See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Kazuyuki
<scribe> ScribeNick: Kazuyuki
<olivier> should the record be public?
shall i scribe for karl?
for morning session?
<olivier> I will do it
<olivier> Dave Raggett starts introduction session
<olivier> going round the room for self introductions
<olivier> thanks, kazuyuki
<olivier> ScribeNick: olivier
<scribe> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/ubiwebws-agenda.html
chair introduces the workshop, organization
does anyone have a link to Dave's slides? can't see the URI from back of room
Dave: Introducing sessions
<chaals-> [I guess I should have noted that I am also proposed (by the group) co-chair for WebAPI group and working in a couple of other areas in W3C]
Dave: Introducung Don Retallack, Boeing
Position Paper for Don Retallack, Boeing: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/Boeing.txt
tidbits from the talk (feel free to add to the log)
Don R: less concerned about people stealing our data than we are about people changing it (on Security)
<chaals> Don R: It is important to be able to rely on rendering in scenarios like factory floor use, telemedicine
scribe: we need things to talk to things, not people to things, things to talk to people
<chaals> Don R: useful to have a mechanic crawling around the inside of an aeroplane have access where they are to a drawing, not climb down to the floor, look at it, and climb back up, taking maybe 15 minutes or so.
<chaals> Don R: Need to be able to take a long-term view of this. The life span of an aircraft from conception to retirement from use is generally more than 50 years
Don R: all of our information (pay check, personal info) is now web based - huge investment
Don R: taking questions
Dave R: how are seemingly opposed goals of resilience against drop out and thin client satisfied?
Don R: we're working on such systems to have clients communicate even in loss of connection. p2p networks
Kazuyuki Ashimura, W3C: voice browser working group considered voice print for identification
scribe: you may be interested in such technology for security
Don R: we had contracts with US Gov for such technologies, actually
scribe: and much more
... voice input increasingly important
... time saving, in factories for instance, instead of badging
<chaals> "People in factorys like to input information with a wrench" (Actually, this is a serious use case - also applies to people working in dangerous environments with clumsy protective equipment, etc)
Dave R: what makes the Web more attractive than other frameworks?
Don R: it's for everybody
scribe: simplicity and
universality of using the web
... and the sophistication of the protocols
... make it more interesting
Shinichi Matsui, Panasonic, takes the floor
Panasonic position paper: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/panasonic-paper.html
use case oriented presentation
S. Matsui: presenting 2 business visions
central concept: "ubiquitous" and "global environment" from the home
scribe: expecting ubiquitous
network society by 2010
... appliances digitized and networked (by 2010?)
... we are now in the end of phase of broadcasting dogitization, digitization of mobile
... "3D value chain"
... SD card used on multiple devices
... second D is "DVD", third is "DTV"
... evolved from HD (full high definition), CD (content distrib), UD (universal design)
... will talk about content distribution a little more
... importance of secure 3D platform
... alliance between appliance builder and content distributors
<chaals> [/me thinks "the ideal user interface is widely implemented for fridges"...]
scribe: House-wide broadband - no
extra wiring should be needed
... use e.g power cabling, or coax, or wireless
... 1 button connection, 1 button diagnosis
... introducing HDPLC High Speed Power Line Communication
... (for High Definition pictures and Internet)
... Ubiquitous Home Appliances - disassemble and combine functions through digitization
S.Matsui: future is "organic combination by
networking" of digital home appliances functions
... input, processing and output by network of appliances
... -> Ubiquitous Home Appliances
... Picture Monitoring "every/anywhere door phone"
<chaals> [So I could let people into my house if I am in another country, but could see and be sure it was them. That's actually a really useful thing for a group of people I know]
S.Matsui: skips lifestyle 2015 slides
... Requirements: secure and safe, extensible, works with some (any?) device, open and RF based
J Hjelm: [missed q]
<chaals> Johan Hjelm: What do you think is a reasonable timeframe to expect a ubiquitous web?
