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<ChrisW> topic #rif 15 May RIF Telecon, Agenda: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
<ChrisW> rsagent, make logs public
<Harold> zakim [NRCC] is me
<csma> John, would you scribe today?
<ChrisW> scribe: John Hall
<ChrisW> scribenick: johnhall
next meeting 22 May
no agenda amendments
may 8 minutes approved
f2f6 - all complete survey
sandro: 6 people for dinner but not meeting
<sandro> (I believe those dinner-but-not-meeting people to be erroneous)
josb: f2f all according to
... let me know if wiki needs updating
csma: book hotels asap
... f2f7 in New York, IBM september?
... other offers?
... issue with academics - meeting September -first or second half?
<josb> I have no constraints in Sep
csma: preference from Europeans?
<IgorMozetic> no constraints here
<LeoraMorgenstern> This is only my individual constraint, but the High Holy Days fall in September ...
<LeoraMorgenstern> Starting September 13
paula: Summer school in early Sept, several RIF members involved
<LeoraMorgenstern> Which doesn't make a difference if it's in Europe, since I wouldn't go.
paula: alos event in Austria
<LeoraMorgenstern> But if it would be at IBM in New York, it would be a pity if I couldn't make it.
csma: preference for secong half sept?
<ChrisW> ACTION: Chris to send email requesting offers to host f2f7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-286 - Send email requesting offers to host f2f7 [on Chris Menzel - due 2007-05-22].
<scribe> ACTION: ChrisW to email to sound out [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ChrisW
csam: 2 weeks to respond
SBVR - nothing new
<ChrisW> action-285: continued
csma: no actions
sorry, have lost sound
<ChrisW> action-284: complete
<ChrisW> do you want to try dialing in again, John?
<ChrisW> action-283: complete
csma: action 283complete
<ChrisW> action-282: continued
csma: action 282 open
... 280, 281 continued
... 276 done
... Dave R did it, no need to recruit someone
lost sound again
zakim P14is me
<sandro> Chris: We said last week that if anyone wanted reflection in the Core, they'd have to argue for it before today.
zakim ??p14 is me
chrisw: close issue on reflection
<sandro> Chris: We didn't resolve preciseley what "reflection" mean. But since no one is proposing a reflection design, I think we should not have it in core.
<sandro> Chris: reflection could even include metadata.
<sandro> csma: That's a property of a rule language, not of RIF
chrisw: if allow to write rules about rules, would be a kind of reflection
csma: not a property of RIF
... extension may allow
<sandro> Chris: Well, if RIF Core allowed you to say something like "all rules written by Chris are false", that's a kind of reflection.
<LeoraMorgenstern> There is reflection that is okay, and reflection that is pathological.
<Harold> Sandro/Chris, I agree we may have a "reflection" dialect, but not in the core.
<LeoraMorgenstern> Chris, your example, of course ,is the Liar's paradox, and is pathological.
<LeoraMorgenstern> But there is a significant amount of reflection that is not problematic.
<LeoraMorgenstern> Though, I would agree with Christian that we can probably live without it.
<sandro> PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") (resolving issue-31)
<LeoraMorgenstern> Considering how much else we're living without, and how potentially problematic reflection can be.
<sandro> csma: we may introduce reflection later
sorry , sound is very fuzzy
<sandro> PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") as on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31 (resolving issue-31)
maybe someone else could scribe?
<sandro> josb: What if extensions don't want overlapping sorts? Doesn't that mean "extensions" will have to actually be "restrictions"?
<sandro> Chris: Well, but in talking about translations, since you can translate in any direction, that doesn't manifest.
<Harold> Jos, I think 'extension' in a dialect can often mean adding extra constraints, hence 'restricton' (another example: a "recursion prohibition constraint" in a dialect).
<sandro> sandro: we could ask the editor to highlight this issue, but I don't think that's necessary.
is somedody else scribing?
<ChrisW> scribenick: IgorMozetic
<csma> scribe: igormozetic
<ChrisW> Scribe: Igor Mozetic
<Harold> Jos, maybe introducing a disjointness constraint in a dialect later is related to using http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-guide-20040210/#DisjointClasses
DaveR: Re Issue31 is wondering if he was supposed to provide some wrtiteup
<sandro> Dave: What clinched the discussion last week was Michael Kifer saying there was a translation from OS to DS, given in HiLOG paper
<sandro> Jos: That paper said there *are* cases where you can't do the translation, and these cases are expressible in RIF Core.
<sandro> Chris: These are the cases where you say a predicate is = to an individual?
<sandro> Jos: Yes, non-safe quantification with equality.
<sandro> Jos: This forces all predicates to be interpretted in the same way and leads to this kind of problems.
<sandro> Dave: I think we covered this in e-mail -- only allowing safe rules
<sandro> Jos: I didn't think we were considering such a restriction.
<sandro> Chris: It sounds like we're not really ready to close this.
