17 Jun 2005


See also: IRC log


Loughborough_(muted), Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, Andrew, emmajane, Helle_Bjarno, Sylvie_Duchateau, Eric, Velleman
Sailesh, Ron, Alan, Chuck, Roberto




<Justin> yeah sure

<Andrew> \me thinks maybe shawn has an irish accent in her fingers tonight

<shawn> :)

<shawn> it comes from replying to barry's email this morning, i guess

<shawn> :)

<pasquale> hi all, goodmornig

<shawn> good morning, pasquale. do you have a couple of minutes to talk about the call (after CSS)?

<shadi> hi pasquale. you're european so good afternoon!

<pasquale> i've problem with skype today, for now i must go with IRC

<pasquale> sorry

<Helle> I'm a little late on the phone will sjoin asap

<shawn> zkim, who is making noise?

<Justin> scribe?

<emmajane> Can someone make my names match?

<emmajane> thanks

<Justin> no problem

<shawn> scribe info is at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/template.html

<shawn> scribe: wayne

<shawn> scribenick: Wayne


Shawn, is that right for topic marker

<emmajane> it has been hot!


Shawn Wording size, tone, shorter, personal, authorship... Conceptual not formating

Shawn: Task force was very active, has had attrition, opportunities

<Andrew> See: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ut3/

Barry: Good balance for the things we want to cover. How will topics be rolled over?

Shawn: We hope for more than once a month. Roll over topics as they occur. Hoping for once a week

General: Aproval

<barry> good to go!

<emmajane> The Web Standards Project (www.wasp.org) is keen to have an RSS feed that they can use.

<emmajane> The Web Standards Project (www.wasp.org) is keen to have an RSS feed that they can use.

<emmajane> (hmm, I'm gray?)

Judy: Please look at these carefully; look at wording;

Bill: expand the acronym.

Doyle: Headline doesn't seem to work. How does this work with other languages

Andrew: Headlines should target the audience they want.

Bill: Tied to "Got Milk" with "Got ATAG". Will this transfer internationally?

Judy: Language level looks like it is a more consistent language level (natural).

Helle: Agrees that it is clear now.

Shawn: Authorship listing has problems. It would personalize the page, but there are problems identifying all the authors.

Bill: Finding your way is a key element rather than a news item. (It is a standing need.)

<shawn> lol to finding your mojo :-)

Someone pointed out that the play on words that equates "wai" with "way" doesn't work internationally. WAI is often pronouncet with a long I.

Helle: Should point what part of W3C is working on the document.

Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility

Judy: What we want to focus on is the reorganization

Shadi: Developers should be given strategies and tools to strategize and organize removing know barriers from their web site. conceptual comments, no formatting and wording.

Judy: The nested bullets are not the final look;
... Organizational concepts, idea flow...

<judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/impl/

Liam: Organizations are interested a plan, setting steps etc....

Judy: The WAI implementation document addresses many of these issues.

Shadi: Could Liam reflect on that thought a liitle more... would be interested...

<Harvey> What url are we discussing?

<emmajane> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/

Liam: Information about other resources, process management, want answers to problems, have a site to retrofit.

Shadi: This issue was raised in previous

William: Pays no heed to the barriers being social, not just technical, misses the disability rights focus.
... Explicit problem, the real barriers are not preceptible to many developers

Shadi: This is not technical to the point markup; Perhaps we need the referencing.

Henk: You must repair a site according to a report. You may not need awareness.

Justin: You do need the some awareness information so that content managers don't add bad content.

Judy: You need a mini-project planning for retro
... Would flipping the order work: Introduction, actualy retrofitting details, then how you got there and how to prefent it.

<Andrew> Andrew concurs with the flipping idea - lets fix the emergency first, then look at preventing future problem

Barry: Higer priority how do sort out the worst things, then how to prevent it? Triage concept.

Shadi: Maybe the heading of section 2 "Fixing the Causes" is misleading. Many parts of the section are practical. Don't get caught in titles.

William: Need triage on top.

Shadi: Fire fighting seems more technical and less process oriented. It doesn't match the begining of the call.
... When you say more practical, what do you mean?

Judy: Can we brain storm on process steps?

???: Estimating time and other costs of retrofitting


Andrew: Who is involved; Go back to authors for example. Assigning responsibility

William: User complaints; User has standing; Lawyers, Client,..

Wayne: does William mean "role" rather than standing?