S.Matsui: expecting ubi society 2010
... hope by 2008 or 9
Nobuo Saito, Keio U taking the floor
PUCC: name of consortium on p2p and ubi comp
N.Saito: Role of universities: neutral,
innovative - can act for consolidation among
... PUCC technologies: p2p network, mobile integration, overlay network protocols, app/service integration
... shows architecture of PUCC
... (available in paper http://www.w3.org/2006/02/saito-paper.pdf )
... PUCC bridging between p2p home network and web/application
... listing members
... Web has an important integrating role to play
Q: on PUCC protocol
scribe: why define a new protocol
instead of using web services?
... SOAP application protocol
A: SOAP is a t higher level
scribe: it may work, but we are
... we will start experimenting from this summer, try existing protocols
Q: you are proposing an overlay to interact with p2p network
scribe: are you proposing new
... to deal with resolving p2p resources ?
[please input names of commenters, if possible]
A: we're looking into solutions
Commenter 1 was Kapil Sachdeva, Axalto
Commenter 2 was F. Reynolds, Nokia
Tahar Cherif, Sharp - Toward Ubiquitous Web
scribe: presenting SHARP's view
on Ubi web, quite close to what S.Matsui of Matsushita
... still see a huge challenge for accessibility
... defining access terminals
Sharp Position Paper: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/sharp-paper.pdf
T. Cherif: Shared terminals (ST), Personal Terminals (PT)
scribe: Use case 1: Input
... text input handicap, lack of secrecy for password input
Use Case 2: Personal Information management
scribe: Toward ubiweb: raising
importance of ST
... personal mobile terminals
... (mobile phones, pdas)
... comparing ST and PMT
... collaborative web access
... linkage of ST and PMTs - securely
... linkage of shared and personal page
... and synchronization
... proposed solutions
... solution 1 input interface - shared page is updated based on the interaction with personal page
... effective text input, web navigation by PMT
solution 2 personal information management: storage in pnt, update in ST according to provided info. risk of leak is very low
F. Reynolds: [missed q]
(discussion on sharing in parallel)
Don R: shows badge with chip including a lot of information (passwords included)
scribe: would like to be able to use this and get personal environment in shared kiosk
T.C: agree with approach
D.R: badge has a lot of technologies: bar
code, magnetic stripe, chip
... how do we get all these systems to work together
Dave R: discussion session later on security
Charles MCN: personalized setup with a card exist, in libraries for instance
scribe: what is needed is
standardization and harmonization
... key point identified in this presentation is what kind of info do you want to give
... give to whom, when, and where do you keep it?s example of google offering to host all your info
J. Hjelm: seems you are thinking of web as data display readable by humans
scribe: but it's much more than
... all the data and information, how does that fit into your ideas
T.C: we have only identified some areas, are
willing to participate. Agreed that this presentation focuses
on display and usage by humans
... this is our approach for this new work
J.H: how would you see the sharing/split in
the phone world?
... how do you envision avoiding leaking of personal information into shared environment
T.C: these are questions that the new work should answer
Kapil Sachdeva: wanted to answer Don's remark - as smartcard maker. will be the focus of my presentation
F.R: usability concern with having both ST and PMT - how does the user share attention between the two
T.C: depends on culture/generation. think of nintendo DS, multiple screen and multimodal input
[scribe reminds speakers that this is an international audience. speak slowly and in the microphone]
<Kazuyuki> I agree with you ;-)
Franklin Reynolds, Nokia - http://www.w3.org/2006/02/reynolds-paper.pdf
F.R: ubiquitous web, upnpn and smart
... smart home: environment saturated with computing and networking
... smart spaces
... types of homes (many types - complicate connectivity and security)
... upnp forum (universal plug and play)
... upnp technology ipv4, xml, soap, ssdp, gena, presentation service device and service profile
... digital living metwork alliance (DLNA) consortium
... vision of a wired and wireless network of computers and consumer electronics
... CE companies are driving - they have different business models than communication or PC companies
... hate interdependence on other brands
... deployed for a long time - backward compat important
F.R: they also need to sell replacement
... future proofing is important
... important: consumers are not trained
F.R: they make bad network/security
... hard to get everything to actually work - it has to work by itself
... consumer will buy dumb over smart if dumb more likely to "work"
... security - who owns, is responsible for all the devices? user change, too, people come and go
... data integrity compromission could mean lives in danger
... Model Mis-Match
... often there is no browser - machine to machine
... not all interactions are request-response
... some communication is one to many
... real world not easily modeled as decentralised data store of pages
... not stateless
... may have side effects, may move
... service discovery should be ubiquitous
... propose to integrate service discovery with URIs
... HTTP and SOAP
... slow and complicated, but works in most cases
... problem is in low and high end of performance requirements
... User Interface... web browsers not the best UI for control
... e.g page-at-a-time not natural for all devices
Q1: have you tried multipass DNS?
