https://www.w3.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=FgandonW3C Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T08:41:50ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.41.0https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=MeetingTaxis&diff=78105MeetingTaxis2014-10-20T13:01:14Z<p>Fgandon: /* Meeting: TPAC Santa Clara */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:EswMeetings]]<br />
<br />
Use this '''Public''' page to help coordinate the sharing of taxis, shuttles, etc. for meetings.<br />
<br />
==Meeting: TPAC Santa Clara == <br />
''REMINDER: Please, put entries in chronological order.''<br />
<br />
'''ARRIVALS'''<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 11:00 || SJC || NH1076 || Santa Clara Marriott || Antonio Olmo Titos || antonio@w3.org || Not staying at the hotel the first day<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 13:00 || SFO || AF84 || Santa Clara Marriott || Raphael Troncy || raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr || Flight arrives 13:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 13:00 || SFO || DL8552 || Santa Clara Marriott || Erik Mannens || erik.mannens@ugent.be || Flight arrives 13:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 16:45 || SFO || DL4390 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeni Tennison || jeni@theodi.org || Flight arrives 16:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Nigel Megitt || nigel.megitt at bbc dot co dot uk || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Phil Archer || phila@w3.org || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Chris Lilley || chris@w3.org || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 12:45 || SJC || UA 6242 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeanne Spellman || jeanne@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 13:10 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Renoir Boulanger || renoir@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 13:10 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Bill Ingram || wingram2@illinois.edu || Flight arrives 13:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 15:45 || SFO || SK935 || Santa Clara Marriott || Wilhelm Joys Andersen || w@wja.no ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 16:20 || SFO || EI147 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin White || kevin@w3.org || Flight arrives 16:20;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 18:05 || SJC || Delta/SkyWest 4696 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ann Bassetti || ann.bassetti@boeing.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 18:50 || SFO || BA287 || Avatar Hotel Santa Clara || Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) || jeremy.tandy@gmail.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 27 Oct || 13:45 || SFO || KLM0605 || AirBnB near Santa Clara Marriot || Bart van Leeuwen || bart@netage.nl || I have a rental Car with room for 2 extra<br />
|- <br />
| 27 Oct || 13:45 || SFO || KLM0605 || Santa Clara Marriott || Fabien Gandon || fabien.gandon@inria.fr || could travel with Bart<br />
|- <br />
|}<br />
<br />
'''DEPARTURES'''<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| 30 Oct || 14:00 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Bill Ingram || wingram2@illinois.edu || Flight departs 14:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 30 Oct || 14:45 || SJC || Delta/Skywest 4725 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ann Bassetti || ann.bassetti@boeing.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 06:45 || SFO || AF2287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Raphael Troncy || raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr || Happily sharing the rented car by Kevin Fleming<br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 07:00 || SFO || B616 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin Fleming || kpfleming@bloomberg.net || Have a rental car with room for 2 or 3<br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 15:45 || SFO || KL606 || Santa Clara Marriott || Fabien Gandon || fabien.gandon@inria.fr || 15:45 is my flight time<br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 18:20 || SFO || EI146 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin White || kevin@w3.org || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 20:05 || SFO || DL4391 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeni Tennison || jeni@theodi.org || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 20:55 || SFO || BA286 || Avatar Hotel Santa Clara || Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) || jeremy.tandy@gmail.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 12:45 || SJC || NH0171 || Santa Clara Marriott || Antonio Olmo Titos || antonio@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 17:10 || SFO || BA284 || Santa Clara Marriott || Nigel Megitt || nigel.megitt at bbc dot co dot uk ||<br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 07:30 || SJC || DL4657 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ivan Herman || ivan@w3.org || Flight departs at 09:30<br />
|-<br />
| 2 Nov || 07:45 || SFO || DL1943 || Santa Clara Marriott || Erik Mannens || erik.mannens@ugent.be ||<br />
|-<br />
| 2 Nov || 17:30 || SFO || SK936 || Santa Clara Marriott || Wilhelm Joys Andersen || w@wja.no ||<br />
|-<br />
| 3 Nov || 14:15 || SFO || AA 2356 || will move to a AirBnb in SFO after TPAC || Renoir Boulanger || renoir@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| || || || || || || ||<br />
|-<br />
|}</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=MeetingTaxis&diff=78104MeetingTaxis2014-10-20T12:41:17Z<p>Fgandon: /* Meeting: TPAC Santa Clara */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:EswMeetings]]<br />
<br />
Use this '''Public''' page to help coordinate the sharing of taxis, shuttles, etc. for meetings.<br />
<br />
==Meeting: TPAC Santa Clara == <br />
''REMINDER: Please, put entries in chronological order.''<br />
<br />
'''ARRIVALS'''<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 11:00 || SJC || NH1076 || Santa Clara Marriott || Antonio Olmo Titos || antonio@w3.org || Not staying at the hotel the first day<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 13:00 || SFO || AF84 || Santa Clara Marriott || Raphael Troncy || raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr || Flight arrives 13:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 13:00 || SFO || DL8552 || Santa Clara Marriott || Erik Mannens || erik.mannens@ugent.be || Flight arrives 13:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 16:45 || SFO || DL4390 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeni Tennison || jeni@theodi.org || Flight arrives 16:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Nigel Megitt || nigel.megitt at bbc dot co dot uk || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Phil Archer || phila@w3.org || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Chris Lilley || chris@w3.org || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 12:45 || SJC || UA 6242 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeanne Spellman || jeanne@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 13:10 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Renoir Boulanger || renoir@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 13:10 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Bill Ingram || wingram2@illinois.edu || Flight arrives 13:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 15:45 || SFO || SK935 || Santa Clara Marriott || Wilhelm Joys Andersen || w@wja.no ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 16:20 || SFO || EI147 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin White || kevin@w3.org || Flight arrives 16:20;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 18:05 || SJC || Delta/SkyWest 4696 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ann Bassetti || ann.bassetti@boeing.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 18:50 || SFO || BA287 || Avatar Hotel Santa Clara || Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) || jeremy.tandy@gmail.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 27 Oct || 13:45 || SFO || KLM0605 || AirBnB near Santa Clara Marriot || Bart van Leeuwen || bart@netage.nl || I have a rental Car with room for 2 extra<br />
|- <br />
| 27 Oct || 13:45 || SFO || KLM0605 || Santa Clara Marriott || Fabien Gandon || fabien.gandon@inria.fr || could travel with Bart<br />
|- <br />
|}<br />
<br />
'''DEPARTURES'''<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| 30 Oct || 14:00 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Bill Ingram || wingram2@illinois.edu || Flight departs 14:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 30 Oct || 14:45 || SJC || Delta/Skywest 4725 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ann Bassetti || ann.bassetti@boeing.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 06:45 || SFO || AF2287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Raphael Troncy || raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr || Happily sharing the rented car by Kevin Fleming<br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 07:00 || SFO || B616 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin Fleming || kpfleming@bloomberg.net || Have a rental car with room for 2 or 3<br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 15:45 || SFO || KL606 || Santa Clara Marriott || Fabien Gandon || fabien.gandon@inria.fr || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 18:20 || SFO || EI146 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin White || kevin@w3.org || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 20:05 || SFO || DL4391 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeni Tennison || jeni@theodi.org || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 20:55 || SFO || BA286 || Avatar Hotel Santa Clara || Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) || jeremy.tandy@gmail.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 12:45 || SJC || NH0171 || Santa Clara Marriott || Antonio Olmo Titos || antonio@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 17:10 || SFO || BA284 || Santa Clara Marriott || Nigel Megitt || nigel.megitt at bbc dot co dot uk ||<br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 07:30 || SJC || DL4657 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ivan Herman || ivan@w3.org || Flight departs at 09:30<br />
|-<br />
| 2 Nov || 07:45 || SFO || DL1943 || Santa Clara Marriott || Erik Mannens || erik.mannens@ugent.be ||<br />
|-<br />
| 2 Nov || 17:30 || SFO || SK936 || Santa Clara Marriott || Wilhelm Joys Andersen || w@wja.no ||<br />
|-<br />
| 3 Nov || 14:15 || SFO || AA 2356 || will move to a AirBnb in SFO after TPAC || Renoir Boulanger || renoir@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| || || || || || || ||<br />
|-<br />
|}</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=MeetingTaxis&diff=78100MeetingTaxis2014-10-20T12:36:22Z<p>Fgandon: /* Meeting: TPAC Santa Clara */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:EswMeetings]]<br />
<br />
Use this '''Public''' page to help coordinate the sharing of taxis, shuttles, etc. for meetings.<br />
<br />
==Meeting: TPAC Santa Clara == <br />
''REMINDER: Please, put entries in chronological order.''<br />
<br />
