See also: IRC log
Ben: if DanBri shows we have another agenda
item to discuss -- the schema for html rel values
... I've make all the critical changes to rdfa-syntax
... the rules are consistent with everything we've discussed
... issues remaining may be around the examples
-> Additional Examples for RDF/A Primer [Mark]
Mark: my goal was to start from the viewpoint
of someone who is already an HTML author and wants to 'beef up' his
document
... starting with blogs, as FOAF works well with them
... got diverted on discussion with DanBri on distinction between document
and person and which URI applies to each
... I've come to a new radical conclusion that I will write up
... no longer basing RDF/A on the URI of the document
... a common use case is: given an item of some type, I want to add
properties to them
... e.g. an item for sale
... for a FOAF home page, the URI shouldn't identify the person
... could have two FOAF pages at different URIs talking about the same
person
... so the actual URI of where the document is is not such important
information
... even the information about a license is in another document
[Ralph thinks Mark's realization is plausible; will have to see what implications he draws from it.]
Ben: perhaps a better example for bloggers is
that of having a blog be its own RSS feed
... people will understand this
... I'm willing to write up this example for consideration
... I am convinced that more examples makes the document better; thanks,
Mark, for pushing this
point 1, on the use of "content"
Steven: "content" comes directly from HTML4
... it's always been there and it shows the actual relationship between the
element content and the thing we're referring to
... its meaning has not changed from HTML4
... it's useful for people to see that these are natural uses of HTML
Ralph: "content" is a natural word for folks familiar with HTML and that is our target audience
ACTION: Ben respond to Pat's RDF/A comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action01]
Steven: re point 2, we can say that yes, we
agree; IRIs are the new URIs but we don't need to rename
... in XHTML2 we kept the name URI even though we're changing the value range
to IRI
... we say "thing called URI in XHTML2 _is_ an IRI"
Hayes point 3 -- on including "pure" RDF triples
Steven: I could not see how Pat came to the conclusion that <li> was required
Mark: some of our examples use LI -- perhaps those are the only ones that produce pure triples
Ben: let's give another example [to Pat] that
shows how to produce a triple without LI
... perhaps another example on "pure RDF" could be added to the Primer
... may be worth reviving the "advanced topics" section of the Primer
Mark: second part of Pat's point relates to
Gary Ng's comment on use of html:about rather than rdf:about
... Pat is suggesting that in-line RDF/XML might be useful
... I think it's appropriate to respond to Pat that yes, sprinkling LINK and
META throughout the document is the way to introduce RDF triples
... could even link to some embedded RDF
Ben: I'd have gone for a separate document in
such a case
... if the author's goal is not to use the rendered content for dual-purpose
of metadata, then put the RDF in a separate document
... so respond to Pat with examples other than LI and remind him that
<link rel='meta' ...> still works
so RESOLVED
Hayes point 4 -- using CSS to attach properties
Ben: propose to respond that yes, we agree it would be nice for CSS to become RDF/A aware but that is out of our scope
Mark: I think he's suggesting using CSS
selectors to attach properties
... our response could be "why not just do that in RDF"?
... e.g. it's not CSS's job to attach an 'age' property to every span
Ralph: CSS's job is all about presentation and
RDF/A is _not_ about presentation
... I think extending the use of CSS for semantics is muddying the water
Mark: and this complicates Jeremy's implementation; he'd have to parse the CSS too
Ben: I don't believe we resolved an old issue as to whether class and role attributes affect RDF semantics
Ben: is there anything the HTML WG needs from this Task Force at this time?
Steven: no, I'm happy with the state of the
document right now
... we're working hard on a new XHTML2 draft
... hope to be able to announce a new draft worth looking at by the end of
this week
... we're working on the whole draft, not just the RDF/A bits
... we discovered a number of issues that were recorded as resolve in the
issues list but we hadn't replied to the authors
Ben: Bjorn's email from a year ago has been on my to-do list and I think we can now give a more precise response
(ACTION? Ben)
Re: [ALL] RDF/A Primer for review [Gary Ng 2006-01-16]
section 2, "RDF/A itself"
Ng 2.1 -- on synchronization of metadata
Steven: this is not a new problem and it will
never go away
... e.g. the HTML might claim an image is GIF but it can later change its
representation to JPEG
Ralph: this touches on the general SemWeb question of 'trust' -- which metadata do you believe? that question is out of scope for XHTML
Ben: in our response we can note that the same problem exists in RDF/XML
Steven: and it exists even in pure HTML; the HTTP headers can disagree with the HTML content
Ng 2.2 - consistency
Ben: answer is to use separate files
Mark: Gary's suggestion here is to reuse the
RDF attributes directly
... the reason this fails is because RDF/XML has a striped syntax
... so you don't know whether you're parsing a resource or properties about
that resource
Steven: so the answer is that these syntaxes are different
Mark: a lot of work went into trying to resuse the RDF attributes but this failed due to the striping issue
Ng 2.3 - inheriting via nesting
Ben: seems to be a misunderstanding; there is inheritance if there is no new 'about' attribute
Steven: idea is to nest META elements, which you can do
Ng 2.4 - img element
Steven: response is that XHTML2 does allow
content in IMG now
... but we didn't resolve the question whether the triples apply to the
src
<benadida> TF issues list
Ben: we have a tentative answer to issue
6 of 'yes', pending a further evaluation of the semantics of 'src' from
Mark
... given that XHTML2 says the content is ignored unless the src fails
Steven: in terms of processing XHTML2 says the
content should be ignored if src succeeds
... given nested IMG with a JPEG src inside an IMG with a PNG src ...
