<ChrisW> zakij, clear agenda

<ChrisW> hey moz, can you scribe today?

<MoZ> ChrisW, not I even won't be able to attend by phone, I fear

<MoZ> I will only be there on IRC

<ChrisW> ok

<MoZ> The problem is even I would do I still will be a first-half-time-scribe

<ChrisW> that's ok

<Harold> Enterprise Architect is another UML tool: http://www.sparxsystems.com/ea.htm

<ChrisW> ack ??

<csma> I will do it

<ChrisW> scribenick: csma

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0013.html

proposed: approve minutes of 13 Feb

RESOLUTION: minutes from 6 Feb approved

Zakum, next agendum

Allen: If you did not fill the questionaire, please do it before next Friday
... extra room booked for BO sessions

<pfps> I'm ready to scribe.

<scribe> scribenick: pfps

Chris: If you think you might come, sign up on the Wiki and provide nationality so that the appropriate paperwork can be done.

<LeoraMorgenstern> Yes, sandro, because I forgot to sign up

Sandro: I'll reopen the questionnaire to support this.

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F5

Chris: 16 have signed up, so expect 20
... agenda is up for meeting
... If we can't approve drafts, then we want to at least try to get concrete actions for editors that will result in a working draft
... Documents will be frozen one week before F2F

<Harold> Is there news about wiki-tr (reading on the plane)?

Chris: Day 2 devoted to UCR draft
... Day 3 devoted to architecture and to complete actions from previous days
... WIKI page has more details, comments wanted
... Hotels still have room, but do often fill

F2F

Allen: Two demos are available.

Harold: What about remote participation?

Allen: Each room has a speakerphone

Chris: Use regular code, if second bridge is needed then one will be set up

Liason

Sandro: Will send out email asking who wants to phone in (and when?)

<csma> ACTION: to Sandro to send email to ask who plans to attend by phone [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to

<PaulVincent> PRR - no news

Chris: Action review
... Harold actions 216 done, 217 done,
... Jos action #? done
... actions 218, 219, 220 done
... action 223 done
... action (Sandro) not done

<csma> s/(sandro)/224/

Harold: draft incorporates all changes from Allen's initial review
... still discussing later review from Allen and other reviews (appendix)
... overview section has initial content
... Mike and Jos are discussing comments

Michael: current document has motivation - where should they go? they might end up quite long

Chris: leave motivation, etc., in for initial draft, later move to another document

<agiurca> There is a consensus about the Section "Multisorted Extension?" Why is this an extension? I propose to drop out this section by moving the content to the Syntax and Semantics sections.

Michael: how to address criticism then?

Harold: comments are against technical sections - mixture of intro and formal stuff
... maybe a reorganization of the section is the best way to go

Chris: how much work to rewrite

Michael/Harold: more than a week, can't just take it out, need to reorganize

Chris: Jos - what is the biggest problem

Jos: mixture of intro/motivation and technical stuff, which degrades readability
... would be better to have informal intro to language with motivation

<csma> I agree with Jos; we should clearly separate what is the spec and what are additional explanations

Jos: separate section/document for technical stuff

<Harold> Jos, later perhaps we'll need a 'walk-through' like the one for OWL? Just not in one week?

Michael: other problems are small, this is the only one that is big

Jos: also question on end point (which documents?) so scope of this document is unclear

Chris: this doc is description of RIF core - it will be the guts of the standard
... some stuff will move to another document, which is not ready yet, they need to exist now, so that this document can be read

Michael: the current situation is problematic for non-experts, there needs to be an introductory section or document

<Harold> Michael, but it's also a good didactic principle to do it "informal-formal-informal-formal-...".

<Harold> Rather than informal-informal-...informal-formal-formal-...-formal.

Michael: A completely formal document will need to point to the motivation

CSMA: not clear what is spec and what is non-spec
... fix by visually indicating spec and non-spec?

Chris: can this be done?

<Allen> I agree with Christian

<agiurca> May be the RIF MOF/UML metamodel is better to be inside of the Positive Conditions section and not in the RIF overview.

Harold: probably, but how to do in WIKI style

Michael: how to do quickly?

<Harold> Christian, special fonts (or boxes) for "informal" and for "formal" would be doable.

CSMA: how about highlighting / italics (just for frozen version) and something better later?

Harold: how about colours?

Sandro: WIKI vs TR - have editors pick something for WIKI, I can map into TR

<Harold> E.g. in the help system: ||<#FF8080> red ||<#80FF80> green ||<#8080FF> blue ||

<agiurca> there is a <strong> tag which is not closed

Michael: Need some fixes for WIKI-TR - can't use entities

<Harold> Which colour do we use for "formal"? red?

Sandro: will try to fix (somehow)

Michael: OK

Chris: temporary solution is to distinguish via colour

<Harold> Or, following Christian, mark "informal" by green?

CSMA: what goes into the overview? Why is the metamodel not in the spec?

<agiurca> From the metamodel cannot be obtained the actual BNF. What is the mapping which was used?

Harold: problem with mixing motivation with metamodel

CSMA: XML part should be separated, later

Harold: may not need strict separation, just mark

<agiurca> XML syntax can be generated fro the MOF abstract syntax

Harold: perhaps physically separate, and have links

CSMA: for this WD just mark, discuss end state later

Chris: move where?