'''ARRIVALS'''<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 11:00 || SJC || NH1076 || Santa Clara Marriott || Antonio Olmo Titos || antonio@w3.org || Not staying at the hotel the first day<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 13:00 || SFO || AF84 || Santa Clara Marriott || Raphael Troncy || raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr || Flight arrives 13:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 13:00 || SFO || DL8552 || Santa Clara Marriott || Erik Mannens || erik.mannens@ugent.be || Flight arrives 13:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 16:45 || SFO || DL4390 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeni Tennison || jeni@theodi.org || Flight arrives 16:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Nigel Megitt || nigel.megitt at bbc dot co dot uk || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Phil Archer || phila@w3.org || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 25 Oct || 18:00 || SFO || BA287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Chris Lilley || chris@w3.org || Flight arrives 17:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 12:45 || SJC || UA 6242 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeanne Spellman || jeanne@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 13:10 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Renoir Boulanger || renoir@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 13:10 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Bill Ingram || wingram2@illinois.edu || Flight arrives 13:10;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 15:45 || SFO || SK935 || Santa Clara Marriott || Wilhelm Joys Andersen || w@wja.no ||<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 16:20 || SFO || EI147 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin White || kevin@w3.org || Flight arrives 16:20;<br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 18:05 || SJC || Delta/SkyWest 4696 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ann Bassetti || ann.bassetti@boeing.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 26 Oct || 18:50 || SFO || BA287 || Avatar Hotel Santa Clara || Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) || jeremy.tandy@gmail.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 27 Oct || 13:45 || SFO || KLM0605 || AirBnB near Santa Clara Marriot || Bart van Leeuwen || bart@netage.nl || I have a rental Car with room for 2 extra<br />
|- <br />
| 27 Oct || 13:45 || SFO || KLM0605 || Santa Clara Marriott || Fabien Gandon || fabien.gandon@inria.fr || could travel with Bart<br />
|- <br />
|}<br />
<br />
'''DEPARTURES'''<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| 30 Oct || 14:00 || SJC || AA 1530 || Santa Clara Marriott || Bill Ingram || wingram2@illinois.edu || Flight departs 14:00;<br />
|-<br />
| 30 Oct || 14:45 || SJC || Delta/Skywest 4725 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ann Bassetti || ann.bassetti@boeing.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 06:45 || SFO || AF2287 || Santa Clara Marriott || Raphael Troncy || raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr || Happily sharing the rented car by Kevin Fleming<br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 07:00 || SFO || B616 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin Fleming || kpfleming@bloomberg.net || Have a rental car with room for 2 or 3<br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 18:20 || SFO || EI146 || Santa Clara Marriott || Kevin White || kevin@w3.org || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 20:05 || SFO || DL4391 || Santa Clara Marriott || Jeni Tennison || jeni@theodi.org || <br />
|-<br />
| 31 Oct || 20:55 || SFO || BA286 || Avatar Hotel Santa Clara || Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) || jeremy.tandy@gmail.com || <br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 12:45 || SJC || NH0171 || Santa Clara Marriott || Antonio Olmo Titos || antonio@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 17:10 || SFO || BA284 || Santa Clara Marriott || Nigel Megitt || nigel.megitt at bbc dot co dot uk ||<br />
|-<br />
| 1 Nov || 07:30 || SJC || DL4657 || Santa Clara Marriott || Ivan Herman || ivan@w3.org || Flight departs at 09:30<br />
|-<br />
| 2 Nov || 07:45 || SFO || DL1943 || Santa Clara Marriott || Erik Mannens || erik.mannens@ugent.be ||<br />
|-<br />
| 2 Nov || 17:30 || SFO || SK936 || Santa Clara Marriott || Wilhelm Joys Andersen || w@wja.no ||<br />
|-<br />
| 3 Nov || 14:15 || SFO || AA 2356 || will move to a AirBnb in SFO after TPAC || Renoir Boulanger || renoir@w3.org ||<br />
|-<br />
| || || || || || || ||<br />
|-<br />
|}</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dashboard&diff=72776Dashboard2014-04-04T14:43:47Z<p>Fgandon: /* Requirements */</p>
<hr />
<div>This wiki is about so-called ''dashboards'' where the use of ''dashboard'' is similar to a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashboard_(business) Business Dashboard] as defined by wikipedia.org.<br />
<br />
'''This document is very much a Work In Progress. Input from others is strong encouraged! If you are unable to directly edit this document, please send comments, feedback, etc. to the [mailto:public-w3process@w3.org public-w3process @ w3.org] mail list ([http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/ archive]).'''<br />
<br />
Open Actions and Issues for this document are tracked by the [https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/products/13 W3C's Tracker].<br />
<br />
SeeAlso:<br />
* [https://www.w3.org/wiki/Headlights2013/SiteRedesign/Proposal 2013 Site Redesign Proposal]<br />
<br />
<br />
== What do we mean by Dashboard? ==<br />
<br />
The basic idea of a ''dashboard'' is to provide at-a-glance views of a particular group or organization. The amount of detail in a dashboard varies considerably, depending on the purpose of the dashboard.<br />
<br />
== Examples of Dashboards in the W3C == <br />
<br />
* [http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Publications HTML WG Publications]<br />
* [http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ Semantic Web Activity (Statement]<br />
* [https://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/ W3C Groups and Activities]<br />
<br />
== Problem Statement ==<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for W3C Members to get an overview of the current status of existing groups such as their publication status, hot issues, etc.<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for AC Reps of large organizations to handle the combinatorics of matchmaking all the different groups (WG, CB, BG) and topics at W3C with the different groups and topics of their organization.<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for prospective Members to get an overview of the current status specific groups they might want to participate<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for other Standards Setting Organizations to get: a) an overview of the current status of specific groups; b) the status of specific specification(s) <br />
<br />
* Groups provide dashboard type information in various ways and having some consistency could be helpful<br />
<br />
* Milestones in Working Group charters typically become out-of-date soon after a charter is approved by the Director. In such cases, the WG should provide current status of the group's publication status (in some type of ''dashboard like'' style).<br />
<br />
== Types of Dashboards ==<br />
<br />
Within the Consortium, there different types of dashboards are needed:<br />
<br />
* Domains and/or Activity level<br />
<br />
* Working Groups<br />
<br />
* Interest Groups<br />
<br />
* Community Groups<br />
<br />
* Consortium wide<br />
<br />
== Use Cases == <br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to identify the all topics across the different groups and search groups by keywords<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current publication status of Working Group X<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current status of Domain Y<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current status of Community Group Z<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the impact of one given technology on Working Group roadmaps (or specific specifications)<br />
<br />
== Considerations ==<br />
<br />
* Target audience: AC reps, Members, prospective Members, Public, Group members<br />
<br />
* Cost: maintaining group-level dashboard takes Chair time<br />
<br />
== Requirements ==<br />
<br />
* It should be possible to search the groups and activities at least by keywords <br />
<br />
* It should be possible to retrieve a summary of activity for a domain, a working group, a task force, a community group, a business group. <br />
<br />
* The level of information should be structured with the following hierarchy<br />
**General summary of the activity (business driver, supporters)<br />
**Roadmap of the activity (major achievement, coming challenges, potential known blockers or imperative deadline)<br />
**List of deliverables<br />
** Summary of each deliverable (including purpose, problem solved, companies involved, associated product)<br />
<br />
* For each summary of activity the set of relevant references should be made available (e.g. wiki, mailing list, chair/staff contact/editors name)<br />
<br />
== Priorities ==<br />
<br />
* '''High''': each Working Group must have some type of dashboard that minimally includes the current status of all of the group's active specifications<br />
<br />
* '''High''': create a document/service that includes a link to all WG dashboards, possibly organized by Domains<br />
<br />
* Low: Consortium-wide dashboard<br />
<br />
== Potential Solutions ==<br />
<br />
* Add a link to each WG's dashboard to the [http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/ Canonical WG list service] (aka IPP page)</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dashboard&diff=72775Dashboard2014-04-04T14:42:42Z<p>Fgandon: /* Use Cases */</p>
<hr />
<div>This wiki is about so-called ''dashboards'' where the use of ''dashboard'' is similar to a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashboard_(business) Business Dashboard] as defined by wikipedia.org.<br />
<br />
'''This document is very much a Work In Progress. Input from others is strong encouraged! If you are unable to directly edit this document, please send comments, feedback, etc. to the [mailto:public-w3process@w3.org public-w3process @ w3.org] mail list ([http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/ archive]).'''<br />
<br />
Open Actions and Issues for this document are tracked by the [https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/products/13 W3C's Tracker].<br />
<br />
SeeAlso:<br />
* [https://www.w3.org/wiki/Headlights2013/SiteRedesign/Proposal 2013 Site Redesign Proposal]<br />
<br />
<br />
== What do we mean by Dashboard? ==<br />
<br />
The basic idea of a ''dashboard'' is to provide at-a-glance views of a particular group or organization. The amount of detail in a dashboard varies considerably, depending on the purpose of the dashboard.<br />
<br />
== Examples of Dashboards in the W3C == <br />
<br />
* [http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Publications HTML WG Publications]<br />
* [http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ Semantic Web Activity (Statement]<br />
* [https://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/ W3C Groups and Activities]<br />
<br />
== Problem Statement ==<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for W3C Members to get an overview of the current status of existing groups such as their publication status, hot issues, etc.<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for AC Reps of large organizations to handle the combinatorics of matchmaking all the different groups (WG, CB, BG) and topics at W3C with the different groups and topics of their organization.<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for prospective Members to get an overview of the current status specific groups they might want to participate<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for other Standards Setting Organizations to get: a) an overview of the current status of specific groups; b) the status of specific specification(s) <br />
<br />
* Groups provide dashboard type information in various ways and having some consistency could be helpful<br />
<br />
* Milestones in Working Group charters typically become out-of-date soon after a charter is approved by the Director. In such cases, the WG should provide current status of the group's publication status (in some type of ''dashboard like'' style).<br />
<br />
== Types of Dashboards ==<br />
<br />
Within the Consortium, there different types of dashboards are needed:<br />
<br />
* Domains and/or Activity level<br />
<br />
* Working Groups<br />
<br />
* Interest Groups<br />
<br />
* Community Groups<br />
<br />
* Consortium wide<br />
<br />
