RIF Telecon 20 Feb 07 -- 20 Feb 2007

<ChrisW> sandro, if you're there I don't know how to invite the tracker bot

<ChrisW> agendum 5 = UCR

<ChrisW> agendum 6 =

<ChrisW> agendum 6 = RIFRAF

<ChrisW> agendum 7 = AOB

<csma> MoZ, will you be able to scribe, today?

<MoZ> sorry csma, i will only be present by IRC today too

<csma> ok

<MoZ> xsl is very active for the moment

<MoZ> :(

<agiurca> zakim [TU-Cottbus] is agiurca

<ChrisW> need a comma, adrian

I won't be there.

I can

scribenick AxelPolleres

/me Zakim, mute me

did we invite rrsagent?

<ChrisW> action-224 continued

ACTION 224 [CONTINUED]

Admin

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: Approved minutes of Feb 13 telecon

csma: minutes from last time approved.

F2F

csma: no agenda amendments.
... action review.

ACTION 229 [DONE]

allen: detailed venue information now available on the wiki.

<rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/

allen: please all register! if you haven't yet reigstered for F2F, mail allen!

/me Zakim, mute me

Liasson

<PaulVincent> PRR: no news

Paul: no news from PRR

(who is speaking?)

said: reports on XBRL.

<johnhall> no change for SBVR

csma: a report from said on XBRL could be interesting in the demo part of f2f.

<PaulVincent> XBRL report: good idea

csma: as an exmple of an industry vocabulary that could be bound to RIF.

said/csma will resolve this offline.

technical design

<ChrisW> ACTION: Christian to organize XBRL discussion with Said [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/20-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-230 - Organize XBRL discussion with Said [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-02-27].

ACTION 225 [DONE]

ACTION 226 [DONE]

csma: review comments to technical design from various people.
... which ones can be easily resolved, which ones require discussion at f2f?
... When will we have a frozen version of Core for the f2f?
... start wih jos' review.

<josb> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0027.html

<Harold> Diff of Positive Conditions since last Tuesday: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Positive_Conditions?action=diff&rev2=82&rev1=30

<Harold> Diff of Horn Rules since last Tuesday: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules?action=diff&rev2=26&rev1=17

csma: more separation between discussion part and spec.

harold: separation now clearer by color codes.

Is the color coding explained in the Document????

csma: introduction to be refined.

harold: done.

csma: connection with the web is not really there yet.

<josb> I agreed with Michael that the connection to the web should probably be in some architecture document

harold: apart from sorts, webizing still to be done.

csma: webizing will be stalled for after WD1.
... any objections?

RESOLUTION: webizing will be stalled for after WD1.

<Harold> The Overview already prominently mentions that more webizing will be done later.

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: webizing the RIF CORE will not be part of first WD

<Harold> Currently: sorts.

<josb> it should be stated, though, that it will be addressed in the next version

csma: discussion items in jos review.
... "1- core syntax: allowing disjunction in the conditions" propose to discuss this in f2f.

jos: this had already been discussed in the WG.

<scribe> ACTION: csma to check whether "1- core syntax: allowing disjunction in the conditions" is already resolved. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/20-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - csma

csma: "2- the document seems to commit to four RIF dialects"

<ChrisW> ACTION: Christian to check whether "1- core syntax: allowing disjunction in the conditions" is already resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/20-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-231 - Check whether \"1- core syntax: allowing disjunction in the conditions\" is already resolved [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-02-27].

csma: seems this needs to be modified/weakened.

<ChrisW> ACTION: harold to modify WD so that there are no committments to specific dialects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/20-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-232 - Modify WD so that there are no committments to specific dialects [on Harold Boley - due 2007-02-27].

csma: "3- core syntax: I am not sure what the merit is of [...] anonymous variable"

harold: marked this green in the document, it will be discussed during F2F.

csma: "4- syntax: [...] URIs more prominent"
... this is another facet of the resolution we had before.

jos: it seems it is already partly sorted out with the _uri sort.

<josb> +1

csma: "5- syntax: [...] semantic web [...]"
... this seems also be part of the webizing discussion.

Dave: seems to be worthwhile discussing at F2F.

csma: we will discuss OWL and RDF compatiblity at f2f.

<Harold> "hello world"^^xsd:string was in a draft before, but for LL(k) parsability was syntactically rewritten as _xsd:string"hello world".

csma: main objective of f2f will be finalizing WD1. Any discussions of further webizing will not be the focus.

Dave: seems some webizing is in for wd1, other no.

csma: anything which we can tidy up for WD1 is ok to be discussed in F2F.

(what is the conclusion here???)

<ChrisW> Clarification of Resolution on Webizing: We will include discussion on "cleaning up" the current WD wrt what it already says about "webizing"

<Harold> Mike, webizing was in a draft before (http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/A.1.1_Basis%3A_Positive_Conditions_over_Bipartitioned_Constants), but was then handled via sorts.

csma: next comment "XML datatypes"

harold: done.

<agiurca> Why xs:anyURI si not there too?

csma: "6- section 1: it is not entirely clear to me what is meant with a "

"fragment" of a dialect. "

jos: not necessarily all comments need to be discussed here.

csma: we want this all agreed before WD1.

<Harold> Maybe "fragment" is relative to a larger language, whereas "dialect" is neutral wrt specializing or generalizing another language, so I would prefer this more broad term.

csma: " "6- section 1: " dialect vs. fragment will be resolved at f2f.

