Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

11 Jul 2007


See also: IRC log



Roland_, Steven, ShaneM, [IPcaller], +004670855aaaa, TIna, Gregory_Rosmiata, +0208761aabb, markbirbeck, Alessio, Rich
Steve, Roland




<alessio> hallo

<Steven> hi there

<markbirbeck> (guessing)

<Steven> zakim IP is Alessio

<alessio> thanks steven

<Steven> Scribe: Gregory

<Steven> ScribeNick: OedipusWrecked

SP: announcements: questionaire for coming calls - which weeks people taking vacation;
... please fill out form if not already
... also questionaire about next Face2Face in Spain -- PLEASE fill in whether coming or not
... possibility of remote attendance, but need a head-count A.S.A.P.


SP: have an action item to ask for a wiki; told that w3c is going to transfer / migrate to mediawiki, which is probably preferable; put action item on hold until migration complete

transition call for XHTML1; don't anticipate problems, but for those of you interested in basic, look at draft of spec for obvious editorial errors; shane & i looked it over yesterday

SP: XHTML1 Basic assertions need to be explained -- why is one thing orange and the rest not?
... next step is CR -- assuming tomorrow's call goes well, will be in CR in a few days; need to ping jan -- need to discuss pattern for testing
... had comment from W3C team that should have tests for input mode and should have at least 2 implementations that ACTUALLY do something with it
... possible to ignore, but not possible for us to ignore;
... feature should be tested and excercised at least twice
... that is fine - need test to try out and implementations that actually do what the feature specifies

Shane: putting stuff in mobile UAs that take a while; working on implementations here - perhaps can get implementation on our side
... here?

Mark: don't know

SP: put the keyboard in a state so that you get particular characters by default -- capitals, alphanumeric characters

<ShaneM> XHTML Basic editors draft has been updated and is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-basic-20070711/

MB: would they be available by themselves -- can have braille; build for what's available and switch to that mode when necessary

SP: good point to bring up in XForms group; have mobile implementations there

<yamx> zakim+??P37 is yamx

SP: traditional call tomorrow at regular time - link in the agenda, please pass an editorial eye over it; had a comment from within w3c team to exit CR need tests that test optional features -- in particular input mode -- 2 implementations that do input mode
... does that seem likely in short time frame?

Jan: i think so

SP: do you have a feeling for when would be likely to exit CR (2 implementations for each feature)

Alessio: 1.0 and 1.1 test space;

SP: by october?

Alessio: next february was target, but have 1 to 1.1 tests; new tests will use mobile profile 1.1 will already be published by then

SP: last test results you sent to list, most of tests not run; have to have more tests of the tests

Alessio: test for mobile 1.1; in isreal have test for input mode; rest will be derrived from ARIA profile

SP: need potential date for coordination call -- october or 3 months later

RESOLUTION: target to exit CR with completed tests: October 2007

scribe's correction - not a coordination call, but a joint call

<yamx> OMA has test fests in September (TestFest21) and November(TestFest22).

SP: replied to schema group - posted proposed reply; if anyone knows modularization PLEASE take a look at my comments and make sure that you agree -- looking for help, especially shane and mark and anyone else who knows schemas and modularization

role and access

SP: access module - shane must send proposal; for role, were going to go to last call but...

Shane: ready to go as far as i am concerned - put a draft up and see what happens

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xhtml-role

SP: have public draft and new editor's draft from this month (july 2007); is everyone happy with us taking it to last call

Rich: yes

SP: would anyone object to us taking this to last call?

RESOLUTION: take role module to last call; SP will set in motion after negotiating space and time with Hypertext CG;

SP: we have a face2face where can deal with last call issues at face2face; if we suggest a last call that ends on the last day of august, gives SP time to chase down people and collect all comments?
... six weeks reasonable?


<ShaneM> Note that the spec does NOT have a schema implementation in it. My last call comment will be that it needs one, but that we need M12N 1.1 ready first.

<scribe> ACTION: SteveP - prepare last call draft for the role module [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/11-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

SP: shane - interesting last call comment; could put on hold and give priority to getting modularization 1.1 out the door

Shane: no No NO!

SP: then have to meet last call for roles

Shane: if don't have schema implementation, will get formal objection

Rich: i concur

Shane: modularization 1.1 is ready; made changes we are going to implement

SP: add schema comments to database; then ask for transition call on modularization

Shane: going on holiday - can we wait until i get back?

SP: yes, but just to be clear, next step is to add comments to schema

Shane: yes

accessmodule and targetid

SP: are we happy with "next id in target area"? more sensible to say, yes, next one of those in order; take list in attribute order, of take list and find first one in document order; need to agree which is best

Shane: targetrole takes mulitple values; have them all do the same thing; need to resolve potential confusion

Rich: documentorder necessary

SP: either way is implementable; let's not make decisions based on easiest for author, need it to be correct
... can't replicate in any other way, already there
... or using another feature, such as TABINDEX;
... should be sure feature doesn't collide with next focus - default action key in a way
... if i have target = a and land on a which has next focus of b, follow document order in that route?

