W3C

i18n ITS wg

12 Oct 2005

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Andrzej, Christian, Felix, Goutam, Richard, Sebastian, Yves
Regrets
Diane, Najib, Tim
Chair
Yves
Scribe
Felix

Contents


Action items

<scribe> ACTION: CL to use ODD to specify the indicator of translatability implementation. (Waiting for progress on the ODD conversion) (pending) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

<scribe> ACTION: FS to ask W3C if there is a methodology for mapping existing / under development (done) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

<scribe> ACTION: FS to check inheritance for xml:lang (as part of his work on a wiki on xml:lang for the i18n core WG) (done) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

<YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2005OctDec/0026.html

<scribe> ACTION: FS to make proposals by mail for a shortcut for the namespace of the ITS specification Working Draft (done) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action04]

<scribe> ACTION: SR to introduce to the working group the l10n / i18n aspects of the TEI (done) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action05]

<YvesS> http://www.tei-c.org/I18N/i18n-talk.pdf

SR: I got useful comments from CL to put in tonight
... I need a prose version for that
... it will be presented at the annual members meeting of TEI in Bulgaria and for a workshop on TEI in Germany

<scribe> ACTION: SR to put a comment on http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509ReqNestedElements in the wiki (pending) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action06]

SR: still pending, work on odd desiderata from FS have more priority

<YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2005OctDec/0038.html

<scribe> ACTION: YS to list possible constraints and values for them (done) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action07]

Yves: CL proposed to integrate white space constraints
... the container size constrained seems to be related to display
... but buffer length seems to be the valid constraint at our level

SR: Why wouldn't you mandate char?

Yves: Would like to do that, but
... if you have some restrictions from your programming language, that might not work

<chriLi> What about sht. like a namespace-related "URI constraint"? We may have to say 'http://ww.y.com/de' may never be changed to 'http://ww.y.com/de'

SR: combination of length and encoding might be difficult

YS: very valid point
... how about white space, CL?

CL: no, nothing more

<chriLi> Correction: What about sht. like a namespace-related "URI constraint"? We may have to say 'xmlns="http://ww.y.com/de"' may never be changed to 'xmlns="http://ww.y.com/en"'

CL: this is on a meta level
... maybe its related to indicator of translatability
... on the constraints again, I tried to check XLIFF again
... I did not find anything more - which is good

<scribe> ACTION: YS to ask RI for techniques template (pending) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action08]

<scribe> ACTION: CL to post more notes on Scoping (done) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action09]

discussions on Scoping (and Extensibility)

<YvesS> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509SpecScoping

YS: currently two main ideas
... one is to use translateYes and translateNo with XPath expressions
... or translate with various values and a separate scope attribute
... two main opinions: use translateYes / translateNo, or the @translate attribute
... we should decide soon, to be able to go to wd

CL: this touches on all data categories we discuss
... e.g. also for ruby, term markup
... indicator of translatability is a particular problematic case
... because we have a different understanding what needs to be captured:
... we have to say "you have to do s.t. about this, and nothing about this"
... doing scoping by means of XPath, I found another argument to use translateYes and translateNo

YS: how could we reach consensus?

CL: a first part would be to say: the general approach is to have an attribute like @dir and a scope attribute like @dirScope
... the same works with @ruby and @rubyScope and other requirements
... the second question is what to do with translatability

YS: explains the scope discussion to AZ

example from Yves:

<parent-of-e translate="yes" translateScope="e@a">

<e translate="no" translateScope="." a="Review">456</e>

</parent-of-e>

translateScope="e/@a"

YS: if you take the full document, it is possible to say different things about 2 attributes at the same element
... that would allow us to have different values

CL: this looks elegant

translateScope="../e/@a">

scribe: I'm just wondering about the root element

CL: should we take an action item about a root element case?

