See also: IRC log
<antoine> Meeting: LLD XG
<antoine> Chair: Antoine
<TomB> antoine - already set up :-)
Accept minutes of previous meeting?
<antoine> RESOLVED: To accept http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html
markva:added to the wiki page
markva:three subsections, one for each term
markva:short explanations and examples for similar terms, confusions
markva: can people look over and see if it's clear?
emma: q about definitions,
attributes or elements
... why use attributes rather than property to describe the metadata?
markva: i thought we have agreed on term "element"
<TomB> Mark: "A metadata element set defines classes of entities and attributes (elements) of entities."
markva: property too RDF-centric
emma: questioning the term "attribute"
<kcoyle> i like attribute
markva: using it as synonym - if confusing it can be deleted
<TomB> +1 "attributes" introduces new possibilities for confusion
emma: not relation oriented
... attributes are more like literals, then there are relationships - between two entities
markva: either delete word "attribute" or add attributes and relations
emma: add attributes or relations
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest that people may think of XML attributes
TomB: see some possibility of confusion with XML attributes, etc.
<Marcia> 'attributes' are used in various library museum metadata sets/schemas
<kcoyle> unfortunately, attribute is what is used in frbr
<TomB> kcoyle, good point
antoine: is everyone happy with this proposal for markva? any objection?
<kcoyle> no objection
<TomB> can live with "attribute"...
<GordonD> Keep the quote marks around attribute, etc. to warn of ambiguity between different communities.
<TomB> +1 to Gordon's suggestion
<scribe> ACTION: Mark to add these definitions to the wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action01] [DONE]
<antoine> Karen's mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0086.html
"Karen's feedback http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0086.html"
kcoyle: took various things
mentioned in the use cases and put them in a list
... separated them out into proper categories
... gave some interesting examples
... VIAF - is that a dataset? or vocabulary?
jeff_: i don't think VIAF is a
vocabulary -- it's an ontology, but that's not it's
... thing that makes uncomfortable with "data set" is that there's no bulk download
... geonames, dbpedia are available for download - they are datasets
<jodi> to me, a data set is not necessarily available in bulk
<emma> +1 jodi
<Asaf> +1 jodi
markva: looking at VIAF example,
and I think it's a vocabulary
... documented in confusions part in aforementioned section
... We can discuss it on the mailing list.
... viaf lists authorities - authorities intended to be used in metadata records as values of the elements in the records
... also has its own set of metadata elements to describe authorities
... but primarily intended to be used in other datasets
<jeff_> I can believe VIAF is a value vocabulary in part
<kcoyle> mark makes sense to me. i can see it either way, tho'
markva: can see it either way, but would argue towards value vocabulary
antoine: things could be both
<Marcia> Authority files are value vocabularies. VIAF itself is a hub of them and provides more other things. If not consider it as an authority, it is a dataset.
kcoyle: it's really a function of how you use it
<TomB> MikaelN also made this point at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0023.html
TomB: the important thing here is to distinguish functionality
<Zakim> emma, you wanted to discuss the definition of value vocab
emma: back to the definition of
value vocbulary, we need to be more explicit
... confusion around value term - literal? URI?
... value could be a code, URI, literal, etc.
... these value vocabularies are used in environments as a closed list
<Marcia> always controlled (value voc.)
emma: always pick from the data set -
<scribe> ACTION: Mark and Emmanuelle to clean definition of value vocabulary and use of attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action02]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases - all use cases are linked here
<scribe> ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action02] [CONTINUES]
emma: we are closed to
... if you're happy with wording, we can delete top of page
... just consider that we're done
kcoyle: minor editing, maybe, but that's it
<scribe> ACTION: Mark, Jodi, and Asaf to curate digital objects cluster for end of December [recorded in [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]
markva: 1/3 away from cluster page
antoine: do you think you'll be finished soon?
markva: won't be here next week, so next 2 weeks?
<Asaf> I will be putting some more time into it in the coming two weeks
<TomB> wonders if the Cluster pages should be linked to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline ?
<emma> +1 Tom
<Asaf> TomB: our thoughts lead this way
<Asaf> we were thinking of proceeding with a view to filling the outline.
TomB: we could link cluster pages to final report outline
<scribe> ACTION: TomB to link cluster pages to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action05]
<scribe> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05] [CONTINUES]
GordonD: still working on it - topic section still the main area to do. 1 or 2 weeks, max.
