IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-08-27
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:16:04 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:17:15 [rscano]
- sobig strikes back :)
- 14:17:57 [rscano]
- tell w3c mail admin to put a filter that kill the messages with .pif attachments greather than 10 Kb...
- 14:19:24 [wendy]
- smiley face is not a unicode character, it is a wingding.
- 14:19:38 [wendy]
- up to 32 are control codes.
- 14:21:54 [ChrisR]
- ASCII link: http://www.evergreen.edu/biophysics/technotes/program/ascii_std.htm
- 14:22:04 [wendy]
- ben found blogging tool (B2) that has pattern recognition. if use emoticon it converts into icon. you can add your own alt-text. default are the ascii characters.
- 14:24:23 [bcaldwell]
- http://cafelog.com/ B2 - PHP and MySQL tool that automatically converts emoticons (site is down at the moment due to a patent protest)
- 14:27:15 [wendy]
- ===
- 14:27:15 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#frames
- 14:27:51 [wendy]
- frame titles: this technique is use title attribute of frame. section 508 says can do that, but to use the title element in the frame document.
- 14:28:23 [wendy]
- have to load the other doc before get the title.
- 14:28:37 [wendy]
- if a title attribute, jaws will read as cycle among frames.
- 14:29:06 [wendy]
- if title in doc, will read that next. thus, only need one or the other?
- 14:29:43 [wendy]
- what about other asst. techs?
- 14:30:24 [wendy]
- to pass 508, could use first H1.
- 14:31:02 [wendy]
- look at user agent support issues and come back to?
- 14:31:32 [wendy]
- use title on frame and frameset? or just frame?
- 14:33:10 [wendy]
- title on frameset like summary on layout table. since thinking has shifted away from summaries on layout tables, likely shift away from title on frameset as well.
- 14:33:27 [wendy]
- ===
- 14:33:30 [wendy]
- longdesc for frames
- 14:33:49 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#frame_longdesc
- 14:33:56 [wendy]
- anyone seen it used? (longdesc on frame)
- 14:35:47 [wendy]
- (looking for longdesc on frames, found: http://www.csusm.edu/adapt/process/04_section_508.htm)
- 14:35:57 [wendy]
- like the "flicker" checkpoint: "disco?"
- 14:36:21 [wendy]
- an optional technique?
- 14:37:05 [wendy]
- user agent support for longdesc?
- 14:44:20 [wendy]
- ===
- 14:44:21 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#frames_html
- 14:44:33 [wendy]
- another markup language (smil or svg) should be acceptable.
- 14:46:46 [wendy]
- what about two frames, one has list of links that cause image to show in another frame. if the links are descriptive enough (alt-text like), then the info is there.
- 14:47:21 [wendy]
- will people start using svg, smil, and other things in frame? frame seems to be not used as much anymore.
- 14:49:00 [wendy]
- use an accessible frame source (markup) or use good links. 2 techniques?
- 14:50:11 [wendy]
- 2 - one that would basically link to other techniques documents. the other an example of good links and frames.
- 14:50:34 [wendy]
- but, don't spend too much time on since frames don't seem to be as widely used.
- 14:51:09 [wendy]
- action: wac draft proposal for frame source techniques (1 for accessible frame markup, 1 for good links ala alt-text)
- 14:51:26 [wendy]
- ===
- 14:51:26 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#frame_popup
- 14:51:52 [wendy]
- examples about pop-up windows, but frame targets is a different usage.
- 14:52:17 [wendy]
- images example just discussed is an example of.
- 14:52:51 [wendy]
- some people like frames, b/c divides navigation into a separate "window" that can easily be navigated over.
- 14:53:37 [wendy]
- frame targets: does focus follow?
- 14:54:42 [wendy]
- action: michael test if focus follows changes in frame target
- 14:55:42 [wendy]
- targeting diff frame in frameset or new window. are the issues the same? or differences that we want to cover.
- 14:56:15 [wendy]
- test: HPR does begin reading in correct place when a diff frame in frameset is targeted.
- 14:56:33 [wendy]
- (ben just did the test - found that it does begin reading in the correct spot)
- 14:57:00 [wendy]
- did you know that it changed? did you want it to change?