YS: using XPath seems to be original

<chriLi> We would need to look at two special case: root element with children, root element without children

<scribe> ACTION: felix to summarize the discussion of the scope wiki, look at root elements with / without children, and if there are no more comments, to put it into odd [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action10]

YS: the content of "." could be identical to translate="yes"

CL: we added many things, not only translatability:

<!ENTITY % scope

"CDATA">

<!ENTITY % itstagset

"

<!-- one of A or B -->

<!-- start of A -->

translate (yes | no) #IMPLIED

translateNoScope %scope; #IMPLIED

<!-- end of A -->

<!-- start of B -->

translateYes %scope; #IMPLIED

translateNo %scope; #IMPLIED

<!-- end of B -->

locinfo (yes) #IMPLIED

locinfoScope %scope; #IMPLIED

isTerm (yes) #IMPLIED

isTermScope %scope; #IMPLIED

ruby (yes) #IMPLIED

rubyScope %scope; #IMPLIED

dir CDATA #IMPLIED

dirScope %scope; #IMPLIED

lingInfo CDATA #IMPLIED

lingInfoScope %scope; #IMPLIED

equiv CDATA #IMPLIED

"

>

CL: should we put that into the first wd

FS: I think it is a good idea

YS: I think so too

<YvesS> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509SpecExtensibility

<scribe> ACTION: felix to look at the other requirements which are mentioned in the scope wiki. If scope is accepted, put them into odd / xmlspec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action11]

On extensibility

CL: distinction between providing more values, or another namespace

YS: that are two different things, yes
... the namespace approach has the advantage that it is easier to distinct between ITS and extensions

SR: People can put in their own private namespaces, and we have no problem with that

CL: let's look at the attribute "indicator of translatability"
... I wonder how ITS may be able to evolve if people need more than "yes" and "no"

FS:Sperberg-McQueen proposes to give examples for extensibility, in different schema languages

YS: is there a value of extensions like translate-extension?

SR: it depends
... a general container like ITS other would be suitable maybe - is that your idea, CL?

CL: I thought: do we see a need for extensibility?
... if yes, we should decide which mechanism we use

SR: I like the attitude of Sperberg-McQueen (mentioned by FS) of giving examples

AZ: the confusion comes from the real need for extensions for XLIFF
... with ITS, this is a different area

CL: for many data categories, we already know that we don't need extension, e.g. bidi
... so what should we do? Just follow Sperberg-McQueen by giving examples?

AZ: Yes

FS: gives some examples for extension mechanisms in w3c wgs

CL: we should give that into the wd? we don't have extensibility, but you could use e.g. namespaces

<scribe> ACTION: put extensibility in the wd in the way discussed in this teleconf [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action12]

f2f preparation

YS: how will be at the meeting

FS: will leave on last day of f2f around noon or before?

YS: NP

CR: abingdon is the town
... close to Oxford

<r12a> near Didcot

we will have enough cars, I guess

YS: put more information as soon as possible

other business

CL: AZ, you gave a talk in France? Is there a presentation to share?

AZ: Yes, it is in French
... will send a copy to the group
... I gave a similar presentation at xml 2004 in Washington

next meeting

next week, same channel

<GoutamSaha> Bye everybody

<GoutamSaha> Bye

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: felix to look at the other requirements which are mentioned in the scope wiki. If scope is accepted, put them into odd / xmlspec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to summarize the discussion of the scope wiki, look at root elements with / without children, and if there are no more comments, to put it into odd [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: put extensibility in the wd in the way discussed in this teleconf [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action12]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: CL to use ODD to specify the indicator of translatability implementation. (Waiting for progress on the ODD conversion) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: SR to put a comment on http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509ReqNestedElements in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: YS to ask RI for techniques template [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action08]
 
[DONE] ACTION: CL to post more notes on Scoping [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action09]
[DONE] ACTION: FS to ask W3C if there is a methodology for mapping existing / under development [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
[DONE] ACTION: FS to check inheritance for xml:lang (as part of his work on a wiki on xml:lang for the i18n core WG) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
[DONE] ACTION: FS to make proposals by mail for a shortcut for the namespace of the ITS specification Working Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
[DONE] ACTION: SR to introduce to the working group the l10n / i18n aspects of the TEI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
[DONE] ACTION: YS to list possible constraints and values for them [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action07]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2005/10/13 12:10:42 $