<scribe> ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]
jeff_: still working on it -
haven't talked about it, couple of weeks
... been using google docs to edit the content
<jodi> sorry, skype has been buggy for me recently
<scribe> ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action07] [CONTINUES]
antoine: quite late on this one,
Marcia has joined us
... together can make progress, hope for 1 or 2 weeks
-> See "Use case notes page" and "use case clustering" threads
jodi: talked about having a
cluster on collections or collection level description
... find books in a collection, access description, library hours, etc.
... not sure if it's about collection building?
... social cluster - uldis & jodi curating
jodi: social and emergent
... circulation data, lending materials to others
<uldis> some ideas at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0006.html
jodi: kindle (nook) lending
<uldis> (and the thread starting at that email)
jodi: lend ebooks to one another,
how did they find each other? what are the circumstances?
... why "emergent" is relevant: whole realm of machine & computational uses, like relevance ranking
... it's not only ubiquitous, but needs more attention
... use cases are mainly focused on what people are already doing
antoine: would you be happy with continuing discussion on mailing list?
<scribe> ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]
<GordonD> I will curate the collections cluster
<Asaf> cheers for Gordon!
<GordonD> Co-curators welcome!
<jodi> There's still one use case that doesn't have a cluster. Has someone adopted this? http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_NLL_Digitized_Map_Archive
<jodi> I think maybe it's archives/heterogeneous material but maybe there's another
<scribe> ACTION: GordonD to curate collection cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action11]
<GordonD> I assume I will have that support!
<emma> for me, it's rather digital objects
<uldis> perhaps it is relevant to both?
<emma> I'll look at it again.
<markva> is there an aspect of groups in it? then it belongs in DO
<Asaf> yes, I think it's in DO.
<scribe> ACTION: Curators of archives and digital objects clusters to take http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_NLL_Digitized_Map_Archive [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action12]
<scribe> Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action02]
antoine: would we like owen to participate in future call?
<kcoyle> i had a comment/question on clusters/final document
antoine: or are we happy with explanation?
<Asaf> I'd love to hear more on JISC
<Asaf> ...but no one else would?
<Asaf> I guess I can follow up offline, though.
<Asaf> I don't think it makes sense to use up call time just for me.
<GordonD> +1 for existing explanation
<kcoyle> happy enough
<emma> I'm happy with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0119.html
<Asaf> no, it's fine.
<TomB> fine with me
<antoine> ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action02] [DONE]
antoine: perhaps come back to it later rather than close it forever
<Zakim> kcoyle, you wanted to discuss cases of 'missing technology'
<jodi> this is a key question: what is stopping people
kcoyle: what are the missing
technologies that preventing people from realizing their use
... we haven't identified what is needed to move forward?
<emma> we should add a section in use case cluster curation template
<TomB> We don't seem to have identified in our use cases the problems that
<Marcia> do you mean 'types of' technologies?
<TomB> people are facing; what is holding them back; what is missing from the
<TomB> available technology that would make LLD implementable. It seems that
<TomB> this would be an important section in the report since it is from
<TomB> these barriers that projects could be incubated.
<markva> do you have an example of barrier?
kcoyle: what is missing to help you move forward with your use case?
antoine: topics are mostly technology topics, when we come back, we can say how they were handled in various use cases
kcoyle: there are probably
examples of vocabs needed that don't exist yet
... there isn't software that helps make relationships in a db environment
... people making datasets available, but no library specific applications
... gap analysis
... we didn't ask people doing the use cases to do the gap analysis
<markva> start separate wiki page for that?
antoine: there was a section of the use case template for that - not many people used it
emma: there is a section for
problems and limitations - not always relevant
... out of all the use cases, one of them might have a limitation that's general to many
<jodi> I think this is a good idea: looking at all the problems + limitations out of what's already in the use cases
<GordonD> +1 Emma's suggestion to curate problems/limitations from use cases and list discussions
... we do have some material in the use cases
kcoyle: since i'm the one bothered, i should go through and make a list
<markva> +1 !
antoine: could you do it for your own cluster?
kcoyle: let me see if our cluster reveals problems
<scribe> ACTION: kcoyle to see if cluster reveals problems or limitations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action15]
<scribe> ACTION: GordonD and Antoine to study use cases that relate to vocabulary merging use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action01] [DROPPED]
<scribe> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]
<Asaf> I think at least a link to some sketch on this should make it into the report.
<scribe> ACTION: Jeff to write one or two paragraphs on VIAF design discussions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]
antoine: any other business?
<Marcia> thanks, Ray