- 14:57:56 [wendy]
- UA has to inform you that you are in a frameset. HPR said, in a new page and began reading it. but didn't know if loaded into current frame or a diff frame. to go back to navigate, hit back or tab to nav frame?
- 14:59:41 [wendy]
- checklist item: how is it acceptable to inform the user? (refer to discussion about link targets) is the issue the same as w/link targets?
- 14:59:51 [wendy]
- a link technique rather than frame technique
- 15:00:18 [wendy]
- become legacy techniques, since depends on user agent.
- 15:00:27 [wendy]
- jaws will tell you when open a new window.
- 15:00:40 [wendy]
- it says "you've gone to frame 3 of 3" you can easily navigate between frames.
- 15:00:49 [wendy]
- should also be true of window eyes.
- 15:00:56 [wendy]
- (need to verify)
- 15:01:29 [wendy]
- thus, deprecate this technique.
- 15:01:30 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:01:40 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#frames_css
- 15:02:37 [wendy]
- remove?
- 15:02:48 [rscano]
- yep
- 15:03:03 [wendy]
- agreed: remove this b/c too forward looking and ideas not supported.
- 15:03:28 [wendy]
- in place of: server-side template systems or xslt to achieve the same kind of thing.
- 15:03:58 [wendy]
- if frames good to encapsulate navigation, that no longer the case.
- 15:04:21 [wendy]
- put a note in intro - may want to consider other approaches to frames.
- 15:04:33 [wendy]
- other techniques elsewhere could link to resources.
- 15:04:45 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:05:24 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#noframes
- 15:05:42 [wendy]
- the noframes content should include accessible html and should not include "your browser does not support frames"
- 15:05:50 [wendy]
- use valid content of noframes
- 15:06:02 [wendy]
- it should not be empty.
- 15:06:19 [wendy]
- which tools don't support frames?
- 15:06:27 [wendy]
- many pda browsers don't.
- 15:06:52 [wendy]
- do any magnification technologies get rid of frames/
- 15:06:53 [wendy]
- ?
- 15:07:24 [wendy]
- thus, an accessibility issue?
- 15:07:33 [wendy]
- what does emacspeak do?
- 15:08:23 [wendy]
- similar to old lynx: a link to each frame as well as noframes
- 15:09:50 [wendy]
- opera for small screens. doesn't seem to support noframes.
- 15:10:02 [wendy]
- 2 options: remove the technique or mark as deprecated/legacy.
- 15:10:07 [wendy]
- or to keep
- 15:10:47 [wendy]
- one opinion: if use frames, should use noframes.
- 15:11:19 [wendy]
- (reiteration of opinion) popularity of frames seems to be waning, thus if choose to use frames use noframes.
- 15:15:02 [wendy]
- we've only tested english technologies, what about support in other languages?
- 15:15:54 [wendy]
- if use noframes, can be so much more useful than links to frames.
- 15:19:55 [bcaldwell]
- q- Dave_MacDonald
- 15:20:19 [wendy]
- leave undeprecated for now. add a description.
- 15:21:09 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:21:10 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#tab_order
- 15:21:17 [wendy]
- already discussed tabindex and accesskey
- 15:21:33 [wendy]
- august 13 meeting
- 15:21:48 [wendy]
- tabindex: future technique. need to log UA issues.
- 15:22:09 [wendy]
- accesskey: future. log UA issues.
- 15:22:09 [wendy]
- Ben has action items to test
- 15:22:39 [wendy]
- defer discussion until ben has tested.
- 15:24:35 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:24:37 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#fieldset
- 15:25:47 [wendy]
- support for fieldset and legend?
- 15:26:16 [wendy]
- IE, Opera, Moz, Jaws
- 15:26:34 [wendy]
- IE and Moz - visual rendering.
- 15:26:58 [wendy]
- jaws - read label once for group or once for each control in the group?
- 15:27:09 [wendy]
- need to test.
- 15:29:56 [wendy]
- would like to collect or link to all of the test files that people ar eusing to test.