== Use Cases == <br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to identify the all topics across the different groups and search groups by keywords<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current publication status of Working Group X<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current status of Domain Y<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current status of Community Group Z<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the impact of one given technology on Working Group roadmaps (or specific specifications)<br />
<br />
== Considerations ==<br />
<br />
* Target audience: AC reps, Members, prospective Members, Public, Group members<br />
<br />
* Cost: maintaining group-level dashboard takes Chair time<br />
<br />
== Requirements ==<br />
<br />
* It should be possible to retrieve a summary of activity for a domain, a working group, a task force, a community group, a business group. <br />
<br />
* The level of information should be structured with the following hierarchy<br />
**General summary of the activity (business driver, supporters)<br />
**Roadmap of the activity (major achievement, coming challenges, potential known blockers or imperative deadline)<br />
**List of deliverables<br />
** Summary of each deliverable (including purpose, problem solved, companies involved, associated product)<br />
<br />
* For each summary of activity the set of relevant references should be made available (e.g. wiki, mailing list, chair/staff contact/editors name)<br />
<br />
== Priorities ==<br />
<br />
* '''High''': each Working Group must have some type of dashboard that minimally includes the current status of all of the group's active specifications<br />
<br />
* '''High''': create a document/service that includes a link to all WG dashboards, possibly organized by Domains<br />
<br />
* Low: Consortium-wide dashboard<br />
<br />
== Potential Solutions ==<br />
<br />
* Add a link to each WG's dashboard to the [http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/ Canonical WG list service] (aka IPP page)</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dashboard&diff=72774Dashboard2014-04-04T14:39:09Z<p>Fgandon: /* Problem Statement */</p>
<hr />
<div>This wiki is about so-called ''dashboards'' where the use of ''dashboard'' is similar to a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashboard_(business) Business Dashboard] as defined by wikipedia.org.<br />
<br />
'''This document is very much a Work In Progress. Input from others is strong encouraged! If you are unable to directly edit this document, please send comments, feedback, etc. to the [mailto:public-w3process@w3.org public-w3process @ w3.org] mail list ([http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/ archive]).'''<br />
<br />
Open Actions and Issues for this document are tracked by the [https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/products/13 W3C's Tracker].<br />
<br />
SeeAlso:<br />
* [https://www.w3.org/wiki/Headlights2013/SiteRedesign/Proposal 2013 Site Redesign Proposal]<br />
<br />
<br />
== What do we mean by Dashboard? ==<br />
<br />
The basic idea of a ''dashboard'' is to provide at-a-glance views of a particular group or organization. The amount of detail in a dashboard varies considerably, depending on the purpose of the dashboard.<br />
<br />
== Examples of Dashboards in the W3C == <br />
<br />
* [http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Publications HTML WG Publications]<br />
* [http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ Semantic Web Activity (Statement]<br />
* [https://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/ W3C Groups and Activities]<br />
<br />
== Problem Statement ==<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for W3C Members to get an overview of the current status of existing groups such as their publication status, hot issues, etc.<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for AC Reps of large organizations to handle the combinatorics of matchmaking all the different groups (WG, CB, BG) and topics at W3C with the different groups and topics of their organization.<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for prospective Members to get an overview of the current status specific groups they might want to participate<br />
<br />
* It is difficult for other Standards Setting Organizations to get: a) an overview of the current status of specific groups; b) the status of specific specification(s) <br />
<br />
* Groups provide dashboard type information in various ways and having some consistency could be helpful<br />
<br />
* Milestones in Working Group charters typically become out-of-date soon after a charter is approved by the Director. In such cases, the WG should provide current status of the group's publication status (in some type of ''dashboard like'' style).<br />
<br />
== Types of Dashboards ==<br />
<br />
Within the Consortium, there different types of dashboards are needed:<br />
<br />
* Domains and/or Activity level<br />
<br />
* Working Groups<br />
<br />
* Interest Groups<br />
<br />
* Community Groups<br />
<br />
* Consortium wide<br />
<br />
== Use Cases == <br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current publication status of Working Group X<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current status of Domain Y<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the current status of Community Group Z<br />
<br />
* AC rep wants to know the impact of one given technology on Working Group roadmaps (or specific specifications)<br />
<br />
== Considerations ==<br />
<br />
* Target audience: AC reps, Members, prospective Members, Public, Group members<br />
<br />
* Cost: maintaining group-level dashboard takes Chair time<br />
<br />
== Requirements ==<br />
<br />
* It should be possible to retrieve a summary of activity for a domain, a working group, a task force, a community group, a business group. <br />
<br />
* The level of information should be structured with the following hierarchy<br />
**General summary of the activity (business driver, supporters)<br />
**Roadmap of the activity (major achievement, coming challenges, potential known blockers or imperative deadline)<br />
**List of deliverables<br />
** Summary of each deliverable (including purpose, problem solved, companies involved, associated product)<br />
<br />
* For each summary of activity the set of relevant references should be made available (e.g. wiki, mailing list, chair/staff contact/editors name)<br />
<br />
== Priorities ==<br />
<br />
* '''High''': each Working Group must have some type of dashboard that minimally includes the current status of all of the group's active specifications<br />
<br />
* '''High''': create a document/service that includes a link to all WG dashboards, possibly organized by Domains<br />
<br />
* Low: Consortium-wide dashboard<br />
<br />
== Potential Solutions ==<br />
<br />
* Add a link to each WG's dashboard to the [http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/ Canonical WG list service] (aka IPP page)</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=MeetingTaxis&diff=66527MeetingTaxis2013-06-05T16:05:00Z<p>Fgandon: /* Arrivals to Tokyo for AC Meeting */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:EswMeetings]]<br />
<br />
There are a lot of big meetings organized by W3C. Someone asked about a wiki page for letting people know when you are arriving at one and would like to share a taxi - especially in places where taxis are very expensive, or meet to take a bus, train, or hotel shuttle. So here it is.<br />
<br />
Please, put entries in chronological order.<br />
<br />
Please, note that this page is '''public'''.<br />
<br />
= Advisory Committee Meeting (June 2013 in Tokyo) =<br />
<br />
==Arrivals to Tokyo for AC Meeting==<br />
<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| 8 June<br />
|Arr 8:45am<br />
|Narita<br />
|KL 861<br />
|Prince Hotel<br />
|Johanna Santos Bassetti <br />
|johanna.ssb@gmail.com<br />
|(niece of Ann Bassetti)<br />
|-<br />
|-<br />
| 8 June<br />
|Arr 5:35pm<br />
|Narita<br />
|EK 318<br />
|Prince Hotel<br />
|Coralie Mercier<br />
|coralie@w3.org<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|-<br />
| 8 June<br />
|Arr 6pm<br />
|Narita<br />
|AF 278<br />
|Celestine Hotel<br />
|Fabien Gandon<br />
|Fabien.Gandon@inria.fr<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|-<br />
| 8 June<br />
|Arr 10:20pm<br />
|Haneda<br />
|JAL 001<br />
|<br />
|TV Raman<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|9 June<br />
|Arr 9:30am<br />
|Narita <br />
|Virgin Atlantic VS 900<br />
|<br />
|Daniel Appelquist<br />
|daniel.appelquist@telefonica.com<br />
|<br />
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<br />
= W3C [http://www.w3.org/2013/06/AC/ Advisory Board Meeting], Tokyo, Japan =<br />
venue: Keio University, Mita Campus<br />
2-15-45, Mita, Minato-ku, Tokyo 108-8345, Japan<br />
<br />
==Arrivals to Tokyo==<br />
<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Hotel <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| <br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
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|}<br />
<br />
==Departures from Tokyo==<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background-color:#E0F4FF;" border="1" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"<br />
! Date <br />
! Meeting <br> Departure <br> Time <br />
! Flight Time <br />
! Airport Info <br />
! Flight Info <br />
! Meeting <br> Departure <br> Location <br />
! Name <br />
! Email <br />
! Notes <br />
|-<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| <br />
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<br />
'''REMINDER:''' Please, put entries in chronological order.</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Semantic_Syntaxes&diff=55190TPAC/2011/Semantic Syntaxes2011-11-02T23:14:07Z<p>Fgandon: </p>
<hr />
<div>=Semantic Syntaxes=<br />
* Proposer: Tantek Çelik<br />
* Discussion Leader: Ben Adida<br />
* Type of session: discussion<br />
<br />
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.<br />
<br />
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.<br />
<br />
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.<br />
<br />
microformats has also been evolving with [http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 microformats 2], and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"<br />
<br />
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.<br />
<br />
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:<br />
<br />
* How are syntaxes evolving?<br />
* What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?<br />
* Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?<br />
<br />
== notes ==<br />
<br />
Scribe [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon] FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665<br />
FabGandon changed topic to : Semantics and Syntax what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida opening the session with the history of microformat the small “s” semantic web.<br />
FabGandon: ... vcard, events, places ...<br />
tantek: please capture notes persistently on the wiki page also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes#notes<br />
FabGandon: ... at the time at creative common and micro-format looked grat<br />
FabGandon: ... Ben commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat didn't look the right solution because remixing was not a use case<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa was a reaction to this<br />
FabGandon: ... many people think RDFa is only for XHTML<br />
FabGandon: ... (showing RDFa 1.1 Lite markup example<br />
FabGandon: ... http://manu.sporny.org/2011/rdfa-lite/<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa 1.1 : profiles, vocab, etc.<br />
JeniT: RDFa 1.1 Lite W3C Editors Draft is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-lite/Overview-src.html<br />
FabGandon: ... SearchMonkey 2006 Yahoo product using RDFa to customize search results http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/<br />
FabGandon: ... really nice pipeline<br />
FabGandon: tantek: Yahoo never actually deployed such appraoch in their main search engine<br />
FabGandon: ... only used in Search Monkey<br />
KevinMarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Microdata focusing on search engine by Ian Hickson http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/<br />
FabGandon: ... another syntax where you can plug any vocabulary<br />
tantek: Hixie defined a syntax in microdata, in microdata, and a licensing vocabulary and also a set of sample vocabularies, vcard in microdata, vevent (from iCalendar<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa makes it easy to mix different vocs, Microdata simplifies the way the page is adorned with property-value pairs<br />
FabGandon: ... http://schema.org/ provides a list of vocs using microdata see http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html<br />
FabGandon: ... Tantek made the point at the Schema.org workshop that multiple syntaxes is a good thing.<br />
KevinMarks: also http://www.data-vocabulary.org/ was hixie's original schema home for microdata<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: Timeline: microformats -> RDFa 1.0 -> Microdata -> RDFa 1.1 -> Microformats 2.0 each one building on the return on experience of the previous ones<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2.0 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2<br />
FabGandon: ... a surprising feedback is that even microformats are sometime a too complex syntax<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2 providing a list of optimizations to simplify markup (e.g. root classes<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid hierarchy mechanisms in the mark-up<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid class name collisons by separating the syntax from the vocabularies<br />
FabGandon: ... web sites updates by different peoples tend to lead to loss of markup<br />
KevinMarks: that happened to me with Google Profiles - someone stripped out my hCard classes :(<br />
FabGandon: ... so use prefix class names (scribe was lost here<br />
FabGandon: ... example of microformat 2 : <a class="h-card" href="http://benward.me">Ben Ward</a><br />
KevinMarks: "h-*" for root class names; "p-*" for simple (text properties; "u-*" for URL properties, e.g. "u-url", "u-photo", "u-logo"; "dt-*" for datetime properties; "e-*" for properties where the entire contained element hierarchy is the value<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: examples of prefixes h- fo root class names, p- for properties, u- for URL properties, dt- for datetime properties, e- for properties, etc<br />
hober: Can I use different prefixes for the same property in different instances of the same format?<br />
KevinMarks: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing<br />
KevinMarks: in principle, yes<br />
FabGandon: Noah : question about the simplification of the hierarchy mechanisms.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the voc with the less hierarchy are the ones that got most adopted.<br />
KevinMarks: we forgot the other semantic markup <script> with JSON in...<br />
tantek: and most reliably adopted<br />
tantek: KevinMarks - that's invisible<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa tries to reuse the RDF stack as much as possible.<br />
tantek: and duplicated (violates DRY<br />
KevinMarks: yes<br />
KevinMarks: we should discuss though, and OGP way too<br />
KevinMarks: to explain why/what<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: mapping of microdata to RDF<br />
KevinMarks: also mapping of microformats to RDF via GRDDL<br />
FabGandon: ... the mapping was removed because there is no right answer identified for now.<br />
FabGandon: ... one proposal is to come up with a form of registry of mapping<br />
FabGandon: Phil Archer: working with European commission on developing new vocs<br />
tantek: ... great that microformats and microdata to end up with the same JSON<br />
FabGandon: ... are there use cases to tell me when to use microformat vs. RDFa vs microdata ?<br />
tantek: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf<br />
KevinMarks: Monica should explain OGP<br />
JeniT: PhilA, working on it: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_an_HTML_Data_Format<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa strongest when you need to mix vocs from different sources and/or when you need the RDF stack<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the focus on syntax is not important during dev, the important question is the voc.<br />
FabGandon: ... let's move the hard questions to the vocabulary which is the most important for communication<br />
FabGandon: ... if we do our job the syntax won't be the problem.<br />
FabGandon: Monica : at social cast we use several syntaxes<br />
KevinMarks: Monica Wilkinson: OGP puts data in the <head> - violates DRY on purpose to avoid designers 'breaking things'<br />
FabGandon: Ian: the syntax also depends on who is the consumer<br />
FabGandon: Key: the problem is also that many people don't know enough about these technology to even see the syntax problem.<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: the problem is also that they don't perceive the added value to do that<br />
FabGandon: ... one way to address that is through web components<br />
FabGandon: ... encapsulate the UI value and the data value at the same time<br />
FabGandon: Ian: microdata is also useful in drag and drop actions for instance<br />
KevinMarks: the rel- microformats have become part of HTML5, per Alex's point<br />
FabGandon: Hadley Beeman: how far are we in separating the syntax and vocs ?<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa did that from the start<br />
KevinMarks: "people didn't know about it" is not a feature<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: if everyone does his own voc you end up whith babel<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: there will always a small number of small vocs extremely used and then a long tail<br />
FabGandon: (no way I can capture TimBL hyper-speach<br />
tantek: Alex Russell and TimBL having a healthy discussion about vocabularies.<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: more and more data are ending up in javascript and we need to get that back into declarative format.<br />
FabGandon: ... meaning drifts with the updates of the system<br />
FabGandon: ... I have hopes for slang not for fixed vocs.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the immediate UI experience is the best way to have high quality data<br />
KevinMarks: tantek: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
FabGandon: ... schema.org diverges from existing vocs and that’s a mistake.<br />
FabGandon: Noah: couldn't we use the validators to promote common practices<br />
FabGandon: ... alert people on what is going on<br />
FabGandon: Eric Franzon: what the state of tool dev is? plugins, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: several CMS include microformat in wordpress, RDFa in drupal, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: partial reuse should be suported, its better than nothing.<br />
KevinMarks: look at the #semsyn tag on twitter too FabGandon<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: one of the problem is the lack of indirections<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Web dev and Vocab dev are two different communities.<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: RDF engines should be able to do the follow your nose on the voc mapping.<br />
FabGandon: ... validator may be too far away but browsers have the ability to show the sources<br />
FabGandon: ... this could be where we could have thye view data and be able to correct any problem before copy paste<br />
FabGandon: Alex: who's putting the data in the page in the first place.<br />
gkellogg_: In RDFa, @vocab allows for a form of indirection<br />
FabGandon: ... think of it in evolutionary terms,<br />
tantek: Steve Zilles on web developers vs. scripts putting markup on the web.<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: the web dev are not the only one to put the data in the pages, also scripts<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: there is always a human, a human created and maintained the script.<br />
Vincent a quitté le salon (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: yes but it comes from a DB with a schema.<br />
tantek: Our experience (back at Technorati was the even data from databases (DB rots over time. Up to 30-40% of RSS/Atom feeds were broken / inconsistent with the *visible* HTML pages.<br />
tantek: Databases / scripts are not long term.<br />
<br />
<br />
Twitter Archive Dump<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:22 breakout session #semsyn at #w3c #tpac what syntax to use to add semantic information to HTML http://t.co/cOLcNHwy<br />
JeniT 02/11/2011 19:23 @fabien_gandon Are you going to live-tweet? #semsyn?<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:24 #tpac #semsyn @benadida is explaining #microformats history - the lower case semantic web http://t.co/OK2uwNaV<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:26 @JeniT on irc.w3.org:6665 channel #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:28 #tpac #semsyn claims @benadida remixing fields from other schemas was not a #microformats goal<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 19:32 RDFa lite 1.1 - W3C Editor's Draft 30 October 2011, via @jeniT http://t.co/FKCteMBR #linkeddata #semsyn #TPAC<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:35 energetic discussions with Ian is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
eyeonprofit 02/11/2011 19:36 RT @kevinmarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
bsletten 02/11/2011 19:40 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:40 #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:43 #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:44 #tpac #semsyn @t now explaining the http://t.co/T8obHriv - now simpler and more coherent. washes brighter.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 19:44 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:46 #tpac #semsyn @t: every social networking site has a name, photo and URL per person, so we can assume p-name u-url and u-photo for h-card<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:47 #tpac #semsyn @t: the more complex and hierarchical the syntax is, the more it reduces data quality (per Guha)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:48 #tpac #semsyn @t there was no way to write a generic #microformats parser - with http://t.co/T8obHriv this is possible<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:01 #tpac #semsyn @benadida RDFa is at its best when you want to mix already-existing vocabularies without seeking consensus or need RDF stack<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:02 #tpac #semsyn @t the right thing to do is develop an open vocabulary first, then worry about the syntactic mapping to #microformats et al<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:06 #tpac #semsyn @t the vocabulary is about agreement; people stripping out code is a syntax issue<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell:we get to a point where the search engine pipeline and the end-user are seeing different things on the page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell: when you mark up with #microfromats et al you aren't directly addressing the primary user of your page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: we should treat these syntaxes as things that should be in HTML eventually and become first class<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: data we mark up is probabalistically semantic - not first-person semantic<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:14 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:16 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