<csma> I removed the remark about moving XML into a different section

Harold: need two diagrams

<csma> I keep the remark about moving the meta-model along with the corresponding BNF

<csma> +1

Chris: do minimal change

<agiurca> The mapping from the MOF abstract syntax to BNF must be described.

Who is recording actions?

<csma> Ok

<csma> Action to Harold to move the MOF diagram to the relevant syntax subsection

Harold: problems with concurrent editing in WIKI

<csma> ACTION: Harold to move the MOF diagrams to the relevant syntax subsections [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-225 - Move the MOF diagrams to the relevant syntax subsections [on Harold Boley - due 2007-02-20].

Sandro: email WIKI bugs to sysreq

<sandro> sysreq@w3.org

<sandro> to report the wiki being down or seriously malfunctioning.

Chris: how to fix problem with WIKI-TR?
... Sandro - run WIKI-TR and see if there are real problems

Harold: Can WIKI-TR handle appendices?

<csma> Can we move that discussion off line?

Sandro: can handle by using single numbering

Adrian: need to explain mapping from BNF to abstract syntax

Harold: something needs to be done

Adrian: why do we need new syntax?
... what about sorts? are they core or not?

Michael: in core

<Harold> "Multisorted extension" is a 'Core-internal' extension.

Adrian: then don't call this multi-sorted extensions
... what is status of "type"

Harold: missing - needs to be added

Chris: put this into an email

<csma> Harold, do you want a action to add some text to explain the mapping between BNF and MOF diagram?

<Harold> Adrian, attributes in BNF syntax are not wide-spread, but we could invent something.

<Harold> Christian, yes.

Chris: other comments

Technical Design

Chris: next item - UCR

Allen: no recent changes - reviews have been assigned

<csma> ACTION: harold to add some text in the syntax subsections to explain the mapping between BNF and MOF diagrams [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-226 - Add some text in the syntax subsections to explain the mapping between BNF and MOF diagrams [on Harold Boley - due 2007-02-20].

Chris: what needs to be done for final version - there are outstanding issues

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/open

Chris: e.g. RIF must cover OWL
... F2F should cover all outstanding issues with UCR
... each open UCR issue should have a plan

Alllen: OK, I'll look at them

Chris: some of them are old - and should have already been closed
... we want a success - need to think about extensions as well
... this WILL come up at the F2F - be prepared
... action conclusion and summary - 215 - open

Allen: deferred to final version, work on phase 2 first

<csma> I do

Chris: opinions either way?

<csma> we should have a conclusion in the next WD

CSMA: we should have conclusion and summary now

Chris: OK, Allen can you do that

Allen: I'll try

<PaulaP> m7 zakim, unmute me

Paula: how should Phase 2 requirements be gathered?

Chris: good question - Allen?

Allen: no opinion

Chris: start new WIKI page - as before

Paula: I will help if needed

<ChrisW> action paula to start phase 2 wiki page

Chris: ACTION Paula set up new WIKI page

<csma> ACTION: PaulaP to start a new wiki page for phase 2 reqs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PaulaP

<ChrisW> ACTION: paula to start phase 2 wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-rif-minutes.html#action05]

Chris: <sarcasm deleted>

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - paula

Chris: next item - RIFRAF

UCR

Axel: problems with aligning different stuff with UML diagrams
... would like to go higher-level
... no feedback so far

Chris: Leora will be at F2F, but not other RIFRAFers
... what to discuss at meeting?

Axel: I will try to attend by phone.

Chris: Metamodel discussion is scheduled, RIFRAF also, these are the important ones
... how much time to allot?

Axel: depends on other people!

Chris: will put email on list of to-be-read

Axel: should I prepare slides?

Chris: YES!!!!!!!!!!!

Axel: will produce something by Monday

<ChrisW> ACTION: axel to send slides on proposed rifraf ontology [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-227 - Send slides on proposed rifraf ontology [on Axel Polleres - due 2007-02-20].

RIFRAF

Chris: other business - going once, going twice, gone

<PaulaP> +1

<csma> +1

<Allen> bye

<PaulaP> bye

<johnhall> Bye

Chris: DONE

<agiurca> -agiurca

<ChrisW> oops

<ChrisW> Scribe: Peter Patel-Schneider

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127  of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/13/6/
FAILED: s/(sandro)/224/
WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Peter\ Patel\-Schneider> ...
Found ScribeNick: csma
Found ScribeNick: pfps
Found Scribe: Peter Patel-Schneider
ScribeNicks: csma, pfps
Default Present: +39.022.399.aaaa, csma, Harold, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, josb, PaulaP, agiurca, Allen_Ginsberg, Sandro, StellaMitchell, DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, Leora_Morgenstern, pfps, PaulVincent, Michael_Kifer, Gary_Hallmark, johnhall, AxelPolleres
Present: +39.022.399.aaaa csma Harold ChrisW IgorMozetic josb PaulaP agiurca Allen_Ginsberg Sandro StellaMitchell DavidHirtle Dave_Reynolds Leora_Morgenstern pfps PaulVincent Michael_Kifer Gary_Hallmark johnhall AxelPolleres
Regrets: FrançoisBry DeborahNichols MarkusKrötzsch MohamedZergaoui (IRC only) IgorMozetic
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0026.html
Got date from IRC log name: 13 Feb 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: axel harold paula paulap sandro to