A: yes, but not an IETF spec
scribe: but still are problems
when moving devices from one network to another
... adding key is part of the solution
Kapil Sachdeva: [acromyms overload, sorry, missed that]
WS-discovery for service discovery
Tahar Cherif: p2p paradigm - will it be used mostly for service discovery?
A: if I can relax what peer to peer means, then think it should be used everywhere
break out session: Security || Use Case
Charles McCathieNeville summarises discussion of Security subgroup
(minutes to come)
<chaals> CMN: (what I didn't say...) We looked at a couple of problems and use cases. Making things that are useful in factories and in home fridges is tricky - what works for securing an aeroplane might be unreasonable for securing a milk carton.
<chaals> ... how do you know that the printer you see in the airport is reliable enough to print a sensitive document? Can you prove it promised something then didn't do it - so you can go to court afterwards? Can you technically ensure that this is the printer? Can you find some information that you trust that says the printer is trusted by someone?
<Kazuyuki> welcome ;-)
<Kazuyuki> ScribeNick: Kazuyuki
- Kapil Sachdeva: Device coordination with Web applications
<Kazuyuki_> wonders why sometimes I'm dropped...
<Kazuyuki_> Kapil: explains Smard card and its applications
<Kazuyuki_> ... it includes client authentication based on two way SSL
<Kazuyuki_> ... in addition one time passwords
scribe: explains: Web
applications and Smart cards
... architecture of Smart card security for web applications
... mentions: Issues
... browser extension problem
... browser setting, device dependency, etc.
... explains: Network Addressable Devices
Kapil: Position: standardization of web API
<karl> s/Member has/W3C Members have/
Franklin: how is the power of smart card?
A: additional reader using USB (e-card technology)
Charles: The WebAPI group is looking at APIs primarily for documents and applications, although they are looking to some extent at devices. But they are not handling the more complex question of security of device connections at the moment, and so browsers probably will not open up authentication and security via connected devices given the current web security
Michelle: What if somebody steal my smart card?
A: smart card is protected by your own PIN
Melinda Grant: The Ubiquitous Web...
thanks so much, charles
Gerrie: explains: Problem of
... Usecases: Photo Archiving, Photo Shareing, Enterprise Print
... user actions and standard technology required
... HP's primary solution interests
HP's position: various standards must be integrated seamlessly
Johan: how to integrate?
A: don't jump to answers. people must @@@
... How can web server and browser access to the printer for example in Kinko's. using URL?
A: we need protocol to support server and client connection
Dave: (missed the Q)
A: scalable protocols for various devices and environments are required
Don Wright: The Ubiquity of Print
DonW: Today's Printing and the
... Ubiquitous Web for Print
... What functionality is needed?
... Printing Device Model?
... Tools available: XHTML-Print, CSS Profile for Print, PWG's work, UPNP, etc.
... How to discover Printers?: range, distinction, sub-net, geographic information
... How to delively job?: protocols (IPP, SOAP, HTTP PUT, others?), drivers, intermidiate
... Capabilities of Devices: PWG?, protocol/format
... Security issues: how to determine security needs?, What security is needed for printers?
... Path Forward: use cases and needs for devices
Charles: In Kinko's use case, how can we get the printer that couldn't print the job to say "well, there is another printer over there that can do it - is that OK by you?
Johan: how to determine possible sets?
<chaals> [kinko's in Singapore works for me if I don't mind the result being faxed... and trust Kinko's with information but not Chucko's...]
Gerrie: It can be done, depends on who has a motivation to implement this
<Reto> still, if I can detect Kinko's there is no reason why my printer cannot, is there?