<josb> I agree with Harold's proposal for the terminology

<Harold> Will do as time permits.

csma: fragment will be replaced globally by dialect, not further to be discussed.
... "7- section 1.1: from the introduction it is not really clear which data types"

harold: resolved. 5 datatypes supported.

csma: "8- section 1.1: introduction: reference here to features in future dialects"

harold: resolved.

csma: "9- section 1.1, syntax"

harold: resolved.

csma: "10- section 1.1: the scoping rules"

harold: resolved.

csma: "11- section 1.1: XML syntax"
... done. XML lableled illustrative only

<josb> if it is for illustrative purposes only, then it can be kept there

csma: "12- section 1.1, semantic structures"

<scribe> ...postponed to WD2.

harold: comments 12-15 have been agreed/handled already.
... also all comments until 22 have been resolved.

csma: can you comment on 22 "intended models of rules"?

harold: michael will maybe handle it by friday.

<Harold> Michael?

csma: michael, can "22 intended models of rules" be handled before f2f?
... further (editorial) comments should have been taken into account.

<ChrisW> Michael, are you reading the irc?

harold: some font issues, there may be still inconsistencies, which cannot be resolved in the wiki version, but comments 23-31 are taken into account.

(michael k. joining)

csma: michael, can "22 intended models of rules" be handled before f2f?
... jos said this section should be removed for WD1.

<AllenGinsberg> +1 different color

michael: decision was to put it in different color. will be done for frozen version until friday.

csma: move to comments from allen.

harold: all comments of allen resolved.

chrisw: back to anon vars comment frrom jos?

csma: anon vars will be discussed at f2f.

<sandro> (a little research suggests global-search-replace is very rare in wikis, and absent in moinmoin. Only one wiki on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software has it.)

<sandro> (conceicably wiki-tr could help with that. Hrm.)

csma: back to allen's comments. Suggestion to all to pick up allen's practice for reviews to suggest replacement text when reviewing.
... let's move to mike dean's review.

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0038.html

<Hassan> NB: "to explicate" means "to make explicit" - not "to explain"

csma: most of mike's comments are typographic/english.

harold: have been resolved.

csma: "It seems premature to give examples and a DTD for RIF Horn Rules"

harold: moved to appendix.

<Harold> CamelCase

csma: "RDF would be a more appropriate camelcase analogue than Java"

mike: think that rdf is a more direct analogue than java here.

harold: will be resolved to WD1 frozen version.

csma: "Why not use sort rather than type as the attribute name"

harold: the term "sort" is overloaded.

hassan: so is "type", type is misleading here.

(resolution?)

<AllenGinsberg> You could use "SORTAL"

harold: will be implemented in frozen wd1.

csma: "It seems a bit odd to modify the semantic structures introduced only a few"
... "screens back, as if multisorted RIF was an afterthought."

Michael K: Should we introduce multisorted RIF right away?

csma: I think so.

ChrisW: suggest to keep this for WD2.
... will keep track of this.

csma: "I'm concerned that this section tries to cover too much material, ..."

harold: resolved (?)

(where are you now?)

csma: other comments are on XML syntax and will go to WD2.
... there will be a session on asn06/XML in f2f, but not relevant for WD1.
... my comment on the structure of the document

harold: overview now clarified.

<Harold> Axel, the Condition Language is a common foundation, so is a bit large.

harold: the Condition Language part is a common foundation, so is a bit large, but will be kept like that for WD1.

<Harold> No (more) major structural changes are possible.

csma: next comments from Adrian.

<DaveReynolds> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/att-0063/00-part

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0063.html

csma: the comments are in the attachment of that email
... # A Datatypes section is desirable. This section will explain which datatypes are allowed and describe them.

# A specific Validation section which includes all kind of validation issues i.e. DTD validation, XML Schema validation, MOF validation.

scribe: should be discussed for WD2/

csma: whether or not to include DTD to be discussed at f2f.

adrian: rename section "model" to "abstract syntax""

harold: this is confusing.

csma: again: metamodel vs. abstract syntax to be discussed in f2f2.

adrian/harold: now discuss about striped- syntax, etc.

csma: harold, please make clear the reference for striped-syntax in frozen document. we will then discuss it at f2f.

harold: will color-code the "striped" passage in green.

csma: multiplicity should maybe also discussed. MOF diagram should be discussed as well.
... another comment which came several times: complete names instead of abbreviations for XML tags.
... for reasons of being illustrative.

<Harold> Technical RIF tags should not be identified with natural language meanings.

harold: tags technically shouldn't be the same as natural lang meaning.

csma: discuss that at f2f.

<Harold> Short names remind people of that.

csma: move to phillipe bonnard's comments.

(can someone post the link to phillipe's mail?)

harold: will address his comments by friday.

<Deborah_Nichols> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0025.html

<agiurca> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0025.html

csma: syntax/vocabulary for parts of rules, e.g. ECA rules to be sorted out in f2f.
... comment on slotted syntax is obsolete.
... we have reached the regulatr time and also the end of the reviews.

<AllenGinsberg> +1

<ChrisW> proposed extend meeting by 5 minutse

csma: 5min more for discussing actions for UCR.

<ChrisW> resolved

<AllenGinsberg> done

ACTION 215 [DONE]

<josb> Sorry, I have to go. Bye!

<agiurca> Review on Ferbruary 23

(can you tell the action numbers and whether they are done/continued?)

<Harold> Sandro, if you do a wiki-tr update, could you also fix __underlines__ ?

<ChrisW> ACTION: sandro to check duplication problem in UCR draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/20-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-233 - Check duplication problem in UCR draft [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-02-27].

ACTION 228 [DONE]

csma: encourage all to check the wiki pager from action 228.

<sandro> I'll try, Harold. (I'm out sick, but will try to find some concentration time.)

<scribe> continued. working ont it!

ACTION 227 [CONTINUED]

csma: AOB... no. Good bye!

<agiurca> -agiurca

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 20 Feb 07

20 Feb 2007

Attendees

Contents

Admin

F2F

Liasson

technical design

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output