LogicalB0T 02/11/2011 20:16 Fascinating. RT @kevinmarks - #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:18 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: I see more and more data in JSON on the web, and if we want a declarative form people make a second version<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:19 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:20 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: meaning drifts over time - we're not going to get there by defining ontologies ahead of time<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:21 #tpac #semsyn @t: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:22 #tpac #semsyn @t: if you're making up semantics for the sake of it, it will rot. 'you might someday look nicer in a search engine' !enough<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:23 #tpac #semsyn @t: RFC 6350 - vcard4 drew on Portable Contacts, hCard experience. http://t.co/K9aXzf9R Person ignored this<br />
MartijnLinssen 02/11/2011 20:24 @kevinmarks With all due disrespect, W3C is a tech-fest run by nerds. We need business standards #tpac #semsyn<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:24 What are the main use cases for #semsyn (micro formats, microdata, RDFa), stream publishing ? ala #facebook<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:24 #tpac #semsyn @t: http://t.co/K9aXzf9R diverged from every existing vocabulary arbitrarily. and made things worse.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:25 Or HTML APIs ? #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:29 #tpac #semsyn @ciberch: having HTML APIs that make sense of the data on the page will drive this (see http://t.co/CKSXwVML )<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:31 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:32 #tpac #semsyn @t: as soon as you say indirection or subclass, you've lost most web developers @benadida: save pain for vocab developers<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:33 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: I like what python does - from foaf import date - can bring in namespace pieces from elsewhere<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: just as a browser has view source - we should have view data too<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn http://t.co/wKzNTpjI enables bringing in a vocabulary to define keys<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:35 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: you view source on something to work out how it was done and borrow it for your own site.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:39 @kevinmarks yup ideally we will move away from js apis that build iframes to pull html markup for a widget #semsyn<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 20:41 Very good session on semantic syntaxes: RDFa, microformats and microdata run by @benadida & @t. #semsyn #TPAC<br />
<br />
== related ==<br />
* [[Html-data-tf]]<br />
* ...</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Semantic_Syntaxes&diff=55189TPAC/2011/Semantic Syntaxes2011-11-02T23:13:31Z<p>Fgandon: </p>
<hr />
<div>=Semantic Syntaxes=<br />
* Proposer: Tantek Çelik<br />
* Discussion Leader: Ben Adida<br />
* Type of session: discussion<br />
<br />
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.<br />
<br />
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.<br />
<br />
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.<br />
<br />
microformats has also been evolving with [http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 microformats 2], and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"<br />
<br />
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.<br />
<br />
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:<br />
<br />
* How are syntaxes evolving?<br />
* What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?<br />
* Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?<br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
<br />
Scribe [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon] FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665<br />
FabGandon changed topic to : Semantics and Syntax what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida opening the session with the history of microformat the small “s” semantic web.<br />
FabGandon: ... vcard, events, places ...<br />
tantek: please capture notes persistently on the wiki page also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes#notes<br />
FabGandon: ... at the time at creative common and micro-format looked grat<br />
FabGandon: ... Ben commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat didn't look the right solution because remixing was not a use case<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa was a reaction to this<br />
FabGandon: ... many people think RDFa is only for XHTML<br />
FabGandon: ... (showing RDFa 1.1 Lite markup example<br />
FabGandon: ... http://manu.sporny.org/2011/rdfa-lite/<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa 1.1 : profiles, vocab, etc.<br />
JeniT: RDFa 1.1 Lite W3C Editors Draft is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-lite/Overview-src.html<br />
FabGandon: ... SearchMonkey 2006 Yahoo product using RDFa to customize search results http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/<br />
FabGandon: ... really nice pipeline<br />
FabGandon: tantek: Yahoo never actually deployed such appraoch in their main search engine<br />
FabGandon: ... only used in Search Monkey<br />
KevinMarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Microdata focusing on search engine by Ian Hickson http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/<br />
FabGandon: ... another syntax where you can plug any vocabulary<br />
tantek: Hixie defined a syntax in microdata, in microdata, and a licensing vocabulary and also a set of sample vocabularies, vcard in microdata, vevent (from iCalendar<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa makes it easy to mix different vocs, Microdata simplifies the way the page is adorned with property-value pairs<br />
FabGandon: ... http://schema.org/ provides a list of vocs using microdata see http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html<br />
FabGandon: ... Tantek made the point at the Schema.org workshop that multiple syntaxes is a good thing.<br />
KevinMarks: also http://www.data-vocabulary.org/ was hixie's original schema home for microdata<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: Timeline: microformats -> RDFa 1.0 -> Microdata -> RDFa 1.1 -> Microformats 2.0 each one building on the return on experience of the previous ones<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2.0 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2<br />
FabGandon: ... a surprising feedback is that even microformats are sometime a too complex syntax<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2 providing a list of optimizations to simplify markup (e.g. root classes<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid hierarchy mechanisms in the mark-up<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid class name collisons by separating the syntax from the vocabularies<br />
FabGandon: ... web sites updates by different peoples tend to lead to loss of markup<br />
KevinMarks: that happened to me with Google Profiles - someone stripped out my hCard classes :(<br />
FabGandon: ... so use prefix class names (scribe was lost here<br />
FabGandon: ... example of microformat 2 : <a class="h-card" href="http://benward.me">Ben Ward</a><br />
KevinMarks: "h-*" for root class names; "p-*" for simple (text properties; "u-*" for URL properties, e.g. "u-url", "u-photo", "u-logo"; "dt-*" for datetime properties; "e-*" for properties where the entire contained element hierarchy is the value<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: examples of prefixes h- fo root class names, p- for properties, u- for URL properties, dt- for datetime properties, e- for properties, etc<br />
hober: Can I use different prefixes for the same property in different instances of the same format?<br />
KevinMarks: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing<br />
KevinMarks: in principle, yes<br />
FabGandon: Noah : question about the simplification of the hierarchy mechanisms.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the voc with the less hierarchy are the ones that got most adopted.<br />
KevinMarks: we forgot the other semantic markup <script> with JSON in...<br />
tantek: and most reliably adopted<br />
tantek: KevinMarks - that's invisible<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa tries to reuse the RDF stack as much as possible.<br />
tantek: and duplicated (violates DRY<br />
KevinMarks: yes<br />
KevinMarks: we should discuss though, and OGP way too<br />
KevinMarks: to explain why/what<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: mapping of microdata to RDF<br />
KevinMarks: also mapping of microformats to RDF via GRDDL<br />
FabGandon: ... the mapping was removed because there is no right answer identified for now.<br />
FabGandon: ... one proposal is to come up with a form of registry of mapping<br />
FabGandon: Phil Archer: working with European commission on developing new vocs<br />
tantek: ... great that microformats and microdata to end up with the same JSON<br />
FabGandon: ... are there use cases to tell me when to use microformat vs. RDFa vs microdata ?<br />
tantek: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf<br />
KevinMarks: Monica should explain OGP<br />
JeniT: PhilA, working on it: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_an_HTML_Data_Format<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa strongest when you need to mix vocs from different sources and/or when you need the RDF stack<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the focus on syntax is not important during dev, the important question is the voc.<br />
FabGandon: ... let's move the hard questions to the vocabulary which is the most important for communication<br />
FabGandon: ... if we do our job the syntax won't be the problem.<br />
FabGandon: Monica : at social cast we use several syntaxes<br />
KevinMarks: Monica Wilkinson: OGP puts data in the <head> - violates DRY on purpose to avoid designers 'breaking things'<br />
FabGandon: Ian: the syntax also depends on who is the consumer<br />
FabGandon: Key: the problem is also that many people don't know enough about these technology to even see the syntax problem.<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: the problem is also that they don't perceive the added value to do that<br />
FabGandon: ... one way to address that is through web components<br />
FabGandon: ... encapsulate the UI value and the data value at the same time<br />
FabGandon: Ian: microdata is also useful in drag and drop actions for instance<br />
KevinMarks: the rel- microformats have become part of HTML5, per Alex's point<br />
FabGandon: Hadley Beeman: how far are we in separating the syntax and vocs ?<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa did that from the start<br />
KevinMarks: "people didn't know about it" is not a feature<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: if everyone does his own voc you end up whith babel<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: there will always a small number of small vocs extremely used and then a long tail<br />
FabGandon: (no way I can capture TimBL hyper-speach<br />
tantek: Alex Russell and TimBL having a healthy discussion about vocabularies.<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: more and more data are ending up in javascript and we need to get that back into declarative format.<br />
FabGandon: ... meaning drifts with the updates of the system<br />
FabGandon: ... I have hopes for slang not for fixed vocs.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the immediate UI experience is the best way to have high quality data<br />
KevinMarks: tantek: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
FabGandon: ... schema.org diverges from existing vocs and that’s a mistake.<br />
FabGandon: Noah: couldn't we use the validators to promote common practices<br />
FabGandon: ... alert people on what is going on<br />
FabGandon: Eric Franzon: what the state of tool dev is? plugins, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: several CMS include microformat in wordpress, RDFa in drupal, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: partial reuse should be suported, its better than nothing.<br />
