DHTML Sub-team Teleconference

27 Jul 2007

See also: IRC log


Al_Gilman, Becky_Gibson, Lisa_Papas, Becky_Gibson, Chris_B, Gregory_J._Rosmaita
Don Evans
Gregory J. Rosmaita




<scribe> scribe: Gregory J. Rosmaita

<scribe> scribenick: oedipus

Becky: if say right-left arrow with menu posted -- does that mean drop down? perhaps is covered (read from draft); with any level it would be same, right?
... spacebar opens actionable item -- exposes or executes?
... when have focus on menu item, pressing enter will execute the menu action

GJR: XHTML2 group interested in 3 states: give focus, hang-fire (inspect), and fire

Becky: nested menus -- not a drop-down menu -- or rather is but vertical instead of horizontal

AG: how do you integrate abstract tree behavior

Becky: right need both

AlG: use menu or menubar consistently should be in best prActices
... if works like menubar, should follow menu keyboard conventions

Becky: ok

<scribe> ACTION: Becky - post to xtech [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/27-wai-xtech-minutes.html#action01]

Don: checkboxes?

Becky: can do without proposal; should decide next one before telecon concludes so can discuss next meeting

Chris: which keys are available by script events if running IE on Windows with JAWS or Window-Eyes?

GJR: there is a passthrough key in most screen readers

AlG: gregory explained how to get through screen-reader, but doesn't mean can get to application or script
... highly educated best-guess at keybindings that will work without conflict; some will require alternate methods; separate line of development around reengineering accesskey -- poster child for fuzzy implementatino and definition; need to be some kind of ARIA approach to getting raw materials in to bind to

<scribe> DonE: beginning to build javascript applications for applications; doing tree views, tab interfaces, etc.; not gracefully handled by at

AlG: grep accessibility lists (w3c-wai-ua@w3.org) for accesskey

GJR: start with existing keybindings defined by devs

AlG: angle in action item to SAP to come up with working input tokenizer (text entry field with hidden grammar to check contents of text entry field) -- they have a validate action -- user can request it -- trick is hotkey in text edit mode also next to a button performing same fucntionality; style guide - anything give keybinding to somewhere there is an isolated action that could be pre-validated -- need right association between label on button and lab
... need second level in overall methodology

Chris: attempted to take WinXP, MSIE7 and JAWS to ascertain what keys are already mapped -- short list; check against mozilla, even less; add window-eyes and you're left with nothing

AlG: widget roles for keyboard access valuable because so much keybindings in AT

Chris: handle elsewhere?

AlG: perceive problem, use cases will get others to solve problem; need test interaction and usability
... part of the solution -- can machine follow from edit box with hotkey to the label that triggers the same event; stress in programming style level

Chris: just wanted to ensure issue on table

AlG: fact that have an issue is clear; what we need is a solution, which Becky is working on

Becky: going to come into conflicts; how does user move focus from rich text editor to toolbar then back to rich text editor; can't make tabbable, will have to assign a key; will come up with proposal for dojo and submit to DHTML for consideration

<scribe> DonE: IE7 versus IE6 -- tabindex of positive number to DIV or SPAN to get focus -- any difference between IE6 and IE7?

Becky: not had to do anything different for IE6 and IE7

AlG: if have test case, bring up to mark silvey -- microsoft rep to PF;

Don: some works in IE6 some in IE7, in our experience


Becky: checkboxes have checked, unchecked - space is trigger

AlG: how many systems support that?

Becky: have to check; for radio buttons, enter isn't supported; checkboxes enter and space

GJR: tri-state for checkbox;

Becky: isn't it part of group? what is use case

AlG: software install -- summary install -- get checkboxes in advanced mode, can partially check options

<scribe> DonE: how do you trigger a partially checked check?

Becky: only a programmatic state?