Chris: Jos to talk to Michael and decide who will summarize the discussion
<sandro> ACTION: Jos to talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<rifbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos
<rifbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij, jderoo)
<sandro> ACTION: jdebruij to talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html#action04]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-287 - Talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2007-05-22].
csma: some objections against using RDF syntax for metadata
<sandro> csma: agreement last week to use rdf for metadata -- objection from some folks based on not wanting to implement rdf/xml -- dave said it could be restricted rdf
<sandro> sandro: I said rdf/xml is not the same as rdf --- the plan is to use RDF -- it's not about the RDF/XML syntax.
<sandro> csma: and Gary said he wanted all the elements to be constants, and not terms.
gary: other RDF issues might be problematic: bnodes...
DaveR: one wants to annotate structured values
<sandro> DaveReynolds: sometimes you want to annotate a structured value -- b-nodes are a nice way to do that, without having to mint a URI.
<ChrisW> pointer to use case?
<sandro> DaveReynolds: you could probably restrict those to tree-structure, in which case you could have an XML syntax with no explicit nodes.
<DaveReynolds> use case: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Data_Sets
Gary: sounds acceptable to me
<sandro> csma: would a dialect have a specific set of metadata?
sandro: we agreed on open metadata
<sandro> Sandro: I can't imagine anyone would say we should exaustively list all possible metadata properties.
csma: should we have a restricted list of metadata?
<sandro> csma: should have a list of metadata properties that are "must-understand"?
<sandro> csma: like "every rule must have a name"
<PaulVincent> Metadata = properties about rules not necessary for rule processing, but may assist in rule management, documentation, further transformations etc (IMHO)
sandro: distinction between metadata and abstract syntax is unclear
<sandro> Sandro: I can't tell the difference between metadata and other parts of the rules.
<sandro> csma: I think it's non-semantic stuff.
sandro: metadata is very tightly connected with the extansibility
<sandro> Sandro: I don't think it makes sense to try to draw a line about which features are "metadata" and which are not.
sandro: all the parts of the
rulesets are named by URIs
... this was a result of the Georgia F2F
except for local names
<sandro> "RIF will use URIs (IRIs) in the style of RDF and OWL, using them to identify at least: globally named predicates, functions, datatypes, constants (OWL individuals, not literal values), rules, and rulesets."
<sandro> -- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F4
sandro: maybe we can use RIF itself for metadata formalism
csma: collect emails (Gary, DaveR) regarding metadata
<sandro> requirements for metadata --- rdf data model (some subset of it, at a least)
<sandro> requirements for metadata -- extensibility of properties
sandro: we didn't decide on the syntax, just the metadata model (RDF)
csma: sandro to write a proposed resolution regarding metadata and send it via email
<sandro> Sandro: is there a difference between using RDF and using RIF ?
DaveR: difference between RIF syntax and RDF datamodel
<sandro> Dave: you could use the triples bit of RIF.
<sandro> csma: something like: RIF metadata will follow the RDF data model and use a RIF-specific syntax.
csma: use RDF detamodel and RIF syntax
<sandro> PROPOSED: RIF Metadata will follow the RDF data model, but not necessarily the RDF/XML syntax
igor: why restrict to RDF datamodel?
<sandro> igor: Why the restriction to binary triples?
<sandro> igor: why not allow n-ary, etc, as in RIF facts in general.
<sandro> Gary: I might be able to live with b-nodes, for things like modification history, or other structured data.
<johnhall> I'm giving up for today - bye
<sandro> igor: I can live with triples-only, but it seems like it would be more natural to allow full RIF facts.
<sandro> igor: such as for structures (where one might use b-nodes)
<sandro> csma: are there many languages that use metadata beyond triples?
sandro: metadata might want to use terms
<sandro> Sandro: I think there may be things that some people might call metadata, for which we'll want to use terms.
<sandro> Sandro: ... therefor I'm not ready to agree to the rdf-data-model-only for RIF metadata.
csma: do we need metadata to add to lower-level entities?
Gary: started his XML schema from
... nothing in the schema for Xpath and Xquery
... just for builtins
sandro: builtins should show up
in abstract RIF syntax
... we should track builtins
<sandro> heh - right -- track.
<DaveReynolds> At F2F5 we did talk about a list of core builtins as being part of the Arch document
sandro: SWRL is a good starting place for builtins
<ChrisW> pointer to "SWRL list"?
<Harold> SWRL Builtins: http://www.w3.org/Submission/SWRL/#8
<DaveReynolds> +1 to Gary, should start with the XPATH/XQUERY functions and operators, as also used in SPARQL
csma: should start a wiki page for builtins
<ChrisW> Xpath/Xquery functions: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/
<sandro> Sandro: I think arch should have a section saying how you import for X/X F&O, and RIF Core should have a list of which builtins we import into Core. And somewhere we have a list of exceptions.
<Harold> relational-builtin(Res, Arg1, Arg2) corresponds directly to Res = functional-builtin(Arg1, Arg2)
<sandro> ACTION: Christian send out homework about builtins and put it on future agenda. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-288 - Send out homework about builtins and put it on future agenda. [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-22].
sandro: asks people to have a look at his Wiki page
<DaveReynolds> Harold - but the precise semantics of how to do things like type conversions may differ, xpath-functions is pretty specific on all that
<sandro> EVERYONE who has XML experience, please review http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/XML_Syntax and add your comments.
<Harold> Dave, right, lets look into this.
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