??: document order not order of the list -- order that one navigates, should be plusNextFocus; other possiblity list of icons to be cycled through using a key definition

Rich: pass over normal focus?

SP: yes

??: id or role?

SP: didn't know if could have multiple ids; one roll gives many

??: understand your arguments, but if have doc with roles a b & c - TargetRole a b c - when activate access key, where does it go -- to all the As and then the Bs or movev onto the Bs

Rich: want multiple accesskeys for each role
... next in sequence is any one of the following

SP: rule for id

??: just wanted consistency -- people have discussed mapping in different fora - can always come back to it; like a flag that says these items qualify for focus, then provide option to go down list of As or tab to next set of Bs

SP: example i used to show NextFocus working: in a table want to navigate in different order than UA; specifying with NextFocus is something that overrides document order

MB: good example - if have table, can go to any row or column, set an accesskey for SeekTheCell -- knock off the head, just have the cell, should still do in row order or column order

SP: default document order; if redifine using NextFocus to do column order navigation - using accesskeys should honor that route through the table
... next focus redefines what document order is
... allows author to skip non-navigatable sections - but non-navigatable section still available; tab from one table to next table without interspersed text

Rich: when end of document wraps around standard?

SP: yes

MB: some browsers, go off the document into the chrome; actually a bug; we defined it in XHTML2

SP: should declare going to chrome in tabnavigation is invalid

Rich: incorrect behavior

GJR: +1

SP: so treat tab navigation to the chrome as abberant behavior?

MB: what next?

SP: where the definition should go - module is independent of NextFocus; could have lang with accesskey but not next focus; put in access module what happens when have NextFocus like mechanism, or put into NextFocus module, say this redefines concept of document order; should we use the term "navigation order"? -- perhaps that is the answer

Rich: should be "navigation order"; have a flowto mechanism in ARIA - if there is one id, go to next id, can skip the order -- this is Assisstive Tech, not UAs; if multiple IDs, user should be given a choice of which to navigate to

SP: only 1 ID per element

MB: do we not have a concept of navigation order?

SP: not as such - should introduce concept

MB: if conflict in navigation order - sequence defined in explicit way; role and ids allow to stop if matches role in list, if not hop over it
... could allow both attributes at the same time

<Tina> I'm having a REAL bad line.

SP: yes,
... id main and any element that have corresponding roles; couple of menues with IDs some with roles
... sub-sets of navigation order

shane: just don't know what to do next

RESOLUTION: targetrole and targetid can take multiple values; accessvalue can have one or more; defines subset of navigation order, which is something we must define;

Rich: in HTML4 context, TABINDEX

SP: in XHTML2 will be tabindex plus document order

<markbirbeck> ...plus nextfocus.

SP: may have seen email to MB; question about multiple ids on single element; XML Schema group has decided to allow multiple IDs on an element; don't know when that behavior will be defined, so can do what we need without breaking rules
... no reason for single ID restriction; nothing really breaks if something has 2 names; sent comment to XML WG answered, yes, this is a bug, needs to be fixed; resolved to change it, so heads up


Rich: like what done in XHTML2

SP: discussed endlessly and came up with solution; HTML5 case - allow image to have content - not to be empty element, but element with children; if source fails, image not available, image loading off, can use content of the image element

Rich: image shows can't navigate content, so where going to get description? ATs can get text for you; description relative to an item on same page -- describedby; objection to longdesc is someone has to create whole new web page and maintain it

MB: image as container fallback text
... text might say "you have image loading turned off, please turn on

SP: something that performs the image if not there -- that's fallback -- alternative content

MB: longdesc implies this is a description of this item; 2 exist at same time; not same thing if multiple fallbacks

SP: the whole point of fallback in XHTML2 is to say these 2 things are equivalent, end of story; move longdesc into document

Rich: like XHTML2 and describedby what need to push

GJR: will add links to minutes to wiki page on longdesc; and point to describedby URI test page

meeting adjourned

<Tina> Who is 'MB' again?

MB is Michael Birbeck (sp?)

<Steven> Mark Birbeck

<markbirbeck> Steven--if we were to give special status to text used in fallbacks then we could cover all use-cases. We could simply say in XHTML 2 that the UA should make fallback text 'available' regardless of which of the items is actually used. Then it really does become like @longdesc, and it also means that Rich doesn't need to have a separate area for his descriptive text.

URI for HTML Wiki discussion of longdesc: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention

<Steven> I agree Mark, good idea

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: SteveP - prepare last call draft for the role module [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/11-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2008/03/13 16:19:46 $

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Found Scribe: Gregory
Found ScribeNick: OedipusWrecked
Default Present: Roland_, Steven, ShaneM, [IPcaller], +004670855aaaa, TIna, Gregory_Rosmiata, +0208761aabb, markbirbeck, Alessio, Rich
Present: Roland_ Steven ShaneM [IPcaller] +004670855aaaa TIna Gregory_Rosmiata +0208761aabb markbirbeck Alessio Rich
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jul/0010
Got date from IRC log name: 11 Jul 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/07/11-xhtml-minutes.html
People with action items: stevep

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