See also: IRC log
<Andrew> hello all - am I late?
<shawn> hi, andrew - 7 minutes until start time
<Andrew> just seemed that everyone was in IRC already - speak to you soon
<Andrew> xakim, ??P4 is Andrew
<shawn> scribenick: Jack
Andrew: Created consortium dealing with web accessibility tools
<Andrew> Andrew: Web Accessibility Tools Consortoum (WAT-C) formally launched this week, see http://www.wat-c.org/
harvey: in this area there is a consortium of minimute man libraries that Harvey will present to
Barry: Conference in Madid that dealt with web accessibility with participants from around the world
Shawn: eLearning and accessibility is one area that may lead in web accessibility implementation
<Andrew> Andrew: Dublin Core Conference: http://dc2005.uc3m.es/program/fullprogram.asp#ss6#ACCESSIBILITY
<shawn> George Heake
George: gives background. Works with small business that works with education for k-12 and various universities
<Andrew> George: intro in archives at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JulSep/0169.html
Each person gives a brief introduction
Andrew: Volunters to work with shawn for universities in australia
<Andrew> Andrew: targetting educations - Australia has an active Tertiary education web accessibility group (http://www.wanau.org/)
Wayne: Given the scope of the document it seems about right . There is about the right balances of topics. The emphasis on including users throughout process
Hank: No reference to other organizations that can also do the job.
<Justin> yep...im doing changelog
Shawn: May want to link to resources about using consultants
Andrew: Provide users and some equipment to users that do testing
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog look at referencing getting outside firms with evaluating with users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Wayne: where do sites exist and how do you find users if you are not a large organization without those facilities.
<Andrew> Andrew: that is where disability groups can help
Shawn: Usually we are hesitant to point to specific resources on the web
Shawn: How do we share information appopriately?
Barry: why are we reluctant to link to other resources?
Shawn: There are several reasons. For example the persistence of URI's. Oftentimes resources may not have some things that we may not agree with. Reference implies endoresment sometimes
Barry: Saying there other
resources without linking to them grates some
... While linking implies endorsement it does not imply complete acceptance
Shawn: Let's make this a topic for future agendas
<shawn> ACTION: shawn put on future agenda referencing outside resources (hot topic for invluding users in eval doc) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Hank: general pointers that tell peple what they can look for
Shawn: perhaps this area should be included on agenda for next meeting
Hank: Another problem with pointers is that should be included in all languages
<barry> W3C "Leading the Web to its full potential" feels inconsistent
<barry> with being reticent about linkage. It grates for a page author
<barry> to say, in effect, "there are resources available, but I'm not
<barry> going to tell you where". The issues with link rot and
<barry> un-intended endorsement are genuine problems, so it does need
<barry> more extended discussion. One possible approach in this
<barry> particular case is to have a single outbound link to an external
<barry> service such as <http://del.icio.us/> and then "informally"
<barry> populate that with some good initial links. That puts
<barry> responsibility outside W3, but still helps the reader along...
Justin: Are we going to point to Shawn's itac paper. Wanted more direction. More practical information.
<Justin> ACTION: Shawn /changelog addressing pointing or including how do i do this [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action03]
<Andrew> Andrew: more specific ITTATC page is at http://www.ittatc.org/technical/access-ucd/ut.php
Shawn: Change log should include
more information about how to do this
... How does this draft address issues raised in previous discussions? Especially the types of evaluation we are talking about?
Hank: Better - in that it talks about users and not just useability issues
Shawn: Previous discussions have
raised issues about raising issues of specific tasks.
... Comments on other issues?
Shawn: Let's talk about item 2.4 in agenda
Barry: general impression - document is good. Should we include a couple of sentences about finding things wrong with the assistive technology or user knowledge of using the browser
Andrew: Telling vendors may help to get things changed
Wayne: Issue of users lack of knowledge is critical in getting valid information in terms of making sure the test is accuate and complete
Shawn: Should we include information and link to how to contact vendors
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog relook at including what to do if you find browser AT issue or user issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Doyle: Include information about what to do if you find AT issues or user issues
<Harvey> I regularly report to webmasters or whomever when I find an inaccessible site; and include a pointer to tools that can help.
Hank: Easier to train testers. Not as easy to influence AT to change
Andrew: make sure that basic issues, preliminary testing, before you do this type of testing.
Jack: agrees that it should be more explicit in document
Andrew: Perhaps include in introduction
<Justin> ACTION shawn /change log make more explicit and maybe in the intro doing prelim eval
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /change log make more explicit and maybe in the intro doing prelim eval [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Shawn: Other points that are
missing or not effectively addressed?
... Are there new issues with this draft?
Wayne: Example helps put things into perspective
Barry: Example is fine, but text
around it needs work
... Discussion about screen reader.
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog in the intro first sentence doesn't understand the experience of a screenreader [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action06]
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog add a section on terminology with screen reader [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shawn: Should we add a section to terminolgy with links.
Hank: If the documents, the
standards were better, we would probably not need the
... Do we need to add information about how this testing about meeting WCAG guidelines? How this fits in with assessing conformance?
... Is this an addition to or needed? Should say something that shows link to complying with guidelines.
Barry: Some equivocation is perhaps good.
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog reconsider putting back in that its not required [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action08]
Shawn: Include in change log to have issue addressed.
Wane: Indicate that if you do this, you will probably get to compliance quicker
Shawn: Range of user involvement -
Andrew: Change title
<Andrew> Andrew: Scope of User Involvement?
<Justin> ACTION: Shawn /changelog look at range of user involvement heading [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action09]
<Andrew> Wayne: Range of User Activity?
Hank: Second bullet should be clarified
Shawn: Does the sentence before adequately communicate that large discipline and next sentence is not needed
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog usability testing discipline sentence is deleted [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action10]
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog formal usability testing sentence be broken up [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action11]
Wane: Title is wrong for this section
<Justin> ACTION: Justin look at UCD notes page and adding usability testing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action12]
Shawn: Comments about the next section ' Include diverse users'?
George: section works
Harvey: Pull out last sentence and elaborate because it is really important
<Justin> ACTION: Shawn /changelog in diverse users section emphasize extreme variation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action13]
Shawn: find ways to emphase by
bolding or pulling out as a separate parargraph
... Next section - comments?
Barry: Move elaboration here of screen readers to earlier reference above
<Wayne> We might want to get to Face-to-Face meeting soon...
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog consider adding a sentence about adaptive strategies with mainstream browsers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action14]
Andrew: Some people adapt their browsers rather than using AT - document needs to reflect that
Shawn: Next section - using results
Andrew: some usability issues are specific to particular people with specific disabilities
Shawn: let's touch on that lightly because it is so broad
<Justin> ACTION: shawn /changelog how we might want to cover the issue of usable accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/16-eo-minutes.html#action15]
Shawn: Last section - comments on
drawing conclusions and reporting
... Please look at the document during the next week and send them on the list.
Next weeks meeting is tentative
Meeting in Austartalia is scheduled tentatively for December 12 & 13
There will definitely meeting in March for a face to face
There will definitively be a meeting in Australia in Melbourne on December 12 &13 - details to be worked out
Shawn: They will be posted
<Andrew> March meeting will coincide with Technical Plnary and will be during the week of 27 February - 3 March 2006
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