Ben: can we distinguish between parsing and resolving?
Steven: could create some difficulties,
depending on whether the nested elements have src attributes
... could continue to process the children for semantic content
... but this would lead to two ways to use the content
... this mixes up the two bits of processing in a messy way
Ben: this same thing happens for objects
Mark: could specify that META and LINK are the
first things to be recognized
... even before deciding whether the IMG succeeds or fails
Ralph: I prefer the perspective that says the
semantics are still intended even if the content is not used for
"rendering"
... for example, a client that is configured not to display images should
still consider the metadata to be asserted
Mark: does this answer Gary's question?
... a processor that understands RDF/A can make use of the nested value
Ben: but note that the content is _not_ rendered if the src succeeds, so an author cannot expect the metadata to always be rendered
Mark: if both src and about are specified, we
generate both sets of triples
... by the general rule that we generate everything possible
Ben: so advice to authors might be not to
specify both src and about [unless you're sure that's what you intended]
... does the HTML WG agree that parsing the content of IMG for metadata is OK
even if the src succeeds?
Steven: yes, this isn't a problem
Ben: so we can say that issue 6 is fully resolved as 'yes'?
[no objections]
Steven: I'm pretty sure it's OK but will think about it
ACTION: Steven confirm an answer on issue 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action02]
Mark: appears to be the middle choice
<danbri> http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/ dangling in limbo... can we get a couple reviewers from the tf?
Ng 2.5 - flexible referrals
Mark: doesn't feel true to me
... we've been working on XForms for a while
Ben: maybe another example would help
Steven: what Gary is asking for in forms is
already provided in XHTML forms by using P3P
... P3P is an annotation vocabulary specifically targetted at privacy
... Gary's use case has already been covered
Ben: seems we could just use meta and link to
annotate elements
... I don't see that there is a need for special subjects and objects
Mark: could imagine some XLink-like language
... but it gets messy to add a level of indirection to every element
Steven: Gary seems to be asking to be able to talk about attributes in the same way we can talk about elements
Ben: it's a question of complexity
... can annotate forms elements
Mark: Gary may be trying to find a way to reuse attribute content as metadata in the way we reuse element content
Ben: propose to respond that RDF/A can annotation forms elements
Mark: and further note that reuse of attribute content for metadata will add too much complication
DanBri: it's been some months since I last
looked at it
... I recall that it felt done except for re-doing the image
... and my knowledge of the specific link types in HTML was sketchy
... current markup was done by hand yet the text is almost the same as is in
the XHTML spec; can we find a way to extract this from the XHTML spec?
Ben: does this seem like something that should be integrated into the XHTML2 spec?
Steven: we've already defined the meaning of
the attribute values
... might be no objection to including an RDF schema for the values as an
appendix
DanBri: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/
does have a list of open issues
... in some cases I tweaked the [HTML] text to read better as a property
description
ACTION: All in the TF to look at http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/ to decide whether it's ready for WG review [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action03]
Ben: from next week our telecon time is 1 hour earlier
next meeting: 24 Jan, 1400 UTC
ACTION: Ben draft a response to Gary Ng's comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action04]
ACTION: Ben to draft a new example of RDF/A as an XHTML document that is its own RSS feed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action05]
Ben: should we ask the WG to publish the Primer as a Note or as a WD?
Ralph: I propose WD -- that we set an expectation that we intend to update it
RESOLUTION: we ask the WG to approve publication of the RDF/A primer as a Working Draft
[adjourned]
(scribe note: the following were copied from the previous meeting record. These were not explicitly discussed during this meeting.)
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics$Log: 17-swbp-minutes.html,v $ Revision 1.5 2006/01/18 19:08:54 swick Update Steven action on timeline to DONE Revision 1.4 2006/01/18 14:35:00 swick Cleaned up, missing topic headings added, old actions carried forward Revision 1.3 2006/01/18 14:15:27 swick first quick cleanup