Edit comment LC-863 for Accessibility Guidelines Working Group

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Comment LC-863

Comment Shortname:

Commenter: Joe Clark 2 <joeclark@joeclark.org>

Message-id:

Section of the document concerned:

[Free text description]Document as a wholeIntroduction Related Documents Authoring tools The Role of User Agents The Four Principles of Accessibility Important New Terms Used in WCAG 2.0 Conformance Technology assumptions and the "baseline" Conformance levels and the baseline Conformance claims Content that conforms to WCAG 1.0 How to refer to WCAG 2.0 from other documents Guideline 1.1 Success Criterion 1.1.1 Guideline 1.2 Success Criterion 1.2.1 Success Criterion 1.2.2 Success Criterion 1.2.3 Success Criterion 1.2.4 Success Criterion 1.2.5 Success Criterion 1.2.6 Success Criterion 1.2.7 Guideline 1.3 Success Criterion 1.3.1 Success Criterion 1.3.2 Success Criterion 1.3.3 Success Criterion 1.3.4 Success Criterion 1.3.5 Guideline 1.4 Success Criterion 1.4.1 Success Criterion 1.4.2 Success Criterion 1.4.3 Success Criterion 1.4.4 Guideline 2.1 Success Criterion 2.1.1 Success Criterion 2.1.2 Guideline 2.2 Success Criterion 2.2.1 Success Criterion 2.2.2 Success Criterion 2.2.3 Success Criterion 2.2.4 Success Criterion 2.2.5 Success Criterion 2.2.6 Guideline 2.3 Success Criterion 2.3.1 Success Criterion 2.3.2 Guideline 2.4 Success Criterion 2.4.1 Success Criterion 2.4.2 Success Criterion 2.4.3 Success Criterion 2.4.4 Success Criterion 2.4.5 Success Criterion 2.4.6 Success Criterion 2.4.7 Success Criterion 2.4.8 Guideline 2.5 Success Criterion 2.5.1 Success Criterion 2.5.2 Success Criterion 2.5.3 Success Criterion 2.5.4 Guideline 3.1 Success Criterion 3.1.1 Success Criterion 3.1.2 Success Criterion 3.1.3 Success Criterion 3.1.4 Success Criterion 3.1.5 Success Criterion 3.1.6 Guideline 3.2 Success Criterion 3.2.1 Success Criterion 3.2.2 Success Criterion 3.2.3 Success Criterion 3.2.4 Success Criterion 3.2.5 Guideline 4.1 Success Criterion 4.1.1 Success Criterion 4.1.2 Guideline 4.2 Success Criterion 4.2.1 Success Criterion 4.2.2 Success Criterion 4.2.3 Success Criterion 4.2.4 Appendix A: Glossary Appendix B: Checklist Appendix C: Acknowledgements Appendix D: Comparison of WCAG 1.0 checkpoints to WCAG 2.0 Appendix E: References
or

Refinement of the section concerned:

Status:

