark: It is confusing not to state it explicitely

16:08:54 [RalphS]

Ben: if an application generates extra triples, whether they're from unprefixed @rel values or not, they get handled the same way. Don't need to restate this multiple times.

16:10:04 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Just as we defined it at CURIE's

16:11:12 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Enable developer to extract more triples

16:11:20 [mhausenblas]

in a defiend way

16:11:27 [mhausenblas]

s/defiend/defined

16:11:44 [mhausenblas]

Ben: We seem to have a resolution

16:12:13 [mhausenblas]

... non-prefixed @rel/@rev do not generate triples

16:12:27 [RalphS]

("in the default graph")

16:12:39 [benadida]

PROPOSE: @rel and @rev values that are non-prefixed and not in the XHTML reserved words do not generate triples in the default graph

16:12:50 [RalphS]

+1

16:12:52 [mhausenblas]

+1

16:12:52 [msporny]

+1

16:12:57 [Steven]

ok

16:14:24 [mhausenblas]

Mark: For consistency: @property the same?

16:14:28 [Steven]

ok with me

16:14:33 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Separate issue

16:14:33 [Steven]

COnsistency is importnant

16:14:40 [Steven]

s/nant/ant/

16:14:47 [Steven]

s/CO/Co

16:15:25 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: The issue with @rel/@rev is that there is already a usage

16:15:39 [Steven]

and @property is new

16:16:37 [RalphS]

Mark: property="foo" will, by CURIE rules, go into the 'vocab' (i.e. non-default) graph

16:16:55 [RalphS]

... must write property=":foo" to use the in-scope namespace

16:17:10 [RalphS]

... according to the current Syntax document

16:18:07 [markbirbeck]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-rdfa-syntax-20070927/#s_curies

16:19:07 [ShaneM]

+q

16:20:14 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:20:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

16:20:32 [ShaneM]

-q

16:20:55 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Need to continue this discussion, based on the goal

16:21:06 [Steven]

s/RESOLVED/RESOLVED:/

16:21:12 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:21:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

16:21:35 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Acknowledge legacy usage of @rel values

16:21:36 [Steven]

s/RESOLVED/RESOLUTION/

16:21:41 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:21:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

16:22:10 [RalphS]

[I'm interested in the new input from Manu that having different rules for @rel values vs. @property values will be overly confusing]

16:22:17 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email

16:22:36 [RalphS]

[I really want @property="foo" to use the in-scope namespace, but I'm interested in more discussion especially from Manu]

16:22:40 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:22:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

16:22:43 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

16:22:58 [Zakim]

-Manu

16:23:00 [Zakim]

-Michael_Hausenblas

16:23:01 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:23:03 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

16:23:04 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:23:06 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

16:23:07 [Zakim]

Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Steven, Manu, ShaneM, markbirbeck, benadida

16:23:19 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

16:23:19 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa

16:24:44 [RalphS]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:24:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS

16:24:46 [mhausenblas]

mhausenblas has joined #rdfa

16:26:58 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-actions.rdf :

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations' status on rdfa.info [1]

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T15-12-12

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite [2]

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T15-21-10

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite archive [4]

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T15-26-27

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email [5]

16:26:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T16-22-17