See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: John Kemp
<scribe> ScribeNick: johnk
<ht> HST will chair (scribe note-- on the 19th)
<ht> It will be short
<ht> Yes, with help from DanC, I hope
NM: preparing agenda for next F2F
<ht> Confirm f2f is 8--10, right?
<scribe> ACTION: noah to check logistics for December F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-333 - Check logistics for December F2F [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-11-19].
NM: no TAG meeting on 26th Nov due to US Thanksgiving
<DanC> (did Ashok confirm scribing next week?)
<Ashok> No, but I can do so now
NM: have our issues been raised adequately with HTML WG, or do we need further TAG follow-up?
... three issues
... language on use of text/html media type
<ht> HST is tracking the text/html == polyglot doc issue
NM: are we happy with progress?
ht: I'm happy unless my action to track raises a further issue
<trackbot> ACTION-309 -- Henry S. Thompson to henry to bring back proposed TAG pushback on sniffing and HTTP bis draft http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/export/663/draft-ietf-httpbis/latest/p3-payload.html, or his recommendation that we leave it alone -- due 2009-11-18 -- OPEN
NM: Larry's issue was regarding whether previous versions of HTML were covered by the media type registration associated with HTML5
<DanC> (hixie pointed to 1.4, IIRC)
NM: Hixie suggested current text met this issue
... Larry pushed back
danc: TimBL had a slightly different, but related issue
NM: perhaps better to schedule it for F2F?
I agree, since I haven't had time to look at this issue
NM: text that we would find in HTML editors draft is what they plan to use?
danc: would like to find any resolution to the recorded issue
NM: we could take it to email?
<DanC> . ACTION victim: raise html/media type registration [slow down so somebody can type]
<scribe> ACTION: henry to start an email thread regarding the treatment of pre-HTML5 versions in the media type registration text of HTML5 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-334 - Start an email thread regarding the treatment of pre-HTML5 versions in the media type registration text of HTML5 [on Henry S. Thompson - due 2009-11-19].
NM: second issue - microdata - assume that current action is sufficient?
<DanC> microdata bug
NM: Henry opened a bug at the TAG F2F after substantive discussion (8220) linked from agenda
... third issue - data-* attributes
... should data-* attributes be retained in HTML?
... we have new information from the WG as to why they are included in HTML
NM (after discussion with the WG)
ht: my understanding is that data-* is there to allow people to get stuff into the DOM for their own purposes
NM: that may be it's intended use, but it would be easy enough to use it in the same way that microdata could be used
ht: that is a criticism of the general concept of distributed extensibility
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to speak to "local", author-defined stuff vs global
danc: there are things like the 'class' attribute
... I don't have to agree with anybody what that "means"
I just got booted off the phone call
and for some reason calling again is failing
<noahm> DC: In the beginning, the class attribute was for the author's own purposes (and I was happy)
<noahm> DC: Nobody else had to agree to it. Then things like microformates poached on that, inviting tools to give a global interpretation, e.g. per VCard
OK, I'm back
<noahm> DC: This then says that, for private use, you can get anything except things like VEvent, VCard. Think I've heard Ian Hickson suggest you search the Web globally for conflicts.
<noahm> DC: There were things that you only ascribed meaning to at your own risk. HTML WG seems to say the same.
<jar_> yes, this is a classic binding/use matching problem...
<noahm> DC: That does not directly compete with RDFa; different use cases. It competes with the situation where data-* migrates into something like microformats.
<noahm> DC: That said, do I think data-* does more harm than good? Hmmm.
<noahm> DC: I guess I'd leave it to the HTML WG.
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to say the extensibility is better than data-
ht: you can say that data-* is an ad-hoc partial solution to extensibility and we'd like a better one
<Zakim> noahm, you wanted to talk about small vs. big solutions.
NM: would be some merit is saying that a full general extensibility solution would cover this
... data-* is more limited but likely easier to use than a more general solution
... easy DOM accessors available which might not be for more general mechanisms
<noahm> NM: for its intended purposes
DC: something better would not involve global co-ordination
<jar_> until 19:55 CEST
DC: intended use-case is "I don't have to coordinate with anybody"
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to say that something uri-based is worse than data-* for its intended purpose in that it involves global coordination
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to reply to DanC
<jar_> (minutes editor: the "until ..." can obviously be deleted, as can this)
HT: I think we agree (DanC) but URI minting doesn't involve spinning up a new server
... not worried about name collisions because it's for my private use
DC: example.org is not yours to choose, for example
<DanC> ("non-unique-data-names.org" _is_ global coordination, still.)
NM: example.com use is not the only problem, and could be solved by registering the name
... proposals about this issue?
<DanC> +0 to conveying our earlier resolution; I nominate Henry to do it.