open proposal pending resolved_yes resolved_no resolved_partial other assigned to Nobody Abma, Jake Abou-Zahra, Shadi Allan, Jim Auclair, Christopher Avila, Jonathan Babinszki, Tom Bailey, Bruce Bernard, Renaldo Bernier, Alex Blake, Matthew Boudreau, Denis Brewer, Judy Butler, Shari Campbell, Alastair Carlson, Laura Chakravarthula, Srinivasu Cirrincione, Pietro Conway, Vivienne Cooper, Michael Crutchfield, Elizabeth Deltour, Romain Dick, Wayne Ding, Chaohai Dirks, Kim Dixit, Shwetank Draffan, E.A. Duggin, Alistair Eggert, Eric Elledge, Michael Faulkner, Steve Ferraz, Reinaldo Fiers, Wilco Fischer, Detlev Foliot, John Garrish, Matt Garrison, Alistair Gower, Michael Guarino Reid, Loretta Hakkinen, Markku Haritos-Shea, Katie Henry, Shawn Hoffmann, Thomas Horton, Sarah Isager, Kasper Jensen, Tobias Christian Johansson, Stefan Johlic, Marc Johnson, Rick Jones, Crystal Joys Andersen, Wilhelm Kapoor, Shilpi Keim, Oliver Kirkpatrick, Andrew Kirkwood, John Kiss, Jason Kraft, Maureen Ku, JaEun Kurapati, Sujasree Lauke, Patrick Lauriat, Shawn Lee, Steve Lemon, Gez Li, Alex Li, Kepeng Li, Liangcheng Loiselle, Chris Lowney, Greg Lui, Edwina Lund, Adam Ma, Jia MacDonald, David Mace, Amanda Manser, Erich Martin, Debra McCormack, Scott McMeeking, Chris McSorley, Jan Milliken, Neil Montgomery, Rachael Mueller, Mary Jo nicole, windmann Niemann, Gundula Nurthen, James O Connor, Joshue Oh, Jeong-Hun Panchang, Sailesh Pandhi, Charu Pasi, Aparna Patch, Kimberly Philipp, Melanie Pluke, Mike Pouncey, Ian Repsher, Stephen Rochford, John Runyan, Marla Savva, Andreas Sawczyn, Steve Schnabel, Stefan Seeman-Kestenbaum, Lisa Sims, Glenda Singh, Avneesh Skotkjerra, Stein Erik Sloan, David Smith, Alan Smith, Jim Solomon, Adam Spellman, Jeanne F Strobbe, Christophe Suprock, Greg Swallow, David Thompson, Kenneth Thyme, Anne Ueki, Makoto Vaishnav, Jatin Vanderheiden, Gregg Venkata, Manoj Wahlbin, Kathleen Wang, Can WANG, WEI White, Jason Zelmanowicz, Erica Zerner, Adam Zhang, Mengni

Type: substantive editorial typo question general comment undefined

Resolution status:

Response drafted Resolution implemented Reply sent to commenter

Response status:

No response from Commenter yet Commenter approved disposition Commenter objected to disposition
Commenter's response (URI):

Comment:

From http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2006May/0119.html

WCAG 2 is nearly consistent in pretending that Web standards do not exist (with one curious exception that I'll get to shortly). Some teenagers have greater understanding of valid, semantic markup than the Working Group does, as evinced in passages like these:

Information that is conveyed by variations in presentation of text is also conveyed in text, or the variations in presentation of text can be programmatically determined.

Now, what does ""presentation"" mean? Really?

Doesn't the requirement to convey the information in text make it possible to write instructions for an online form as follows?

* Fields marked in red are required.
* Fields marked in green are optional but recommended.

I have just ""conveyed"" the colour differences. (It so happens that the colours are exactly the rare ones that are confusable to colourblind people.)

If I am using markup to vary presentation of text, as one typically will (how else do you do it if you aren't using a picture of text?), how is that markup ever not programmatically determinable? The browser had to read it to vary the presentation in the first place. All the usual elements, like em, strong, b, i, and u, are understandable by a machine. So is CSS, even at the simple level used in this document as a demonstration (span class=""red"" or =""green""). More complex CSS selectors, like :last-child, are also programmatically determinable.

In essence, for any author using markup, even lousy presentational markup, how is it possible to flunk this criterion?

Related issues: 558 583 636 863 964 1284 715
(space separated ids)

WG Notes: [TEAMC] David MacDonald takes a shot at a response: {not-accept} Respond with: Required fields that are distinguishable by colour only would fall under guideline 1.3.2 "Any information that is conveyed by color is also visually evident without color." The definition of “programmatically determined� requires that the information must not only be determinable, but that it must be determinable in a “user-agent-supported manner." The definition of "User agent supported" has been updated re: Comment 1508 to the following: <new_definition> user-agent-supported implemented by user agents including assistive technologies Note: One of the factors that should be considered before adding a technology to a baseline is the availability of affordable user agents and assistive technologies which support the technology.</new_definition> The definition makes it clear that programmatic determination includes assistive technologies. If it is not determinable by current AT then it would fail. Discussed in the 25 January 2007 telecon: resolution: accept 863 as amended http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2007/01/25-wai-wcag-minutes.html

Resolution: SC 1.3.1 and 1.3.4 have been combined to read "Information and relationships conveyed through presentation can be programmatically determined or are available in text, and notification of changes to these is available to user agents, including assistive technologies." This wording is similar to the wording of SC 1.3.4 at the time of the comment, but the success criterion is clear that it is the _information_ conveyed by variations in presentation that must be conveyed, not the _fact_ that such information exists as the example in the comment suggests. The How to Meet document for the combined Success Criterion has been expanded to make this clearer.

(Please make sure the resolution is adapted for public consumption)