See also: IRC log
<csma> clear agenda
<ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 24 July 2007
<ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
<ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0128.html
<agiurca> kakim, mute me
<PaulaP> not really, sorry
<csma> scribe: Adrian Giurca
<csma> scribenick: agiurca
he can try :)
<johnhall> SBVR - nothing to report
<sandro> Manhattan 26-27 option open until Thursday.
<sandro> ACTION: Christopher to double check whether Manhattan Sept 26-27 option is available. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-329 - Double check whether Manhattan Sept 26-27 option is available. [on Christopher Welty - due 2007-07-31].
<sandro> If not, we fallback to Hawthorne Sept 27-28.
<sandro> So we are definitely meeting in New York State, with IBM Hosting, either Sept 26-27 or Sept 27-28. Exact dates and location to be announced on Thursday.
<sandro> (confirmed by chair.)
csma: Technical Design...
<sandro> ACTION-323 not concluded.
I'm sorry but I have a bad phone line.
I cannot listen ...
<AxelPolleres> scribenick: AxelPolleres
<csma> scribe: axel polleres
Harold: suggest to postpone to
the end of today's telecon, could give a summary.
... since Michael not here.
csma: please post regrets if you don't attend.
Dave: Original discussion: What
does RIF need to say about dataset.
... first issue: dataset identification
... reference to datesets (possibly remote).
... Second issue: How to describe access to that data, format, datamodel, etc. (using metadata)
Dave: out of scope of rif of how to turn dataset Id (URI) into actual dataset.
Hassan: this is precisely what KM3 had in mind to do.
<ChrisW> there is no RDFS data model
Hassan: see http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/KM3
csma: Think we had agreement to not define our own schema/metamodel language.
Hassan: But this is what asn07 is doing.
<sandro> (I'm totally baffled by what Hassan is saying....)
Hassan: we should avoid adhoc languages, and reuse existing.
Jeff: Question for Dave: I didn't see RDF data model for RIF in the document. Isthere a reason for that?
<Hassan> Sandro: what is baffling in what I said?
<sandro> I don't see how KM3 (or asn07) solves the problem Dave is talking about.
Dave: Not particularly, could be added.
<Hassan> It allows describing the meta-metamodel
<Hassan> This allows then to parameterize the data model
csma: We had a preliminary list
of datamodels at f2f6 containing XML Schema, RDFS, OWL,
... we had agreement not to require one particular data model upfront, but to require one via metadata for data models.
<sandro> okay, I have a hint of an understanding now, Hassan.
<hak> having the metametamodel is used therefore to support things like navigating through data in some so-described data-model
<sandro> Dave: Data-Set-Identification is separate from the Data Models discussion
Dave: 2 issues: a) a ruleset requires a particular data model and needs to declare that b) all data in RIF have to conform to a meta data model like KM3 or MOF, these are separate issues.
<sandro> I wonder whether Axel or I understood Dave correctly, because we are disagreeing about what he said.
csma: Do we need to define the
data model or do we only need to refer to it?
... Those are different problems.
Dave: We solved the problem
already for RDF.
... Should we, for instance for XML Schema define it likewise, or define a more general way to refer to different data models?
<sandro> (data-set-identification == data-source-location)
csma: question: Frames as defined
in BLD at the moment (which could be used to carry RDF data)
... can values of slots be frames again?
Gary: We also need lists.
csma: currently we have sets of values for slots.
<Harold> DaveR, would your distinction similarly apply to other (semweb) formats, specifically OWL 1.0? TBoxes corresponding to rulesets and -- external -- ABoxes corresponding to separate data sets? If yes, do you have any corresponding experience with such a distinction for OWL?
csma: Is what we have now enough for navigating instance data?
Gary: 1) Do we have a data model? 2) If yes, how do we map to existing data models
(unsure whether I got that right)
<sandro> csma: It's not that RIF doesn't define a new data model, it's that it doesn't define a new data modeling (schema) language. [ is that right? ]
csma: Of course we have a data model, but we do not define any schema language. Our data model should be as simple as possible and encompass widely used data models, ie those should be easy to map.
Gary: Don't think it is a goal to have an on prupose poor datamodel and tweak existing ones in.
Dave: As soon as we have hierarchies in the data model, we have more of an issue.
Gary: Can we than write rules that talk about the class hierarchy
Hassan: agree with dave, unlikely
that we can have something to make all those existing data
... often rules DO modify the data model. How do we abstract from the data model using some classification scheme?
csma: RIF has to know the datamodel in some way.
Hassan: Who's gonna do that? (mapping)
csma: the receiver
... e.g. When you specify that your rules operate on the MISMO schema, the reciever has to know how to map its own format onto MISMO.
Hassan: Of course, but we should identify sets of languages which can be readily mapped.
csma: We should have it for XML Schema, RDF, OWL, and that's it. But users need to know how to map these onto their own data model.
Hassan: Anyway, to express a data model, either we use something like KM3, which is systematic, or we do it adhoc.
<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask Dave how the data-set-identification problem is addressed for the RDF example.
csma: We do not need it
sandro: I heard Dave saying that for RDF its kinda solved, but we do not have a solution for the dataset identification problem.
Dave: If we use IRIs for
identification, we don't want to mandate http
... we should specify the minimum.
... minimum: We have an id and the posisibility to annotate it with metadata.
(sandro, can you sum up your last argument yourself, pls)
<MichaelKifer> Christian, can u write the options in the chat?
<DaveReynolds> csma: Would like opinion of group on options for data models ...
