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Minutes of 29 March 2004 TAG teleconference
Nearby: IRC log | Teleconference details ·
issues list (handling new
issues)· www-tag
archive
1. Administrative (15min)
- Roll call. SW, TBL, DC, NW, RF, MJ, CL, IJ. Regrets: PC
- Resolved to accept the minutes of the 22 Mar teleconference
Action IJ: Remove a side comment per SW's
suggestion
- Accepted this agenda
- Next meeting: 5 April. No meeting 12 April.
1.1 May ftf meeting
- See meeting page
- Action IJ: Look for more advice from W3C
Team on suggested hotels.
2. Technical (75min)
See also open
actions by owner and open
issues.
2.1 Top Level Domains used as filters (.xxx, .mobile, etc.)
See email
from Danny Weitzner and email about timing
expectations.
- [timbl]
- .xxx and .mobile
- [Ian]
- SW: Why did DJW bring this to us?
- DC: He suspects this is a bad idea and he thinks that if the TAG says
it's a bad idea, that might have an impact.
- [timbl]
- Economic arguments
- Architectural problems - putting info into a URL
- Social manageability
- [Ian]
- DC: There's a comment period open right now (so some
time-sensitivity)
- [Chris]
- no - blocking .sex does not block all sex sites. finding them is no
easier.
- [Ian]
- DC: I think that the market will cause this to fail.
- [Chris]
- .tv is actually a country code
- [Ian]
- DC: E.g., only a few hundred ".tv" domains.
- [mario]
- More on the topic: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2461340
- [Chris]
- but yes it is sold as a novelty for television
- [timbl]
- Persistence decreased by arbitrary boundaries
- Device Independence reduced
- [Ian]
- DC: Subdividing internet doesn't scale. If you have .mobile and .sex,
what do you about sex for mobile devices?
- [Chris]
- However there is no requirement to have only television stuff under
.tv for example
- [Ian]
- TBL: If you have .travel, then assume that you'll have a "dot" for
every rubrique in the yellow pages. If you follow Kant, you end up
dividing up the Web. You are imposing a centralized ontology. We could
write a book on why that won't work. We could document the fact that
the Web only worked because it DOES NOT have that. There are a number
of systems pre-dating the Web that didn't work because people didn't
agree with the ontologies of others. Some arch problems: persistence
degrades. E.g., as a resource becomes more general, information will be
moved out of a ".mobile" domain. Similarly, some information may be
labeled adult and then later non-adult (e.g., "articles" in Playboy
<wink>). There are philosophical arguments - who defines what is
"mobile"? what is "porn"?: We've been through a huge discussion on
this. PICS is the result of this discussion. Some people are happy to
be labeled xxx, but others (larger group) that don't want to be labeled
xxx but others want to label them as xxx - trying to manage this
internationally is very difficult. E.g., dewey decimal system does not
scale to the size of the Web.
- [Stuart]
- http://www.icann.org/tlds/stld-apps-19mar04/xxx.htm
- [Ian]
- TBL: (1) persistence (2) social unmanageability (3) economic
argument. People have paid a lot for domain real-estate. By creating a
new TLD you are changing the zoning. You may have to buy hundreds of
domain names all of a sudden. Thus, these proposals make it tough to
maintain a trademark, and add cost to businesses as well as destabilize
the DNS.
- [Zakim]
- Chris, you wanted to talk about .mobile, and about the cultural
relativity of 'obscene'
- [Ian]
- CL: I agree about the cultural relativity argument. There are lots of
mobile companies pushing for this. Designed for profit.
- [timbl]
- +1
- [Ian]
- CL: Their proposal says that "The Web is for desktops." Which is very
dangerous.
- [DanC]
- ah; that's a comment I could endorse: "the .mobile proposal is
misinformed"
- [Ian]
- DC: Yes, let's please send that comment.
- [timbl]
- +1 to problems with "the web is for desktops" argument!
- [Zakim]
- mario, you wanted to note that also TLDs like .ag for public owned
companies are not accepted that much by the marked. Additionally,
people are not awaiting finding company related information at e.g.
sap.ag the first place. Normally, these domains are just seconding a
.com one.
- [timbl]
- It flies in the face of device independence
- [Chris]
- similar .assoc.fr for example
- and .tm.fr
- [Ian]
- MJ: Market shows reluctance to accept special domains for first
domain name in the market. Something like .ag is often used as a
secondary domain; usually people use .com anyway.
- [DanC]
- (I'm confused about how for-profit TLDs ever got on the map)
- [Chris]
- http://www.pepsi.tm.fr/
- exact same as http://www.pepsi.fr/
- [DanC]
- bifurcation.
- [Chris]
- although getting a raw .fr is very hard because you have to show you
are a french company
- [Ian]
- DC: I'd like CL to pursue the mobile question, whatever we do. E.g.,
CL writes three paras, the TAG endorses. I'd like CL to send this to
the official comments list forthwith.
- [Stuart]
- http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3675.txt
- [Ian]
- SW: At end of RFC3675, Donald recommends rating services (PICS)
- [DanC]
- (wow... it's not easy at all to find the comment target email
address)
- ah... http://forum.icann.org/mtg-cmts/stld-rfp-comments/general/index.html
- [Chris]
- If i have an action, can it be crisply stated so that it can be
closed when i have done it?