NM: I'd like to put before the group a new resolution to override the previous resolution
HT: I'm happy to postpone this until the more general situation around namespaces is clearer
I agree with that FWIW
NM: propose to do what Henry said - change our resolution to say that we will reconsider data-* as we learn more about distributed extensibility in HTML
<DanC> (process wonk note: all this discussion was out of order if our earlier decision stands; it was vacated when we started discussion. )
HT: I would prefer to put this on the F2F
<DanC> . ACTION: Dan remind us about data-* after dust on distributed extensibility has settled
<noahm> Proposed resolution: The TAG, for now, withdraws its intention to request removal of data-*, but intends to revisit as the distributed extensbility story becomes clearer
NM: I would like to be informed by the group before I make this resolution
<DanC> either (a) all this was advice to the chair re whether to reconsider (vacate) our earlier decision, or (b) the chair accepted the new information was sufficient to reconsider the earlier decision
<noahm> (c) the chair, informed by this discussion, will not convey a TAG decision on data-* until we have time to review today's analyis with Tim & Dan @F2F
<DanC> ACTION: Dan remind us about data-* after dust on distributed extensibility has settled [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Remind us about data-* after dust on distributed extensibility has settled [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-11-19].
<noahm> (c) the chair, informed by this discussion, will not convey a TAG decision on data-* until either a) we have new information on dist. extensibility in HTML 5 or b) some WG member requests an agenda item
<noahm> Informally agreed.
<DanC> maybe not "dust has settled", but just "technical progress is available"
<DanC> action-335 due 2009-01-01
<trackbot> ACTION-335 Remind us about data-* after dust on distributed extensibility has settled due date now 2009-01-01
NM: feel that our progress on distributed extensibility was also unfinished
DC: would like to hear about two relevant actions
<trackbot> ACTION-313 -- John Kemp to talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize -- due 2009-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<noahm> NM: in particular, do we have clear next steps or agreement not to do anything fo now.
<DanC> (the other is ACTION-327 , Henry)
<noahm> JK: Yes, I talked to 2-3 people who went to Balisage. Sense I got was that Liam made a presentation, there was discussion, no action after that.
<noahm> JK: These people were people mostly from the XML community.
<noahm> JK: I marked the action pending review.
<DanC> for indexing purposes:
<trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- Tag soup integration -- OPEN
I note that there has been discussed of Liam's doc in HTML WG
<trackbot> ACTION-327 -- Henry S. Thompson to review Microsoft's namespaces in HTML 5 proposal -- due 2009-11-13 -- OPEN
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0334.html (Liam's message to HTML)
<noahm> HT: I'm tempted to noodle on proposals that prebind prefixes rather than the default namespace.
<noahm> The problem with fixing just prefixes is that it doesn't help much with the <mosaic:img> --> <img> evolution. Otherwise, I think it may be the right thing.
NM: do we want to assign actions on Liam's doc?
<trackbot> ACTION-313 Talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize closed
<noahm> NM: OK, we're closing 313. For now ACTION-327 is our only scheduled followup on distributed extensibility.
NM: there is larger question of spreadsheet containing potential HTML issues
<DanC> ACTION-330: take a look the review topics spreadsheet
<trackbot> ACTION-330 Prepare Dec f2f agenda in collaboration with Noah etc. notes added
NM: would like to focus on other two themes
... arch of web apps
... and metadata
DC: reified major themes as 'products' in tracker
... HTML5 review
... grouped some under issues
<DanC> ACTION-277: about patent policy
<trackbot> ACTION-277 Ensure any issue is resolved with Art notes added
(reviewing action items linked from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/agenda)
<trackbot> ACTION-306 -- Larry Masinter to work with JK and AM to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings -- due 2009-12-01 -- OPEN
<noahm> From the unpublished mintes of Friday:
<noahm> <noahm> Ashok will help Raman frame the F2F agenda and preparation on Web Application Architecture
<noahm> <noahm> Ashok will frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata access
<noahm> <noahm> :Larry will frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata formats/representations
<ht> HST is leaving
<trackbot> ACTION-306 -- Ashok Malhotra to work with Raman, LM, JK to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings -- due 2009-12-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> ACTION-281 -- Ashok Malhotra to keep an eye on progress of link header draft, report to TAG, warn us of problems (ISSUE-62) -- due 2009-10-30 -- OPEN
<DanC> . ACTION Ashok: prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f
<DanC> ACTION: Ashok to prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2009-11-19].
<DanC> ACTION: Larry to frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata formats/representations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata formats/representations [on Larry Masinter - due 2009-11-19].
NM: eg. identify early reading people should be doing
... difficulty in using tracker lately has been people not keeping issues up to date
... works fine if you send email mentioning the tracker item
<DanC> (yeah, email that mentions the actions in tracker notation works best)
NM: use tracker!
... minuting from F2F - where are we?
... i) can we find authoritative logs?
... ii) who will format them?
<DanC> . ACTION Noah: format minutes 5 Nov
<noahm> ACTION: Noah to format Tim's minutes from 6 November base on his private copy of the log [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-338 - Format Tim's minutes from 6 November base on his private copy of the log [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-11-19].
<trackbot> ACTION-338 -- Noah Mendelsohn to send Tim's minutes from 6 November to Dan for formatting -- due 2009-11-19 -- OPEN
<DanC> and I sent you mail, noah