<csma> option 1: All we need is a specification of how the RIF data model (frame) maps onto a limited number of standard format used for interchanging data model (e.g. XML-S)
<csma> option 2: RIF should define its own meta-modelling language
<Hassan> I vote for option 2 whether KM3 or ASN06++
csma: Option 2 includes option
... if we go for option 2 we probably go way beyond what we want to achieve by RIF.
<Hassan> Option 1 proposes to use the ad hoc data model than we have to express most other data models?
csma: hte point is not to be able to describe XML schema in RIF, but how to reference it.
<Harold> +1 to option 1 (RIF already has relations, equation-defined functions, frames, signatures, prim types)
sandro: can we move on in the agenda or give an action item to somebody to seek resolution of this?
<scribe> ACTION: Dave to update his dataset/datamodel page according to f2f6 discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-330 - Update his dataset/datamodel page according to f2f6 discussion [on Dave Reynolds - due 2007-07-31].
<MichaelKifer> i am not sure i understand what either of these options really means
<scribe> ACTION: csma to clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - csma
<Harold> -1 to option 2 (we didnt want yet another datamodel)
<ChrisW> Axel, use "Christian" instead of csma
<ChrisW> (the action was not created)
Michael: main thing to resolve
... first understnading signatures, second "real" sorts.
... I kept the signatures but kept the sorts.
... but only took out sorts for variables, but kept datatypes like RDF and XML literals.
<DaveReynolds> ACTION: Chrisitian to clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html#action04]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Chrisitian
Michael: the basic logic now does distinguish between predicate, function and constant symbols, more restrictive than before (also not allowing same symbol with different arities).
<DaveReynolds> ACTION: Christian to clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-331 - Clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-07-31].
Michael: close to classic first-order logic.
csma: Wasn't aware that removing sorts would remove typed variables.
Hassan: By saying that you now have separation for predicates, functions, ... that ammounts just to sorts?
Michael: That was a requirement for the basic dialect, it is not precluded for other dialects.
csma: You can still say a variable belongs to a class?
Michael: THe different is with
typed variables you can do syntactic checks at compile time,
which is in general undecidable. Now you can do dynamic checks
for the values of variables only.
... With sorts you can only tie variables to a sort (for constants) whereas with classification terms you can tie to e.g. a class which is more general, but not chackable statically.
csma: (question about declaration of variables)
Michael: You (csma) mean
something like "for every X in class" ... This is bounded
quantification, wich is syntactic sugar only.
... the question is whether you want it as part of the language.
Gary: What that really ammount to for me is strong typing where runtime checking is not really an option.
Michael: I think we can still
accomodate strong type checking, by classification terms like
isInteger(x). Translating back into a language with strong
checking is still possible to do.
... to some extent, but can be improved with real sorted variables.
... functionalitywise it is not different.
csma: What else than bounded quantification are Classification terms for?
Michael: It is necessary for conceptual modelling
csma: don't we suppose conceptual modelling in OWL, UML, etc.
ChrisW: Why don't a subclass relation just corresponds to a rule?
Michael: it does
<DaveReynolds> +1 to ChrisW, the subclass relation is a problem
ChrisW: But as soon as we do that it looks like we do another conceptual modelling language
<GaryHallmark> +1 to Michael, need something to map to
<Harold> Of the signature names bool, i, f0, f1, p0, p1, etc. in an extension dialect we could allow refining i, the one for individual objects, into our primitive types long, string, decimal, time, dateTime (and iri).
Michael: The exercise of Frames is exactly the same thing.
<Harold> So, long subClassOf i, string subClassOf i, etc.
Axel: We need rules also to *express* datamodels. We have a use case for e.g. advancing OWL expressivity by rule
Dave: ??? (can you please type what you said)
Michael: If you translate RDFS, you should put it in a scope.
<scribe> ACTION: Dave to state his argument in an email. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html#action06]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-332 - State his argument in an email. [on Dave Reynolds - due 2007-07-31].
csma: time to adjourn
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/nit/not/ Succeeded: s/postpone/postpone to the end of today's telecon/ Succeeded: s/dataset/datesets (possibly remote)/ Succeeded: s/asn03/asn07/ Succeeded: s/reuqire/require/ Succeeded: s/ option 1/ option 2/ Succeeded: s/adjorn/adjourn/ Found Scribe: Adrian Giurca Found ScribeNick: agiurca Found ScribeNick: AxelPolleres Found Scribe: axel polleres Scribes: Adrian Giurca, axel polleres ScribeNicks: agiurca, AxelPolleres Default Present: Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, +1.800.555.aaaa, Dave_Reynolds, DavidHirtle, +1.604.683.aabb, +1.800.555.aacc, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, JeffP, agiurca, StellaMitchell, +49.892.180.aadd, IgorMozetic, PaulaP, johnhall, Gary_Hallmark, AxelPolleres, Sandro, +39.047.101.aaee, MichaelKifer Present: Harold Hassan_Ait-Kaci csma +1.800.555.aaaa Dave_Reynolds DavidHirtle +1.604.683.aabb +1.800.555.aacc LeoraMorgenstern ChrisW JeffP agiurca StellaMitchell +49.892.180.aadd IgorMozetic PaulaP johnhall Gary_Hallmark AxelPolleres Sandro +39.047.101.aaee MichaelKifer Regrets: Fran�oisBry JosDeBruijn PaulVincent AllenGinsberg Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0128.html Got date from IRC log name: 24 Jul 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html People with action items: chrisitian christian christopher csma dave[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]