Hide Tokuda: Ubiquity Japan - some video clips
scribe: A Love Triangle
... - combination of technologies already available in Japan at the moment
... - future technology: context-aware display
... - purchasing using ubiquitous device
... - location + presense service
... not only protocol but our life is important
... A First Love
... - Future elementary school
... - the child would like to extend his stay at Okinawa...
... - magic mirror: shows the past
... Problem of Uniquitous connection:
... - How to find services
... - how to distinguish devices?
... - u-Photo: snapshot based approch: use information included in image file, using some special viewer
... - superinposing geographic information into picture
thanks so much. see you tomorrow :)
Dave: 2 topics for discussion: (1) Printing and the Ubiquitous Web, (2) Device Coordination
Gerrie: Printing issue is
interesting. But it's not easy.
... not exciting :)
Dave: Printing and the Ubiquitous Web: @@@
<hallvors> "device coordination": whatever it takes to make your things work together?
Toshihiko: Summarizes: Device
... drove three questions
... (1) Scalable Discovery
... - architecture on higher levels
... - vocabulary (ontology, semantic web) for attributes, functions, etc.
... (2) Values beyond existing technology?
... - scalable descovory is one of keys
... (3) Markup and scripts
... - what's scripts?: ECMAScript and/or Java
... (4) Misc
... - What's "device coordination"?
... - and its standardization?
... - current technology landscape in W3C: choreography
... - OASIS
... - request to W3C: too short slot!, many requirements!
Johan: light weight translation is needed.
Dave: mentioned tomorrows schedule and restaulant for dinner
<Reto> 12http://www.swuma.org/2006/ could be a target for vocabulary questions
ok, good boy
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Shinich/Shinichi/ Succeeded: s/2020/2010/ Succeeded: s/protrocols/protocols/ Succeeded: s/point/point identified in this presentation/ Succeeded: s/give/give to whom, when, and where do you keep it?/ Succeeded: s/mot/not/ Succeeded: s/sev/serv/ Succeeded: s/Q2/Kapil Sachdeva/ Succeeded: s/Q3/Tahar Cherif/ Succeeded: s/inaddition/in addition/ FAILED: s/Member has/W3C Members have/ Succeeded: s/Michelle: ?/Michelle: What if somebody steal my smart card?/ Succeeded: s/What is the security architecture? (sorry, not sure, could you help me, charles?)/The WebAPI group is looking at APIs primarily for documents and applications, although they are looking to some extent at devices. But they are not handling the more complex question of security of device connections at the moment, and so browsers probably will not open up authentication and security via connected devices given the current web security/ Succeeded: s/Melinda:/Gerrie:/ Succeeded: s/various protocols/scalable protocols for various devices and environments are required/ Succeeded: s/@@@/we get the printer that couldn't print the job to say "well, there is another printer over there that can do it - is that OK by you?/ Succeeded: s/@@@/It can be done, depends on who has a motivation to implement this/ Succeeded: s/A First Love/... A First Love/ Succeeded: s/Problem:/Problem of Uniquitous connection:/ Succeeded: s/it's not easy./But it's not easy./ Succeeded: s/Conclusion of Discussion/Breakout reports and discussion/ Succeeded: s/Printing and the Ubiquitous Web/Dave: Printing and the Ubiquitous Web: @@@/ Found Scribe: Kazuyuki Inferring ScribeNick: Kazuyuki Found ScribeNick: Kazuyuki Found ScribeNick: olivier Found ScribeNick: Kazuyuki ScribeNicks: Kazuyuki, olivier WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: CMN Charles Dave Don DonR DonW Franklin Gerrie Hirotaka Johan Kangchan Kapil Kazuyuki Kazuyuki_ Michelle PUCC Q1 Reto Reto_ Satoru ScribeNick Toshihiko Vincent chaals chaals- chibao hallvors herve herve_ karl karlLapUshi karlUshi mimasa olivier paper quint quint_ sakakura shinichi shinichi_ You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/ubiwebws-agenda.html Got date from IRC log name: 8 Mar 2006 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2006/03/08-ubiweb-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]