AlG: if activate custom, enter dialog; if use to check and uncheck, will push a partial?
... if using WAI ARIA states on checkbox, can have partial value

<scribe> DonE: ARIA states checked unchecked partially checked -- question is, which is child of other

Becky: IE7 only supports 2 options
... don't use key if grouped - go from one to another

AlG: caret in edit box, hit enter and submitted form, rather than making newline in text field

Becky: how to do that without a save or cancel button is still unknown

Chris: checked or unchecked - partial derived state -- programmatically set

Becky: checked and unchecked by mouse click or spacebar -- a toggle

<scribe> DonE: partial checkbox is programmatically determined

Becky: specify that all checkboxes have labels?

AlG: spec will require that -- can help people in coaching on good practice

Chris: inverse - if on partially checked checkbox and hit space should all children be affected? typical GUI behavior

AlG: chasing a will'o'the wisp -- if light, full and custom are 3 choices, hitting spacebar should get you into finer grain

Becky: is a case where use GUI app, have nested checkboxes; pick one, top-level checkbox shows partial

AlG: does spacebar select all or clear all -- what is sequence

<scribe> DonE: partial to off to on -- can't get back to partial; if hit spacebar, turns it off, if go into details all children checkboxes have been cleared

Chris: font list - if turn on half of them, should first click on partially checked checkbox

AlG: need to check other apps to find out if uniformity applied

<scribe> DonE: reflected in options

GJR: often when use multiple select option, often loose focus when inspecting options; could substitute checkboxes with partial states (lynx model: comobo boxes as radio buttons; multiple select combo boxes as checkboxes)

Becky: mapped browser behavior, stick a style rule over it, for performance reasons decided to let UA do most of the work;

AlG: pragmatic decision need to spell out clearly in Best Practices; clear conflict between browser behavior between browsers -- there is an HTML coding for radio button functionality, best practice is don't script, use HTML/XHTML -- feel will be different on different UAs,

<scribe> DonE: checkboxes: 2 state and 3 state; 2 state select or deselect with space; 3 state if partially checked, spacebar fully checked and so are child elements

LisaP: from SAP, volunteered to be integrator editor for best practices document which include keybinding decisions

<scribe> DonE: valueable skill

LisaP: about a month away

<scribe> DonE: recommendations for agenda?

Becky: Earl has a lot to say about issues posted to list; not sure ready to share -- brings up issues for ARIA team -- dojo accordian container just a tab container, earl working on much more complex accordion -- have to figure out how to distinguish through UI; will ping Earl offlist
... need to add a few more use cases for menus to ensure they are covered

AlG: request for ChrisB - how to construct context menus

ChrisB: how to move focus to create a dom event that at notices

AlG: agenda items for this group or no?

ChrisB: generalized technique -- how some of these things can be implemented

AlG: input tokenizer needs menus; RichS working on drag-and-drop which includes menus
... idea of a prologue -- authored introduction; is there markup for author to indicate "this is what you need to pay attention to" -- blew off aw custom rule, but still a use case hanging out there;
... context help and prologue -- need use cases

Becky: need to address tabindex behavior and focus; one thing in control taht has tabindex=0 -- do we agree? should we make it official? from forum questions, think need to address

AlG: may need 2 techniques: one that relies on ARIA support, one that shous how built-in portions of ML can be effectively used
... RichS has put work into talking about use cases on PF/ARIA wiki


GJR: will send IRC log to DonE

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Becky - post to xtech [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/27-wai-xtech-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/07/27 17:01:52 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Gregory J. Rosmaita
Found ScribeNick: oedipus

WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: Don_Evans, Al_Gilman, Becky_Gibson, Gregory_J._Rosmaita)
Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
such as: <dbooth> Present+ Al_Gilman, Becky_Gibson, Lisa_Papas, Becky_Gibson, Chris_B, Gregory_J._Rosmaita

Present: Al_Gilman Becky_Gibson Lisa_Papas Becky_Gibson Chris_B Gregory_J._Rosmaita
Got date from IRC log name: 27 Jul 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/07/27-wai-xtech-minutes.html
People with action items: - becky post

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