See also: IRC log
<emma> Previous: 2010-12-09 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/09-lld-minutes.html
<uldis> hi emma, i'm Uldis Bojars
<uldis> we talked on email that i should introduce me at the start of the telco -- but i have difficulty connecting to the telco phone line
<emma> Scribe: Karen
<emma> scribenick: kcoyle
<uldis> antoine: i promised to introduce myself to the group, but have difficulty connecting to the telco bridge. sorry that i won't be able to participate in voice, at least for the beginning of the call
RESOLUTION: Minutes accepted
No telecons for the next two weeks
Next call will be January 6, 2011
There is the lingering terminology issue that needs to be resolved
proposed in cologne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0005.html
PROPOSED: to adopt the terminology proposed in Cologne for the future draft report
markva: "dataset" refers to a
third type of thing, such as sets of bib records
... values int hose records would be value vocabularies
<TomB> +1 to support http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0095.html, noting Antoine's reply at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0097.html
emma: antoine suggested 'reference dataset'
antoine: some things like name authority are not thought of in the library world as vocabularies, but datasets
markva: antoine is talking about exceptions to markva's typology, but these exceptions do not make a difference
antoine: it's a question of scope
markva: 1- bib records, 2 -
values used in those records from vocabularies, 3- properties
... 1 - dataset, 2 value vocabularies 3 metadata element set
<jodi> it's always about the exceptions though ;(
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to reinforce that these are being classified based on use - not an air-tight typology, as per Mikael
tomB: we want to come up with 3 intuitively recognizable concepts without expecting that things will fall neatly into a single category
<michaelp> Couldn't a dataset be seen as a combination/selection of entities from value and element vocabularies?
tomB: things could be used in different ways
<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to support flexibility with MARC relators
tomB: support distinction between dataset and value vocabulary, even though some sets of URIs can be used in more than one way
antoine: there could be
flexibility between group 1 and 2, such as marc relators
... possible confusion in use of the term "value" -- some people have strong association with skosxl label
tomB: we should not try to be
more precise than: value vocabulary is a set of terms that are/may
be used as values
... includes skos concepts and dcmi "type"s
<edsu> not sure if it's totally relevant, but danbri announced the Linked Datasets with the voiD Vocabulary w3c note which could provide some foundation for talking about "dataset": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2010Dec/0161.html
<TomB> +1 for Mark's proposal
discussing marks' summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0121.html
tomB: we agree that data models are not a special category, e.g. FRBR
<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to comment on possible dataset confusion?
antoine: ref. edsu link above, use of "dataset" is dangerous
emma: datasets are about instances of descriptions
<TomB> is wondering whether both element sets and value vocabularies could be seen as datasets
<markva> hard to hear, typing in background
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask whether element sets are also datasets?
emma: we are defining terms for our report, not other contexts
tomB: what is NOT a dataset? we
could have element sets and value vocabularies and they are
... dataset could be everything that isn't in the other 2 categories; dataset is the more general term
edsu: note talks about vocabularies; as per antoine, "dataset" is any triples, so it's very open
tomb: element set is "dataset," ed?
markva: "dataset" is ambiguous; we should keep our audience in mind: librarians -- we want to communicate with them
<jodi> 'bibliographic dataset' is more restrictive, because librarians might see that as excluding archival data, say
emma: value vocabs, metadata datasets... these are datasets
... 3 defs: value vocabs, metadatasets, dataset
<scribe> ACTION: Mark to add these definitions to the wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action01]
<TomB> edsu, this typology seems consistent with your point at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0101.html, where "element sets" = "RDF vocabulary"
RESOLUTION: to use these three terms as defined in our report
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest we discuss the definitions on a future call
tomB: put these defintions on future call
<kcoyle> I'm available
<TomB> value vocabulary, metadata element set, dataset
RESOLUTION: the three terms are: value vocabulary; metadata element set, and dataset
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest that Mark post the definitions to the list, not just wiki page
tomB: asks mark to also post the definitions to the list
use case work has due date of the end of December
Reporting on cluster work... Bibliographic Data Cluster: created page and posted to mailing list
No one here to report on authority data
<michaelp> Yes, we think so.
vocabulary alignment cluster: will report in January
archive data cluster: nothing new; probably will not finish by end of december
<edsu> lol (on mute)
<TomB> "it's always good to try" :-)
citation cluster: kai has been thinking about vocabulary; essentially done
<pmurray> Agreed. I think the citation group is done for the moment.
<markva> not clear which action?
<emma> ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action03] [DONE]
<edsu> kai's diagram example: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Citations#Illustrative_Example
<markva> unmute me
digital objects cluster: nothing to report
all cluster tasks except citation cluster continue
emma: there are now templates for the use case cluster pages to follow
<uldis> TomB: no, not yet
<TomB> welcome, Uldis!
Uldis: is working with national library of Latvia on linked data
<TomB> Uldis's introduction: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0047.html
What cluster for Uldis? answer: Any that are still ongoing.
<Zakim> jodi, you wanted to ask about unclustered use cases + pending social uses
jodi: there are several use cases
that are not in clusters
... there are uses that not yet have use cases; should we have a miscellaneous cluster?
... or add them to an existing cluster?
... there are things we wanted to take into account, such as more social activities around bibliographic data, social uses of bibliographic data
... should we add these?
<jodi> yes, antoine, that's what I'm referring to
<jodi> the list email is what's http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/index.php?title=UseCaseNotes&oldid=2128
emma: if there are missing use cases that were not covered in the f2f meeting, we need volunteers to contribute these use cases, but it needs to be done soon
<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to ask about social web
<jodi> so, more specifically: Link Social Bibliography to a Bibliographic Network, Find stuff in several collections
<jodi> and Find e-books see http://efoundations.typepad.com/efoundations/2010/07/finding-ebooks.html
<jodi> so those are the 3 use cases I see in "social uses"
antoine: asking if Uldis was involved in social web incubator group, and could take this on?
<jodi> we also have 3 use cases that aren't clustered, here: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Cases#Not_yet_clustered:
<jodi> of those, "using circulation data" could possibly go into "social uses"
problem is that we don't have use cases for these... use cases need to be written
<markva> what do the shepherds of those UCs think where they should go? Jodi, Gordon, William
uldis: would like to team up with someone to do this
<jodi> Uldis, I'm happy to help with them
<scribe> ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action03]
emma: We should put a call on the list to ask others to contribute to these use cases
<jodi> In terms of the not yet clustered, does 'digitized map archive' belong in heterogeneous data?
emma: unclustered cases... let's try to put them into existing clusters
<jodi> circulation data is about what gets used. hard to know where to put it...
<markva> UC can also belong to several clusters; dont see problem with that
<jodi> and library address data is different again
<uldis> antoine: indeed. i own the 'digitized map archive' use case. though i am not certain which of existing clusters it fits best
<scribe> ACTION: Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-OPTIMIZATION [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action04]
<emma> sorry I've been kicked out !!
<pmurray> Did we lose our chair?
yes, we did lose you
shall we end? are we close enough?
<markva> captain overboard!
<markva> antoine, might you step in?
<TomB> antoine is taking over to wrap up...
<scribe> completed use case is unclustered
all other actions continue
emma: reminds us to update events page
this is our way of recording the outreach of the group
<jodi> see you next year! :)
<antoine> bye, happy new year to everyone!
<uldis> happy holidays to everyone! :)
<michaelp> See you next year
<edsu> Bonne année :-D