Shadi: What is different about retrofitting from than other design issues?
... The only unique thing about retrofitting is prioritizing.
... Where do I start?

Henk: Do miss the related pages.


Judy: Lots of talk about Before/After retrofitting demonstrations; One example was placed before congress, but it was not stand alone.

There were many requests for demo, and we have people to volunteer; We are looking at feedback from EO before that work goes ahead.

Jack: I have seen before an after demos. These really helps people say "I get this now"
... Used one, but did not think it was a WAI demo

Judy: Context- want to fit in with Retrofitting and Evaluation Suite

Helle: The concept is sound.

William: Historically there are lots of examples, but they are hard to find.

Judy: Develop site that is clear and usable.

Helle: What is the starting point? Are we starting from scratch?

Judy: There are three from before, but they are not ready to go. It is pretty rough.
... Like an EO document, introduction (context), references,..bad site, model analysis, mini retrofitting plan, a fixed site.

Wilbarry: Same set of pages and same appearance. Should it be improved apearance:

Helle: We must not mix up accessible and usable.

Barry: The idea is to fix accessibility without changing the sight.
... Site has one good view and several bad looks.

Helle: doen't that mean that the intended appearance should stay the same

<shawn> ?

Barry: I think we agree

<shawn> s/???: The/?Eric: The

Judy: Bad site, evaluation of site (clear about what is needed), mini plan, new site

Wayne: probably need some alternative views. (wish list)

<emmajane> heh

Shadi: Bad html means invalid and misused. Main focus should not be how people experience a site.

Emma: Should not miss some alternative views like color blindness,...

Judy: focus on one good site, followed by links to other sites.

<Andrew> Andrew: or contrast issues (often age related)

Eric: We have a group to work on bad and good pages.

<emmajane> wayne: and also the fact that we shouldn't imply that graphic design changes should _not_ be required to make a site accessible as graphic changes can often mean more people will be required to make the fixes.

<emmajane> erm. triple negatives....

<emmajane> graphic design changes != required

emma, I got it

<emmajane> thanks

highlight heading re-wording

<shawn> (after end of official call :)

<shawn> from discussion: judy "authoring tool not clear...." andrew: "as is catches the target audience"

<shawn> 1. Blog, Wiki, CMS... Got ATAG?

<shawn> 2. Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...

<shawn> pros of 2: adds authoring tools. think "got atag" nicer up front.

<shawn> cons of 2: "blog, wiki, cms" lower & might lost, and that's who & what we're trying to catch with this one

<Justin> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ut3/

<shawn> Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...

<emmajane> Shawn: I agree with Andrew that the terms will catch the attention of the right people/interested people. And then the content of the section will hopefully expand on the title for those that don't know the terms.

<shawn> Blog, Wiki, CMS... Got ATAG?

<shawn> Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...

<shawn> Got ATAG? Blog, Wiki, CMS...

<emmajane> "Got ATAG? [Complicance] for your Authoring Tool"

<shawn> emmajane - can you join call?

<emmajane> on the phone?

<emmajane> d'oh. I just hung up. :)

<shawn> yes. same #

<emmajane> I'll call back in. Sorry. :)

<shawn> Blogs, Wikis, CMS... Got ATAG?

<emmajane> it won't let me back in :(

<emmajane> it says it's restricted.

<Justin> http://www.got-milk.com/index.html

<shawn> emma - we're almost done

<emmajane> It says the code isn't valid anymore.

<emmajane> That'll teach me for next time. ;)

<shawn> emmajane, we don't usually do this. :-)

<shawn> rrsagnet, make logs world

Summary of Action Items

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$Date: 2005/06/17 14:51:15 $

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Succeeded: s/about/after/
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Found Scribe: wayne
Found ScribeNick: Wayne
Default Present: Doyle_Saylor, Loughborough, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Wayne, Henk, Liam, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, +1.416.531.aaaa, Andrew, Helle_Bjarno, Sylvie_Duchateau, emmajane
Present: Loughborough_(muted) Doyle_Saylor Shadi Shawn Justin Liam Wayne Henk Bingham Jack Judy Barry Pasquale Andrew emmajane Helle_Bjarno Sylvie_Duchateau Eric Velleman
Regrets: Sailesh Ron Alan Chuck Roberto
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005AprJun/0159.html
Got date from IRC log name: 17 Jun 2005
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/17-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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