See also: IRC log
<scribe> SCRIBE: alewis
minutes approved 28 September 2006 teleconference
(quickly reviewed)
Jonathan: no longer affiliated
with Microsoft, now with WSO2, will continue on working group,
as co-chair and WSO2 representative
... Asir continues to represent Microsoft (currently on
paternity leave)
(chaffer targeting Jonathan and Asir and Arthur)
<Jonathan> Jonathan's new email address: jonathan@wso2.com
Interop event, November 14-18
scribe: Canon to host.
... location of interop event is Rennes, France
... more administrivia: should we review the change from
x-www-url-encoded to www-url-encoded, approaching submission in
IETF.
Jonathan: do we need to review this, or make specification changes?
little interest or concern expressed.
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: features and
properties awaiting submission from Youenn on MTOM (CR62).
Discussion awaits fulfillment of action item.
... is there anything other than Youenn's action that we're
waiting for to make the decision on Features and
Properties?
Philippe: SOAP modules may also be linked to removal of features and properties, since based on that.
Jonathan: Glen modified that
statement, to say that the functionality is less than ideal,
but still usable.
... Arthur is suggesting that we need to make the Features and
Properties decision next week, when we've seen Youenn's
proposal.
Jonathan: is the purpose of component designators furthered by having canonical designators?
Jacek: yes, these can be useful to RDF and web arch generally, but ought to be "SHOULD" rather than "MUST".
Jonathan: someone needs to write
up the canonical form of XPointer URIs for component
designators
... might be restricted to namespaces and such.
... canonical XPointer format might have utility outside of
this group.
... fragment identifiers are too restrictive; component
designators should be more sharply targeted. Should be able to
use a component designator as a fragment identifier, but not
necessarily the other way around.
Jacek: anyone using fragment identifiers knows how to use them, as a rule.
Arthur: but in RDF, these things need to be opaque, comparable URIs
Jacek: yes, but it's unlikely
that two different sources will generate fragment identifiers
from the same WSDL and then need to compare them.
... it would be nice to have canonical designators, but is not
critical.
Jonathan: add a paragraph to spec. "For easy lexical comparison of fragment identifiers ..." (he needs to put the rest of this in an email, probably)
discussion of how to generate namespace prefixes, as applied to the problem of canonicalization.
Arthur: does this also require that the base URI be canonicalized?
<Jonathan> - only 0 or more xmlns() and exactly 1 wsdl.*() pointer parts may appear
Jonathan: we start from a target URI, which is lexically defined.
<Jonathan> - prefixes must be named ns1, ns2
<Jonathan> - no whitespace appears in the XPointer
<Jonathan> - no duplicate URIs in xmlns()
Arthur: true for WSDL, but we also have schema URIs.
Jonathan, Jacek: same thing.
<Jonathan> - multiple xmlns() parts appear in the same order as in the wsdl.* part
Arthur: if namespace recurs, reuse prefix.
Jonathan: are these rules sufficient for the case of an extension?
Arthur: yes, the frag id is a string, so has an inherent left-to-right order. name them in order of occurrence.
<Jonathan> "For ease of comparison, Component Designators SHOULD conform to the following canonicalization rules."
<scribe> ACTION: Arthur to revise appendix to include this text. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01]
Arthur: WS-Policy will also use these fragment ids.
RESOLUTION: CR80 closed with the addition of a statement recommending canonical construction of URLs representing fragment ids.
<Jonathan> note that the use of must within SHOULD is not very nice
Arthur: maybe also revise the examples in the specification using the canonical form?
Jonathan: one more issue on list,
from 2004, note from TAG on safety extension. TAG wants to
track usage through deployment.
... suggest that at some point he can report implementation to
the TAG.
... Woden and Canon currently implement.
Arthur: can WSDL claim that something is safe when it isn't?
Jacek: planning to use this information in research; although no implementation, it's very useful in its present form.
Tom: reads this as looking for clarification on what "safe" means.
Arthur: maybe we need to say that "read-only" is not enough, it needs to have no side effects.
Jonathan: but we don't want to
define it.
... point to canonical definition.
Tom: can't we just add a couple sentences?
Jonathan: no, they want something in the test suite.
