See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe: Gregory Rosmaita
<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus
TW: expected keyboard commands for widgets -- how should a tab panel be interacted with; becky working on dojo (ajax); AOL and Google working on these issues, Jon G is member of an email working group
haven't made progress; moved to XTech so that could get more participation; biweekly calls - little email
TW: immediate needs - where is there a sample site; Al Gilman getting ARIA wiki together, place to post, becky has wiki on her own site, but probably need to migrate once ARIA wiki created; end is to have a document that would list desired keyboard commands for widgets
JonG: building a series of test widgets; part of documentation is keyboard support; want to ensure best practices; consistency of keystrokes; will send a link to current test
TW: send to XTech
JonG: what is URI of becky's wiki?
becky: been using my WIKI to capture definitions; hash out proposals and have editors to clean up
TW: proposals via email; when people have exammples, send a URI
becky: been making decisions and
making things with dojo - www.dojotool.org - nightly builds
(may not be updated nightly)
... do a lot on the dojo wiki to document what we are doing for the widgets we are working on
TW: what makes it easier to get
comments from end users and other folks? tell them to check out
a TabPanel and give feedback -- if works, perhaps that becomes
de facto keyboard gesture; now that Dojo has gone ahead, AOL
working on keyboard access here, JonG working on ARIA test
suites at CITA -- ideas for more exposure?
... tried to spark discussion -- need mechanism for free discussion about behavior of particular widget
David: wiki a good idea; perhaps have a big table of widgets, layouts, etc. link to examples, notes as to why we chose things
Bruce: some decisions made through dojo work; still makes sense to have seperate wiki, pointing to dojo; focus should be accessibility
becky: can only hear every other word
Bruce: wiki still makes sense even though dojo done a lot of implementations; link to dojo wiki as proof of concept or examples; central repository
becky: don't have problem keeping wiki; backed off because don't want to have to post everything individually or open access to my web site; only issue with dojo is that a lot of the work still isn't done; going through a major overhaul -- redoing widgets, use bug-tracking system to ask for featureX and link to wiki, can agree or disagree, but may not be working; menu in pretty good shape; keyboard support for context menu implemented; checkboxes and radio but
Bruce: links to dojo - no full implementation, but this is what is being worked upon
TW: what is the most efficient way to do this: capture end result on wiki and put a pointer to wiki page to wai-xtech list? ask for feedback - does it work, does it not work; what is best way to get feedback
becky: sometimes get sporadic response from XTech, most times nothing
JonG: biweekly telecons - agenda of which widgets should be addressed; get consensus on keystrokes -- want to work on harder stuff
TW: like biweekly meeting; TV
Raman doesn't like phone - prefers email discussion
... keep momentum going, may have a meeting next week and then biweekly thereafter; developers need to tell us what is the same and what is different?
becky: grid has serious issue --
is it like spreadsheet with no focus on header, or do you need
focus on the header, how does it differentiate from table?
particularly thorny problem: focus in headers or not
... allow people to havigate through actual headers; in cell, only get into row 1 column 1; in table with TableHeader should people be allowed to navigate header
JonG: immediate benefit: textfield combo box, tree view, slider -- we could review those at first telecon, and update them to refelct consensus of group
becky: TabPanel one i have additional questions on
TW: preview, TabPanel, and slider; may only get through 1 widget in a call, whatever doesn't get covered gets carried to next meeting
<becka11y> tree proposal is here: http://www.weba11y.com/styleguide/index.php?title=Tree
JonG: what about dedicating portions of meeting to different widgets; give people a week to think about other people's thoughts
... if there is a base implementation, when post agenda -- talk about TabPanel - there is one implementation in dojo that does X; at least gives us a base to start on call; repeat for each widget; where no work done on widget, a free-for-all until comes up on call -- might need to answer questions first: do headers need to have focus? what is diff between email grids and spreadsheet grids? sorting issues into questions that guide us; posting that type of info
... is friday at noon good for people on call?
becky: fridays are hard
TW: is there a day folks would prefer; want a standing meeting and meeting time, work on getting those working on implementations to code up test samples for us
David: anything but wednesday
JonG: mondays and wednesdays bad
becky: if works for most people i'm ok with that; if can't make it, will track via email; not going to be here next week -- memorial day holiday
TW: then need to make it june 1 at noon ESDT, 9 PSDT
Resolved: will meet biweekly beginning 1 june 2007 at noon EDST
TW: everytime i turn around there
is either an intellectual property issue, need to get a
baseline down and then get agreement and consensus; what do
people want behaviours to be?
... focus on tree and TabPanel and slider to begin with
JonG: sent link to XTech
TW: mirroring standard OS behaviors?
JonG: up and down arrow move between items, right and left expand and collapse; haven't done a lot of testing with ATs, but works in MSAA Inspector (info is there);
TW: do you have to TAB to get content?
JonG: once in the tree, use arrow keys, if use TAB, would TAB out of tree; could toggle expand/collapse with spacebar; do we want a toggle or standfast fucntionality
becky: tree written up; what i submitted to web mail group took comments and put in actual style guide
TW: active regions need keyboard behaviors pre-defined or leave it to individual devs?
becky: can't implement active regions yet, dojo has to work with FireFox 2; even if can't mark up regions right now and have them identified by AT want people to be able to move from region to region - can't implement as live regions until FireFox 3 comes out
TW: wide-open for widgets we discuss; better if ahead of implementation, with knowledge that ideas need to evolve; talk about widgets before marked up - set paramaters; is there a list of widgets
<scribe> ACTION: Becky will post list of dojo widgets to wai-xtech [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action01]
TW: how do we make list iterative; if not on wiki, what will people do?
becky: on wiki or mail list?
TW: mailing list is fine, but want things documented on wiki
becky: i'll be responsible to transfer from list to wiki
<scribe> ACTION: TW send out email to XTech - next meeting 1 June 2007 - topic will be: tree, slider, TabPanel [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action02]
<scribe> ACTION: EVERYONE: find implementations that haven't already been tracked slash listed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action03]
<scribe> ACTION: Becky will be responsible for transfer of information from XTech to wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action04]
JonG: CITA slider works with JAWS with virtual PC cursor off -- updates values correctly
TW: how do we resolve keystrokes used by AT and those reserved for widgets;
JonG: issue with ARIA things; most screen readers have web navigation mode, currently have to go out of web navigation mode, which is a kludge; needs implementation -- user doesn't want to have to learn yet another mode
becky: already have to do that for forms
Bruce: bring this to attention of AT vendors
<davidb> (that was me)
TW: definitely; Glen Gordon (Freedom Scientific)
<davidb> no problem :)
TW: raise at meetings; users have to use bypass key on JAWS and Window-Eyes have to teach user
GJR: most screen reader users know about passthrough keys
JonG: want to keep learning curve to a minimum
TW: ease of use and communicating to end user; when get into ARIA or dynamic widgets but how can you communicate to user?
becky: trying to stay away from keyboard shortcuts; for dojo have to document for widgets, up to dev to give info to user
web based media player -- same functionality expected from similar apps; how do we make web apps less and less than navigating a web document, and more like interaction with software
becky: in scripting have timing
... have to write all keyboard handlers in scripting
GJR: general keyboard gestures and behavior - let user set modifier
TW: any other issues?
next meeting: discussion of tree, slider, and TabPanel (20 minutes each); use same call in number and passcode for next meeting;
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