- draft to www-tag and send to (wherever) is ok as an action
- [Ian]
- DC: "Public comment period begins 31 March" (ends 30 April)
- [DanC]
- "A public comment period will begin 31 March 2004, 23:59 UTC and will
last for one month. Comments will be posted in a web-based forum.
Instructions will be published when the comment period opens." -- http://www.icann.org/announcements/announcement1-26mar04.htm
- [Stuart]
- http://www.icann.org/announcements/announcement-19mar04.htm
- [Ian]
- Action CL: Send a draft to www-tag
explaining why the .mobile proposal is misinformed. If the TAG supports
the proposal, send to ICANN on the official mailing list.
- [Ian]
- CL: Should we follow up on other topics like .sex?
- TBL: I think it would be appropriate for the TAG to get into the
technology and society area. For instance, to get into the arguments
discussed when PICS was developed - e.g., centralized categories are
socially unacceptable. This was the argument behind distributed
whitelist/blacklists. Do we think it's out of scope for the TAG because
it's too societal?
- DC: I think in scope. Just not inspired.
- TBL: Could we endorse something that DJW has written up.
- DC: Yes, though I would have to see it first.
- TBL: Can we ask DJW to address the filtering issue if we address the
device-independence issue?
- SW: Yes, the TAG could, after review, endorse something that Danny
has proposed.
- TBL: We could publish something small that points to text (or take it
over).
Action IJ: Talk to DJW about sending a
proposal to the TAG (focusing on social issues) that the TAG could
review and possibly endorse.
2.2 Web Architecture Document Last Call
Resources:
- Last Call
issues list (sorted by
section)
- Annotated
version of WebArch
- Archive of public-webarch-comments
- List of
actions by TAG participant
- Additional actions
- Action IJ 2004/02/09: Incorporate editorial suggestions (see
minutes of that meeting for details).
Actions 2004/03/15 (due 25 March?) to review sections: No progress
today
- TBL: I volunteer 2 hours starting at start of section 2
- Roy: I volunteer to look at section 2
- Norm: I volunteer for section 3
- Stuart: I volunteer starting at section 2.3
- Mario: I will look at section 4
Agenda:
- If people have sent comments per above actions, we will review those
comments.
- We will look at comments with broad impact, such as those from Pat
Hayes
- We will continue our backwards walk through the document.
- [Ian]
- Pat
Hayes comments
- [Meaning of key terms like identifier, resource,
representation]
- SW: I agree that we use "identify" in both sense. I was sympathetic
to his comments.
- DC: This is the "myth of names and addresses" Get used to it.
- RF: If you look in the dictionary, the term has both definitions. We
are using in the descriptive sense (in which both meanings are
legit).
- [Norm]
- +1
- [Ian]
- NW: I was sympathetic to PH's arguments for many years then decided
that's not the way the world is, so time to move on.
- [DanC]
- (I haven't read his comments very closely, but based on Stuart's
summary, I've heard similar arguments many^7 times)
- [Ian]
- TBL: I think PH has hit on description of the semantic Web. By
confusing his meanings C and D, we create the Web. That's the Web.
That's what makes the Web the Web.
- RF: I agree with TBL on that.
- TBL: PH's first sentence includes the word "conflict". I think he's
binding it to disjoint sets in his mind (in his own ontology).
- SW: Some assertions that we make in our good practice notes, he
asserts, make good sense in one world, but are crazy/meaningless in the
other world.
- [Zakim]
- Ian, you wanted to mention another issue about people/agents
- [DanC]
- (people/agents: asked and answered, no? action timbl)
- [Chris]
- I think most text on agents was written without considering that
agent might include person
- [Ian]
- IJ: My point is not to define "agent" in another way, only that
people have commented that some GPNs don't make sense for all
types.
- Issues manola6, parsia7, parsia14, manola17, manola23, i18nwg16
- [DanC]
- manola6 is asking about "user agent", not "agent"
- [Ian]
- DC: I thought we said "Do so at your own risk."
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20031209/#uri-opacity
- DC: I suggest changing to "do so at their own risk."
- TBL: What about "have no license to"
- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/lc1209/issues.html#i18nwg16
- DC: I think this makes sense for people and software; could use some
editorial fixing.
DC Proposal: Adjourn and work on actions during next 30 minutes.
[Discussions of action items]
- IJ: I expect to do editorial work, tracking.
- CL: [IJ missed]
- SW: I shall be reviewing section 2.3 issues
- NW: I shall be looking over section 3
- MJ: I will be helping CL with section 4. [And sending comments to
public-webarch-comments]
- DC: I need to mull over PH comments, respond to Kopecky
- TBL: Follow up with David Booth
RF: Section 2, finish draft of URI spec this week.
The TAG did not discuss issues below this line.
2.3 Review of open action items related to issues
The TAG expects to review the list of open actions by
owner and to close any that are obvious to close. TAG participants are
encouraged to review this list before the meeting, as well as other action
items listed in this agenda.
3. Status report on these findings
See also TAG findings
4. Other action items
- Action PC/IJ: Proposed revised TAG charter
- Action RF 2003/10/08: Explain "identifies" in RFC 2396.
- Action DC 2003/11/15: Follow up on KeepPOSTRecords with Janet Daly on
how to raise awareness of this point (which is in CUAP).
- Action CL 2003/10/27: Draft XML mime type thingy with Murata-san
Ian Jacobs for Stuart Williams and TimBL
Last modified: $Date: 2004/03/29 22:39:40 $