- 15:30:04 [wendy]
- link to from "resources" with each technique.
- 15:30:36 [wendy]
- or link to it from the example
- 15:31:18 [wendy]
- if test file is a local file, send it and we will publish. if on the web, send the uri.
- 15:35:12 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:35:13 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#optgroup
- 15:36:39 [wendy]
- sometimes ok to have long list (w/out groups) if that's what people are used to. e.g., selecting a state from a list of the 50 u.s. states.
- 15:37:09 [wendy]
- aert discussed 7 +- 2
- 15:38:20 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:38:24 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#form_label
- 15:39:18 [wendy]
- 5 min break
- 15:39:19 [Zakim]
- -Dave_MacDonald
- 15:39:29 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Scano
- 15:47:46 [Zakim]
- +Dave_MacDonald
- 15:49:41 [rscano]
- i stay only in irc now... poor signal
- 15:52:24 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:52:24 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Ben, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Dave_MacDonald
- 15:53:57 [rscano]
- i stay in irc
- 16:01:21 [wendy]
- in text: explicit label. what that means.
- 16:01:49 [wendy]
- 2 techniques. achieve same thing. how does the author decide which to choose?
- 16:02:10 [wendy]
- choose title b/c easier.
- 16:02:54 [wendy]
- sometimes can't provide label element.
- 16:03:00 [wendy]
- title only way to do.
- 16:03:37 [wendy]
- example: tabular layout. check those that you want to order. label by column header.
- 16:03:55 [wendy]
- (having a hard time imagining that example)
- 16:06:45 [wendy]
- ===
- 16:06:45 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#graphical_button
- 16:07:14 [wendy]
- drop it. handled in images section.
- 16:07:46 [wendy]
- make sure no info presented here that is not also presented above. if new info here, incorporate above somehow.
- 16:08:43 [wendy]
- attach keywords to techniques? i.e. elements. search by "form" and find these techniques as well.
- 16:09:31 [wendy]
- ===
- 16:09:33 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#empty_control
- 16:09:45 [wendy]
- agreed to drop this one.
- 16:10:26 [wendy]
- transition from 1.0 to 2.0? those who have done this should undo it?
- 16:11:56 [wendy]
- mark as deprecated and describe some of the issues it is causing.
- 16:12:25 [wendy]
- deprecated vs legacy. this is an example of deprecated.
- 16:12:56 [wendy]
- action: ben propose text for "place-holding characters in empty controls" technique
- 16:13:29 [wendy]
- ===
- 16:13:31 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html#submit_button
- 16:13:41 [wendy]
- (for previous: need the WCAG 1.0 errata proposal from michael)
- 16:14:05 [wendy]
- reword: use the alt attribute... provide a description
- 16:14:10 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 16:14:10 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Ben, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Dave_MacDonald (muted)
- 16:14:36 [wendy]
- michael will make the edits throughout the doc
- 16:15:06 [wendy]
- ===
- 16:22:13 [wendy]
- next week gateway techniques:
- 16:22:19 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-GATEWAY-20030723.html
- 16:22:38 [wendy]
- questions:
- 16:22:40 [wendy]
- 1. editorial notes
- 16:22:57 [wendy]
- 2. checkpoints that don't have any techniques - what should go there?
- 16:23:14 [wendy]
- 3. how to link to other techniques documents
- 16:25:48 [wendy]
- next week 2 hour call.
- 16:27:59 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 16:28:00 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 16:28:01 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 16:28:02 [Zakim]
- -Dave_MacDonald
- 16:28:04 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 16:28:05 [rellero]
- Bye!
- 16:28:05 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 16:28:06 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 16:28:06 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 16:28:10 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
- I see 3 open action items:
- 16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac draft proposal for frame source techniques (1 for accessible frame markup, 1 for good links ala alt-text) [1]
- 16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/27-wai-wcag-irc#T14-51-09
- 16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael test if focus follows changes in frame target [2]
- 16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/27-wai-wcag-irc#T14-54-42
- 16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben propose text for "place-holding characters in empty controls" technique [3]
- 16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/27-wai-wcag-irc#T16-12-56