See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: JR
CL: 2.1.2 Keyboard (No
Exception): ...
... Can keyboard settings StickyKeys be interfered with
KF: Prob not bad to have overarching statement
CL: Not a major issue, but maybe
under Advisory
... 2.2.3 Pausing: Moving, blinking, scrolling, ...
... Just moving content that is pure decoration? Include
blinking, scrolling, and auto-updating as well in the second
sentence.
JR: Maybe need to define moving to include other things.
CL: 2.4.3 Focus Order: If a Web
page can be navigated sequentially,...
... I'd like to see the How to section of this guideline
contain an example of a form (like composing an email message)
in a Web page with left side and top navigation bars. If the
form controls all have tabindex values greater than zero and
the navbars have no tabindex values, will this page meet the
success criteria?
JR: Subjective...
CL: Really can mess up SR users
JR: What are they trying to do?
CL: If you're tried to set up tab
order, can't let it become broken
... Would like my example clearly spelled out
KF: Classic example of situation where people may not know what ot do
JR: Bad sign that we are having trouble understanding this.
CL: Presentation is also
problematic
... 2.4.4 Link Purpose (Context): The purpose of each link can
be determined from the link text and its programmatically
determined link context
... In the definition of "programmatically determined link
context" and in the techniques for this guideline, the term
"sentence" is used, and it talks about the screen reader
providing commands to read a sentence. There is no semantic
markup for a sentence and no programmatic way for a screen
reader to determine a sentence in HTML, so don't use that term.
A screen reader should be able to handle the other techniques
involving parent element text, element attrib
... No semantic markup foer what is a sentence.
PP: Agree
CL: Also, why is there a separate guideline for 2.4.8 Link Purpose (Link Text): The purpose of each link can be identified from the link text. (Level AAA) Just for different levels of compliance?
JR: Agree that this not needed.
CL: 2.4.5 Multiple Ways: More
than one way is available to locate content within a set of Web
pages where content is not the result of, or a step in, a
process
... Is content only visible content or does it also include
alternative content such as alt text, title text, etc?
... It should be.
... 2.4.9 Section Headings: Where content is organized into
sections, the sections are indicated with headings.
... ckl: If using the title attribute of a frame and ARIA live
region properties are sufficient or advisory techniques in
addition to using the heading element, then I would reword this
guideline to use more inclusive terminology. Maybe just
changing the word "headings" to "titles" would be better.
JR: Agree
PP: Maybe sections are named.
CL: 4.1 Maximize compatibility
with current and future user agents, including assistive
technologies
... An assistive technology cannot be a user agent on its own -
it requires the browser's (or multimedia player's, etc)
interpretation of the markup and its implementation of that
markup in a DOM or accessibility API. The wording of this
guideline can impact what we do in UAAG 2.0 to distinguish the
responsibilities of base user agents (browsers, players, etc)
from extensions and assistive technologies. Maybe reword this
guideline to:
Maximize compatibility with current and future base user agents as well as extensions and assistive technologies - and work with WCAG to provide an updated definition of user agent
CL: UA group is trying to
distinguish the relationship between ua's and at's.
... Also AT's can't get info directly.
JR: Like CL's defn of ua.
CL: 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value: For
all user interface components, the name and role can be
programmatically determined; states, properties, and values
that can be set by the user can be programmatically determined
and programmatically set; and notification of changes to these
items is available to user agents, including assistive
technologies.
... This information is made available to the base user agent
(browser, player), which then makes the info programmatically
set and made programmatically determined (through the DOM or
accessibility APIs) for the assistive technology and user agent
extensions. I think the AT and browser extensions need to be
separated from the base user agent.
KF: Took a look at
PERCEIVABLE
... Guideline 1.1 Provide text alternatives for any non-text
content so that it can be changed into other forms people need
such as large print, Braille, speech,
symbols or simpler language
KF: This seems a bit watered down
to me in the sense that it sounds like the purpose of the
providing of the alternative text here is largely for
conversion. This ignores at minimum the population of folks who
for whatever reason do not use pictures but are not doing any
kind of conversion. As written this just seems too vague to
me.
... Need to think of better wording.
... 1.3.3 Size, Shape, Location: Instructions provided for
understanding and operating content do not rely on shape, size,
visual location, or orientation of
components. (Level A)
KF: Resize text: Visually rendered text can be resized without assistive technology
JR: Most user agents can do this if you let them.
KF: What is really be asked of
from authors is not clear
... 2.2.5 Interruptions: Interruptions, such as updated
content, can be postponed or suppressed by the user, except
interruptions involving an
emergency. (Level AAA)
KF: Should be at least AA.
... This is fairly widely implemented
... Often authors are allowing this e.g. sports tickers
... Often there are diff options for updating
CL Agree it should be higher
KF: Reading through all these
guidelines I’m struck with the general impression that
assistive technology is given a higher priority than user
agents. This is perhaps somewhat subtle but I guess my point,
similar to what I now see Jim said, is that by and large the AT
gets the majority of what it presents from the user agent and
I’m not sure the guidelines represent this as well as
they could.
... Once again seems like ATs put ahead of UAs
CL: I was saying that too
PP: Lotsof comments have to do
with artificial split between perceivable vs
understandable
... Examples blurred right away in 1.1
JR: Does mix up the
rationales
... Into the guideline text
PP: Examples prob better images, etc
CL: Takes away from purity of guideline - should be moved to "Understandin" doc
JR: Agree
PP: 1.1.1
... CAPTCHA: If the purpose of non-text content is to confirm
that content is
being
accessed by a person rather than a computer, then text alternatives that
identify and describe the purpose of the non-text content are provided and
alternative forms in different modalities are provided to accommodate
different
disabilities."
JR: Agree
... Digression on CAPTCHA
PP: = 1.1 Key Terms
... = 1.3.2
... Another perceivable vs. understandable problem...
... Talking aobut meaning
JR: OK
PP: = 1.3.3
... Same problem again.
CL: In general there is some funny wording - some start with noun, some with verb
KF: SHould be these things "alone"
JR: We should keep this in here to call attention to this.
1.2.1 Captions (prerecorded)
JR: Wonders if this would actually be covered by taking oguidelines as a whole
3.1.6 A mechanism is available for identifying specific pronunciation of
words where meaning is ambiguous without knowing the pronunciation.
CL: Not sure of AT support for RUBY
Jim: One of the techniques is "adding error text via the DOM" - will the UA
render the information on the screen, and will AT - specifically screen
readers - reveal the inserted DOM text to the user?
(for 3.3.2)
CL: Not sure there is a programmatic way to do this.
PP: No relation for "error"
CL: AT doesn't know where to look.
CL: Not here JUly 5th, Aug 2nd
PP: Might not be around in 2nd week of July
KF: Not here July 5th
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: JR Inferring ScribeNick: JR Default Present: KFord, JR, cklaws, [IBM] Present: KFord JR cklaws [IBM] Regrets: Jim Allan Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007AprJun/0054.html Got date from IRC log name: 14 Jun 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-ua-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]