KevinMarks: look at the #semsyn tag on twitter too FabGandon<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: one of the problem is the lack of indirections<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Web dev and Vocab dev are two different communities.<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: RDF engines should be able to do the follow your nose on the voc mapping.<br />
FabGandon: ... validator may be too far away but browsers have the ability to show the sources<br />
FabGandon: ... this could be where we could have thye view data and be able to correct any problem before copy paste<br />
FabGandon: Alex: who's putting the data in the page in the first place.<br />
gkellogg_: In RDFa, @vocab allows for a form of indirection<br />
FabGandon: ... think of it in evolutionary terms,<br />
tantek: Steve Zilles on web developers vs. scripts putting markup on the web.<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: the web dev are not the only one to put the data in the pages, also scripts<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: there is always a human, a human created and maintained the script.<br />
Vincent a quitté le salon (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: yes but it comes from a DB with a schema.<br />
tantek: Our experience (back at Technorati was the even data from databases (DB rots over time. Up to 30-40% of RSS/Atom feeds were broken / inconsistent with the *visible* HTML pages.<br />
tantek: Databases / scripts are not long term.<br />
<br />
<br />
Twitter Archive Dump<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:22 breakout session #semsyn at #w3c #tpac what syntax to use to add semantic information to HTML http://t.co/cOLcNHwy<br />
JeniT 02/11/2011 19:23 @fabien_gandon Are you going to live-tweet? #semsyn?<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:24 #tpac #semsyn @benadida is explaining #microformats history - the lower case semantic web http://t.co/OK2uwNaV<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:26 @JeniT on irc.w3.org:6665 channel #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:28 #tpac #semsyn claims @benadida remixing fields from other schemas was not a #microformats goal<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 19:32 RDFa lite 1.1 - W3C Editor's Draft 30 October 2011, via @jeniT http://t.co/FKCteMBR #linkeddata #semsyn #TPAC<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:35 energetic discussions with Ian is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
eyeonprofit 02/11/2011 19:36 RT @kevinmarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
bsletten 02/11/2011 19:40 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:40 #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:43 #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:44 #tpac #semsyn @t now explaining the http://t.co/T8obHriv - now simpler and more coherent. washes brighter.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 19:44 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:46 #tpac #semsyn @t: every social networking site has a name, photo and URL per person, so we can assume p-name u-url and u-photo for h-card<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:47 #tpac #semsyn @t: the more complex and hierarchical the syntax is, the more it reduces data quality (per Guha)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:48 #tpac #semsyn @t there was no way to write a generic #microformats parser - with http://t.co/T8obHriv this is possible<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:01 #tpac #semsyn @benadida RDFa is at its best when you want to mix already-existing vocabularies without seeking consensus or need RDF stack<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:02 #tpac #semsyn @t the right thing to do is develop an open vocabulary first, then worry about the syntactic mapping to #microformats et al<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:06 #tpac #semsyn @t the vocabulary is about agreement; people stripping out code is a syntax issue<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell:we get to a point where the search engine pipeline and the end-user are seeing different things on the page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell: when you mark up with #microfromats et al you aren't directly addressing the primary user of your page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: we should treat these syntaxes as things that should be in HTML eventually and become first class<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: data we mark up is probabalistically semantic - not first-person semantic<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:14 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:16 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
LogicalB0T 02/11/2011 20:16 Fascinating. RT @kevinmarks - #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:18 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: I see more and more data in JSON on the web, and if we want a declarative form people make a second version<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:19 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:20 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: meaning drifts over time - we're not going to get there by defining ontologies ahead of time<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:21 #tpac #semsyn @t: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:22 #tpac #semsyn @t: if you're making up semantics for the sake of it, it will rot. 'you might someday look nicer in a search engine' !enough<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:23 #tpac #semsyn @t: RFC 6350 - vcard4 drew on Portable Contacts, hCard experience. http://t.co/K9aXzf9R Person ignored this<br />
MartijnLinssen 02/11/2011 20:24 @kevinmarks With all due disrespect, W3C is a tech-fest run by nerds. We need business standards #tpac #semsyn<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:24 What are the main use cases for #semsyn (micro formats, microdata, RDFa), stream publishing ? ala #facebook<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:24 #tpac #semsyn @t: http://t.co/K9aXzf9R diverged from every existing vocabulary arbitrarily. and made things worse.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:25 Or HTML APIs ? #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:29 #tpac #semsyn @ciberch: having HTML APIs that make sense of the data on the page will drive this (see http://t.co/CKSXwVML )<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:31 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:32 #tpac #semsyn @t: as soon as you say indirection or subclass, you've lost most web developers @benadida: save pain for vocab developers<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:33 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: I like what python does - from foaf import date - can bring in namespace pieces from elsewhere<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: just as a browser has view source - we should have view data too<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn http://t.co/wKzNTpjI enables bringing in a vocabulary to define keys<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:35 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: you view source on something to work out how it was done and borrow it for your own site.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:39 @kevinmarks yup ideally we will move away from js apis that build iframes to pull html markup for a widget #semsyn<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 20:41 Very good session on semantic syntaxes: RDFa, microformats and microdata run by @benadida & @t. #semsyn #TPAC<br />
<br />
== related ==<br />
* [[Html-data-tf]]<br />
* ...</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Semantic_Syntaxes&diff=55188TPAC/2011/Semantic Syntaxes2011-11-02T23:12:30Z<p>Fgandon: </p>
<hr />
<div>===Semantic Syntaxes===<br />
* Proposer: Tantek Çelik<br />
* Discussion Leader: Ben Adida<br />
* Type of session: discussion<br />
<br />
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.<br />
<br />
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.<br />
<br />
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.<br />
<br />
microformats has also been evolving with [http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 microformats 2], and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"<br />
<br />
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.<br />
<br />
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:<br />
<br />
* How are syntaxes evolving?<br />
* What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?<br />
* Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?<br />
<br />
== notes ==<br />
<br />
Scribe [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon] FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665<br />
FabGandon changed topic to : Semantics and Syntax what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida opening the session with the history of microformat the small “s” semantic web.<br />
FabGandon: ... vcard, events, places ...<br />
tantek: please capture notes persistently on the wiki page also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes#notes<br />
FabGandon: ... at the time at creative common and micro-format looked grat<br />
FabGandon: ... Ben commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat didn't look the right solution because remixing was not a use case<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa was a reaction to this<br />
FabGandon: ... many people think RDFa is only for XHTML<br />
FabGandon: ... (showing RDFa 1.1 Lite markup example<br />
FabGandon: ... http://manu.sporny.org/2011/rdfa-lite/<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa 1.1 : profiles, vocab, etc.<br />
JeniT: RDFa 1.1 Lite W3C Editors Draft is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-lite/Overview-src.html<br />
FabGandon: ... SearchMonkey 2006 Yahoo product using RDFa to customize search results http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/<br />
FabGandon: ... really nice pipeline<br />
FabGandon: tantek: Yahoo never actually deployed such appraoch in their main search engine<br />
FabGandon: ... only used in Search Monkey<br />
KevinMarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Microdata focusing on search engine by Ian Hickson http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/<br />
FabGandon: ... another syntax where you can plug any vocabulary<br />
tantek: Hixie defined a syntax in microdata, in microdata, and a licensing vocabulary and also a set of sample vocabularies, vcard in microdata, vevent (from iCalendar<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa makes it easy to mix different vocs, Microdata simplifies the way the page is adorned with property-value pairs<br />
FabGandon: ... http://schema.org/ provides a list of vocs using microdata see http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html<br />
FabGandon: ... Tantek made the point at the Schema.org workshop that multiple syntaxes is a good thing.<br />
KevinMarks: also http://www.data-vocabulary.org/ was hixie's original schema home for microdata<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: Timeline: microformats -> RDFa 1.0 -> Microdata -> RDFa 1.1 -> Microformats 2.0 each one building on the return on experience of the previous ones<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2.0 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2<br />
FabGandon: ... a surprising feedback is that even microformats are sometime a too complex syntax<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2 providing a list of optimizations to simplify markup (e.g. root classes<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid hierarchy mechanisms in the mark-up<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid class name collisons by separating the syntax from the vocabularies<br />
FabGandon: ... web sites updates by different peoples tend to lead to loss of markup<br />
KevinMarks: that happened to me with Google Profiles - someone stripped out my hCard classes :(<br />
FabGandon: ... so use prefix class names (scribe was lost here<br />
FabGandon: ... example of microformat 2 : <a class="h-card" href="http://benward.me">Ben Ward</a><br />