Tom: "we called launchNuclearWeapons twice, and it wasn't safe even though it was marked that way!"
question: are there examples in the primer? Is this the best place to do it?
Arthur: there's discussion in the primer, maybe Jonathan should point the TAG at the primer on interface operation.
Jonathan: yes, this text looks pretty good. Reluctant to do more, except eventually ping the TAG again to say "still there, seems to be working, no internet-scale deployment at this time, but no reason to expect misuse"
Arthur: is it generally an error
if an operation is bound to HTTP DELETE and it's marked as
safe?
... can we check that in validation?
Philippe: no.
Arthur: sure we can, if we know the binding.
Philippe: only GET is safe.
Jacek: what is guaranteed to be *unsafe*?
Amy: is there an assertion about usage of HTTP methods in the WSDL HTTP binding?
Joanathan, Arthur: well, we should be able to work it out from the combination of the HTTP spec and the definition of safety.
Arthur: yes, but we could put the assertion in, in order to have a test case that clearly violates an assertion (and is therefore invalid).
<pauld> DELETE is unsafe
discussion of whether a WSDL can be called invalid if it does not violate a direct assertion. can validity be based on implicit violation of the safety attribute?
discussion of which methods are guaranteed unsafe.
paul says delete is; jonathan suggests not (if there's a nonexistent resource, for instance).
Arthur: and there is no guarantee that an application will implement the HTTP verbs properly.
Jacek, Arthur: we can point them to the primer, and point out that it's not in the test suite.
Jonathan: the issue will be
resolved via a report to the TAG, the longer we wait, the more
implementation experience we can report on.
... substantially completed with work. we will have a call next
week to talk about features and properties.
<scribe> NEW ISSUE: per email from Ramkumar Menon, question of fault binding raised in discussion of synchronous versus asynchronous.
Jonathan: will add issue 81, and close it immediately by requiring fault binding.
Jacek: faults outside operations don't need to have bindings.
<pauld> notes DELETE on a non-existent resource should return 404, not 200, 202, 204 and invalid implementations sounds bogus
Jacek: uncomfortable with this
MUST.
... maybe say it in the qualified version?
Jonathan: maybe leave issue open for this week?
<scribe> ACTION: Jacek to send response email noting his concern. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02]
Arthur: in practice, you won't
have a problem until you use a fault.
... if something goes wrong, and you need to send a fault, you
need to know how to bind it.
... so there can be unused faults.
Jacek: but what about faults that are defined, but not referenced from any operation?
Jonathan: let's look at it; it doesn't sound controversial, just needs a little more thought.
<Jonathan> ACTION: Jonathan to add issue 81 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03]
Arthur: yeah, probably happened when we pulled fault out of operation.
Meeting closes.
<Arthur> assertion coverage report: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/test-suite/assertions-report.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
implementors' report.
226 assertions, only 54 covered by test cases.
Arthur: also invites people to contribute to Woden.
<Arthur> Woden project needs help: http://incubator.apache.org/woden/
<JacekK> the minutes are public, is that a problem?
bye, gang.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Phillippe/Philippe/ Succeeded: s/0 to two/0 or more/ Succeeded: s/multipe/multiple/ Found Scribe: alewis Inferring ScribeNick: alewis WARNING: Replacing list of attendees. Old list: TonyR Plh Gilbert_Pilz Tom_Jordahl Jonathan_Marsh Roberto Peter_Zehler Vivek_Pandey Arthur_Ryman Anish_Karmarkar Allen_Brookes Charlton_Barreto Amelia_Lewis Jean-Jacques JacekK Allen New list: TonyR Plh Gilbert_Pilz Tom_Jordahl Jonathan_Marsh Roberto Peter_Zehler Vivek_Pandey Arthur_Ryman Anish_Karmarkar Default Present: TonyR, Plh, Gilbert_Pilz, Tom_Jordahl, Jonathan_Marsh, Roberto, Peter_Zehler, Vivek_Pandey, Arthur_Ryman, Anish_Karmarkar Present: TonyR Plh Gilbert_Pilz Tom_Jordahl Jonathan_Marsh Roberto Peter_Zehler Vivek_Pandey Arthur_Ryman Anish_Karmarkar Regrets: PaulD Youenn Got date from IRC log name: 5 Oct 2006 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html People with action items: arthur jacek jonathan[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]