W3C

RDF-in-XHTML TF

12 Apr 2005

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Ralph Swick, Steven Pemberton
Regrets
Jeremy
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph
Previous Meeting
05 April
Next Meeting
26 April

Contents


 -> previous meeting 2005-04-05

Action Review

-> Last Meeting's action summary

ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements [CONTINUES]

Ben: I spoke with DanBri and he said he hoped to do this action before the end of the month

ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities [CONTINUES]

Ben: more email sent to Gavin

Ralph: Tom reported at last week's WG telecon that he had sent feedback
... but couldn't find it in email
... Tom will regenerate it if necessary

Ben: neither could I; Tom though he'd sent feedback but we're not able to find it

ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [DONE]

ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2 [CONTINUES]

Ben: there is not yet a public URI for the XHTML2 draft, correct?

Steven: correct, the current document is Member-only

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050411/

Ralph: it's only a problem if the HTML WG doesn't want those restricted links named in our public forum

Steven: posting those URIs is not a problem for the HTML WG

ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2 [DONE]

ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem [DONE]

<benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2005Apr/0032

<benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0004.html

Ben: action done, as question was asked

ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback

ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases) [CONTINUES]

Ben: I have a work-in-progress

Ben: I hope to add English descriptions of the goal of the community for each case
... I will provide RDF/XML examples
... hoping that Steven and Mark will provide the XHTML2 serialization

Mark: yep

XHTML2 - RDF/A

Mark: Steven and I have a number of sample documents we have been using
... we'd like someone else's documents to check as well

<Steven> (e.g. RSS in XHTML)

Ben: it would be nice to have some tests that combine RSS, FOAF, and Dublin Core

Steven: Last Call WD now hinges on getting the schema up-to-date
... specifically, we discovered our schema for XForms was out of date

Ben: will the RDF Schema hold you up?

Steven: no, that can be done as a Note

Mark: I started to reply to some of last week's bnode comments

<MarkB_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168

<Steven> (Note that the rdf/a draft is now in W3C space)

Mark: see Creative Commons example in rdf-a.html
... why would this example (section 6.1) mean anything but an anonymous node?
... the only thing you can't do is refer to this node from outside the document
... from the HTML side, you'd argue that id is creating anonymous nodes
... from the RDF side, what we want is a way to express anonymity
... we already have about
... and html:id
... so why do we need another mechanism?
... if you are really creating an external identifier use about, otherwise use id
... this makes most things be 'anonymous' nodes unless you use about
... I've tried this for a few examples and it seems to work

Ben: is there no longer subject inheritance; does about no longer inherit from parent?

Mark: Steven and I have gone back and forth about this, not yet reflected in drafts
... we've concluded that anything that has only a property and object should always be about the document itself
... so you no longer get nodes being bnodes by default as in the previous draft
... see example in 5.2
... the link inside the blockquote would now have the document as subject, not the blockquote
... Jeremy had commented that the inheritance rules were complicated

Steven: another advantage is that this is more natural for the HTML community

Ralph: I suspect this is a much cleaner design
... it likely solves Jeremy's observation that the October draft appeared to create many more triples than the prose implied

Ben: I think most document authors will not be explicitly interested in anonymous nodes, so this design feels better

Steven: this design is reflected in the current XHTML2 editor's draft
... the rdf-a document is not in sync

Mark: if you wanted to talk about the person 'Ben' in example 6.1, you could add <p about='http://ben.adida.net'>

<Steven> Oh, I see; OK I agree

Mark: anonymous nodes don't have any significance to HTML authors

Steven: I posted an example to the HTML WG that I thought explained this
... e.g. referring to a table of contents document that does not yet exist

Ralph: I can't imagine a case where it would be bad for nodes to have identifiers

Mark: I'm not suggesting that all nodes should have identifiers

Steven: this might undermine the URL mechanism

Mark: the difference is that in HTML the fragment identifier refers to a part of a document but in RDF the interpretation would be a node

ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID)

Ralph: Ralph: What's the schedule for this new XHTML document in W3 space?

Mark: Mark: it requires some rewriting

Ralph: is http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html a copy of the October RDF-A document?

Mark: yes

Ralph: can the RDF-A module be made part of XHTML2 in such a way that it can be normatively referenced within XHTML2 spec and still reusable by other non-HTML vocabularies?

Mark: good idea; I will think about it

Ralph: Another possible path is to combine RDF/A and metainformation module prose
... an HTML author needs this to make sense to them
... pieces of RDF/A formalism interspersed can be included

Mark: Mark: earlier drafts did just that (beginner's guide to triples)
... HTML authors have been using LINK and META for years. This new approach is easy to understand.

Ralph: Ralph: we're so close; some formalisms are important and we can educate people

GRDDL

Ben: we'll continue to look for feedback from TomB and Gavin
... Creative Commons really wants people to use the RDF/A mechanism in HTML4 and XHTML1
... but we don't want this to delay the XHTML2 work at all

Mark: the only missing feature for the Creative Commons example is qnames
... the about attribute is new and 'name' became 'property' within meta but the CC examples don't use these

Ben: if XHTML1 with the RDF/A Creative Commons example can be validated, that's what we'd like
... Creative Commons would like an HTML4 solution that looks a lot like the XHTML2 solution

Ralph: the whole of GRDDL may not necessary for a number of use cases
... if we can't find anyone who needs the whole thing

Ralph: if we cannot find a community who wants the full generalization of GRDDL perhaps the specific subset of the RDF-A/XHTML2 solution that can be made to work in HTML4 is an approach more acceptable to implementors?

Ben: even if GRDDL is determined not to be essential to RDF-in-XHTML, I believe it could be useful to other Semantic Web applications and the SWBPD WG may still wish to consider it

next meeting 26 April

Summary of Action Items

ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases)
[NEW]
ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID)
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action09]
ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action05]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
[DONE]
ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action06]

 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2005/04/12 16:04:16 $