KevinMarks: "h-*" for root class names; "p-*" for simple (text properties; "u-*" for URL properties, e.g. "u-url", "u-photo", "u-logo"; "dt-*" for datetime properties; "e-*" for properties where the entire contained element hierarchy is the value<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: examples of prefixes h- fo root class names, p- for properties, u- for URL properties, dt- for datetime properties, e- for properties, etc<br />
hober: Can I use different prefixes for the same property in different instances of the same format?<br />
KevinMarks: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing<br />
KevinMarks: in principle, yes<br />
FabGandon: Noah : question about the simplification of the hierarchy mechanisms.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the voc with the less hierarchy are the ones that got most adopted.<br />
KevinMarks: we forgot the other semantic markup <script> with JSON in...<br />
tantek: and most reliably adopted<br />
tantek: KevinMarks - that's invisible<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa tries to reuse the RDF stack as much as possible.<br />
tantek: and duplicated (violates DRY<br />
KevinMarks: yes<br />
KevinMarks: we should discuss though, and OGP way too<br />
KevinMarks: to explain why/what<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: mapping of microdata to RDF<br />
KevinMarks: also mapping of microformats to RDF via GRDDL<br />
FabGandon: ... the mapping was removed because there is no right answer identified for now.<br />
FabGandon: ... one proposal is to come up with a form of registry of mapping<br />
FabGandon: Phil Archer: working with European commission on developing new vocs<br />
tantek: ... great that microformats and microdata to end up with the same JSON<br />
FabGandon: ... are there use cases to tell me when to use microformat vs. RDFa vs microdata ?<br />
tantek: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf<br />
KevinMarks: Monica should explain OGP<br />
JeniT: PhilA, working on it: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_an_HTML_Data_Format<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa strongest when you need to mix vocs from different sources and/or when you need the RDF stack<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the focus on syntax is not important during dev, the important question is the voc.<br />
FabGandon: ... let's move the hard questions to the vocabulary which is the most important for communication<br />
FabGandon: ... if we do our job the syntax won't be the problem.<br />
FabGandon: Monica : at social cast we use several syntaxes<br />
KevinMarks: Monica Wilkinson: OGP puts data in the <head> - violates DRY on purpose to avoid designers 'breaking things'<br />
FabGandon: Ian: the syntax also depends on who is the consumer<br />
FabGandon: Key: the problem is also that many people don't know enough about these technology to even see the syntax problem.<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: the problem is also that they don't perceive the added value to do that<br />
FabGandon: ... one way to address that is through web components<br />
FabGandon: ... encapsulate the UI value and the data value at the same time<br />
FabGandon: Ian: microdata is also useful in drag and drop actions for instance<br />
KevinMarks: the rel- microformats have become part of HTML5, per Alex's point<br />
FabGandon: Hadley Beeman: how far are we in separating the syntax and vocs ?<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa did that from the start<br />
KevinMarks: "people didn't know about it" is not a feature<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: if everyone does his own voc you end up whith babel<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: there will always a small number of small vocs extremely used and then a long tail<br />
FabGandon: (no way I can capture TimBL hyper-speach<br />
tantek: Alex Russell and TimBL having a healthy discussion about vocabularies.<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: more and more data are ending up in javascript and we need to get that back into declarative format.<br />
FabGandon: ... meaning drifts with the updates of the system<br />
FabGandon: ... I have hopes for slang not for fixed vocs.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the immediate UI experience is the best way to have high quality data<br />
KevinMarks: tantek: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
FabGandon: ... schema.org diverges from existing vocs and that’s a mistake.<br />
FabGandon: Noah: couldn't we use the validators to promote common practices<br />
FabGandon: ... alert people on what is going on<br />
FabGandon: Eric Franzon: what the state of tool dev is? plugins, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: several CMS include microformat in wordpress, RDFa in drupal, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: partial reuse should be suported, its better than nothing.<br />
KevinMarks: look at the #semsyn tag on twitter too FabGandon<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: one of the problem is the lack of indirections<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Web dev and Vocab dev are two different communities.<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: RDF engines should be able to do the follow your nose on the voc mapping.<br />
FabGandon: ... validator may be too far away but browsers have the ability to show the sources<br />
FabGandon: ... this could be where we could have thye view data and be able to correct any problem before copy paste<br />
FabGandon: Alex: who's putting the data in the page in the first place.<br />
gkellogg_: In RDFa, @vocab allows for a form of indirection<br />
FabGandon: ... think of it in evolutionary terms,<br />
tantek: Steve Zilles on web developers vs. scripts putting markup on the web.<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: the web dev are not the only one to put the data in the pages, also scripts<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: there is always a human, a human created and maintained the script.<br />
Vincent a quitté le salon (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: yes but it comes from a DB with a schema.<br />
tantek: Our experience (back at Technorati was the even data from databases (DB rots over time. Up to 30-40% of RSS/Atom feeds were broken / inconsistent with the *visible* HTML pages.<br />
tantek: Databases / scripts are not long term.<br />
<br />
==Tweets==<br />
Twitter Archive Dump<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:22 breakout session #semsyn at #w3c #tpac what syntax to use to add semantic information to HTML http://t.co/cOLcNHwy<br />
JeniT 02/11/2011 19:23 @fabien_gandon Are you going to live-tweet? #semsyn?<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:24 #tpac #semsyn @benadida is explaining #microformats history - the lower case semantic web http://t.co/OK2uwNaV<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:26 @JeniT on irc.w3.org:6665 channel #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:28 #tpac #semsyn claims @benadida remixing fields from other schemas was not a #microformats goal<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 19:32 RDFa lite 1.1 - W3C Editor's Draft 30 October 2011, via @jeniT http://t.co/FKCteMBR #linkeddata #semsyn #TPAC<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:35 energetic discussions with Ian is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
eyeonprofit 02/11/2011 19:36 RT @kevinmarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
bsletten 02/11/2011 19:40 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:40 #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:43 #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:44 #tpac #semsyn @t now explaining the http://t.co/T8obHriv - now simpler and more coherent. washes brighter.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 19:44 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:46 #tpac #semsyn @t: every social networking site has a name, photo and URL per person, so we can assume p-name u-url and u-photo for h-card<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:47 #tpac #semsyn @t: the more complex and hierarchical the syntax is, the more it reduces data quality (per Guha)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:48 #tpac #semsyn @t there was no way to write a generic #microformats parser - with http://t.co/T8obHriv this is possible<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:01 #tpac #semsyn @benadida RDFa is at its best when you want to mix already-existing vocabularies without seeking consensus or need RDF stack<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:02 #tpac #semsyn @t the right thing to do is develop an open vocabulary first, then worry about the syntactic mapping to #microformats et al<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:06 #tpac #semsyn @t the vocabulary is about agreement; people stripping out code is a syntax issue<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell:we get to a point where the search engine pipeline and the end-user are seeing different things on the page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell: when you mark up with #microfromats et al you aren't directly addressing the primary user of your page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: we should treat these syntaxes as things that should be in HTML eventually and become first class<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: data we mark up is probabalistically semantic - not first-person semantic<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:14 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:16 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
LogicalB0T 02/11/2011 20:16 Fascinating. RT @kevinmarks - #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:18 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: I see more and more data in JSON on the web, and if we want a declarative form people make a second version<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:19 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:20 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: meaning drifts over time - we're not going to get there by defining ontologies ahead of time<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:21 #tpac #semsyn @t: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:22 #tpac #semsyn @t: if you're making up semantics for the sake of it, it will rot. 'you might someday look nicer in a search engine' !enough<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:23 #tpac #semsyn @t: RFC 6350 - vcard4 drew on Portable Contacts, hCard experience. http://t.co/K9aXzf9R Person ignored this<br />
MartijnLinssen 02/11/2011 20:24 @kevinmarks With all due disrespect, W3C is a tech-fest run by nerds. We need business standards #tpac #semsyn<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:24 What are the main use cases for #semsyn (micro formats, microdata, RDFa), stream publishing ? ala #facebook<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:24 #tpac #semsyn @t: http://t.co/K9aXzf9R diverged from every existing vocabulary arbitrarily. and made things worse.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:25 Or HTML APIs ? #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:29 #tpac #semsyn @ciberch: having HTML APIs that make sense of the data on the page will drive this (see http://t.co/CKSXwVML )<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:31 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:32 #tpac #semsyn @t: as soon as you say indirection or subclass, you've lost most web developers @benadida: save pain for vocab developers<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:33 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: I like what python does - from foaf import date - can bring in namespace pieces from elsewhere<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: just as a browser has view source - we should have view data too<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn http://t.co/wKzNTpjI enables bringing in a vocabulary to define keys<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:35 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: you view source on something to work out how it was done and borrow it for your own site.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:39 @kevinmarks yup ideally we will move away from js apis that build iframes to pull html markup for a widget #semsyn<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 20:41 Very good session on semantic syntaxes: RDFa, microformats and microdata run by @benadida & @t. #semsyn #TPAC<br />
<br />
== related ==<br />
* [[Html-data-tf]]<br />
* ...</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Semantic_Syntaxes&diff=55186TPAC/2011/Semantic Syntaxes2011-11-02T23:11:39Z<p>Fgandon: </p>
<hr />
<div>===Semantic Syntaxes===<br />
* Proposer: Tantek Çelik<br />
* Discussion Leader: Ben Adida<br />
* Type of session: discussion<br />
<br />
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.<br />
<br />
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.<br />
<br />
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.<br />
<br />
microformats has also been evolving with [http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 microformats 2], and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"<br />
<br />
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.<br />
<br />
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:<br />
<br />
* How are syntaxes evolving?<br />
* What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?<br />
* Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?<br />
<br />
== notes ==<br />
<br />
Scribe [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon] FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665<br />
FabGandon changed topic to : Semantics and Syntax what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida opening the session with the history of microformat the small “s” semantic web.<br />
FabGandon: ... vcard, events, places ...<br />
tantek: please capture notes persistently on the wiki page also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes#notes<br />
FabGandon: ... at the time at creative common and micro-format looked grat<br />
FabGandon: ... Ben commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat didn't look the right solution because remixing was not a use case<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa was a reaction to this<br />
FabGandon: ... many people think RDFa is only for XHTML<br />
FabGandon: ... (showing RDFa 1.1 Lite markup example<br />
FabGandon: ... http://manu.sporny.org/2011/rdfa-lite/<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa 1.1 : profiles, vocab, etc.<br />
JeniT: RDFa 1.1 Lite W3C Editors Draft is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-lite/Overview-src.html<br />
FabGandon: ... SearchMonkey 2006 Yahoo product using RDFa to customize search results http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/<br />
FabGandon: ... really nice pipeline<br />
FabGandon: tantek: Yahoo never actually deployed such appraoch in their main search engine<br />
FabGandon: ... only used in Search Monkey<br />
KevinMarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Microdata focusing on search engine by Ian Hickson http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/<br />
FabGandon: ... another syntax where you can plug any vocabulary<br />
tantek: Hixie defined a syntax in microdata, in microdata, and a licensing vocabulary and also a set of sample vocabularies, vcard in microdata, vevent (from iCalendar<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa makes it easy to mix different vocs, Microdata simplifies the way the page is adorned with property-value pairs<br />
FabGandon: ... http://schema.org/ provides a list of vocs using microdata see http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html<br />
FabGandon: ... Tantek made the point at the Schema.org workshop that multiple syntaxes is a good thing.<br />
KevinMarks: also http://www.data-vocabulary.org/ was hixie's original schema home for microdata<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: Timeline: microformats -> RDFa 1.0 -> Microdata -> RDFa 1.1 -> Microformats 2.0 each one building on the return on experience of the previous ones<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2.0 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2<br />
FabGandon: ... a surprising feedback is that even microformats are sometime a too complex syntax<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2 providing a list of optimizations to simplify markup (e.g. root classes<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid hierarchy mechanisms in the mark-up<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid class name collisons by separating the syntax from the vocabularies<br />
FabGandon: ... web sites updates by different peoples tend to lead to loss of markup<br />
KevinMarks: that happened to me with Google Profiles - someone stripped out my hCard classes :(<br />
FabGandon: ... so use prefix class names (scribe was lost here<br />
FabGandon: ... example of microformat 2 : <a class="h-card" href="http://benward.me">Ben Ward</a><br />
KevinMarks: "h-*" for root class names; "p-*" for simple (text properties; "u-*" for URL properties, e.g. "u-url", "u-photo", "u-logo"; "dt-*" for datetime properties; "e-*" for properties where the entire contained element hierarchy is the value<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: examples of prefixes h- fo root class names, p- for properties, u- for URL properties, dt- for datetime properties, e- for properties, etc<br />
hober: Can I use different prefixes for the same property in different instances of the same format?<br />
KevinMarks: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing<br />
KevinMarks: in principle, yes<br />
FabGandon: Noah : question about the simplification of the hierarchy mechanisms.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the voc with the less hierarchy are the ones that got most adopted.<br />
KevinMarks: we forgot the other semantic markup <script> with JSON in...<br />
tantek: and most reliably adopted<br />
tantek: KevinMarks - that's invisible<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa tries to reuse the RDF stack as much as possible.<br />
tantek: and duplicated (violates DRY<br />
KevinMarks: yes<br />
KevinMarks: we should discuss though, and OGP way too<br />
KevinMarks: to explain why/what<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: mapping of microdata to RDF<br />
KevinMarks: also mapping of microformats to RDF via GRDDL<br />
FabGandon: ... the mapping was removed because there is no right answer identified for now.<br />
FabGandon: ... one proposal is to come up with a form of registry of mapping<br />
FabGandon: Phil Archer: working with European commission on developing new vocs<br />
tantek: ... great that microformats and microdata to end up with the same JSON<br />
FabGandon: ... are there use cases to tell me when to use microformat vs. RDFa vs microdata ?<br />
tantek: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf<br />
KevinMarks: Monica should explain OGP<br />
JeniT: PhilA, working on it: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_an_HTML_Data_Format<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa strongest when you need to mix vocs from different sources and/or when you need the RDF stack<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the focus on syntax is not important during dev, the important question is the voc.<br />
FabGandon: ... let's move the hard questions to the vocabulary which is the most important for communication<br />
FabGandon: ... if we do our job the syntax won't be the problem.<br />
FabGandon: Monica : at social cast we use several syntaxes<br />
KevinMarks: Monica Wilkinson: OGP puts data in the <head> - violates DRY on purpose to avoid designers 'breaking things'<br />
FabGandon: Ian: the syntax also depends on who is the consumer<br />
FabGandon: Key: the problem is also that many people don't know enough about these technology to even see the syntax problem.<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: the problem is also that they don't perceive the added value to do that<br />
FabGandon: ... one way to address that is through web components<br />
FabGandon: ... encapsulate the UI value and the data value at the same time<br />
FabGandon: Ian: microdata is also useful in drag and drop actions for instance<br />
KevinMarks: the rel- microformats have become part of HTML5, per Alex's point<br />
FabGandon: Hadley Beeman: how far are we in separating the syntax and vocs ?<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa did that from the start<br />
KevinMarks: "people didn't know about it" is not a feature<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: if everyone does his own voc you end up whith babel<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: there will always a small number of small vocs extremely used and then a long tail<br />
FabGandon: (no way I can capture TimBL hyper-speach<br />
tantek: Alex Russell and TimBL having a healthy discussion about vocabularies.<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: more and more data are ending up in javascript and we need to get that back into declarative format.<br />
FabGandon: ... meaning drifts with the updates of the system<br />
FabGandon: ... I have hopes for slang not for fixed vocs.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the immediate UI experience is the best way to have high quality data<br />
KevinMarks: tantek: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
FabGandon: ... schema.org diverges from existing vocs and that’s a mistake.<br />
FabGandon: Noah: couldn't we use the validators to promote common practices<br />
FabGandon: ... alert people on what is going on<br />
FabGandon: Eric Franzon: what the state of tool dev is? plugins, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: several CMS include microformat in wordpress, RDFa in drupal, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: partial reuse should be suported, its better than nothing.<br />
KevinMarks: look at the #semsyn tag on twitter too FabGandon<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: one of the problem is the lack of indirections<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Web dev and Vocab dev are two different communities.<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: RDF engines should be able to do the follow your nose on the voc mapping.<br />
FabGandon: ... validator may be too far away but browsers have the ability to show the sources<br />
FabGandon: ... this could be where we could have thye view data and be able to correct any problem before copy paste<br />
FabGandon: Alex: who's putting the data in the page in the first place.<br />
gkellogg_: In RDFa, @vocab allows for a form of indirection<br />
FabGandon: ... think of it in evolutionary terms,<br />
tantek: Steve Zilles on web developers vs. scripts putting markup on the web.<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: the web dev are not the only one to put the data in the pages, also scripts<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: there is always a human, a human created and maintained the script.<br />
Vincent a quitté le salon (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: yes but it comes from a DB with a schema.<br />
tantek: Our experience (back at Technorati was the even data from databases (DB rots over time. Up to 30-40% of RSS/Atom feeds were broken / inconsistent with the *visible* HTML pages.<br />
tantek: Databases / scripts are not long term.<br />
<br />
== Tweets ==<br />
<br />
Twitter Archive Dump<br />
[htt://twitter.com/fabien_gandon @fabien_gandon] 02/11/2011 19:22 breakout session #semsyn at #w3c #tpac what syntax to use to add semantic information to HTML http://t.co/cOLcNHwy<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:24 #tpac #semsyn @benadida is explaining #microformats history - the lower case semantic web http://t.co/OK2uwNaV<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:26 @JeniT on irc.w3.org:6665 channel #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:28 #tpac #semsyn claims @benadida remixing fields from other schemas was not a #microformats goal<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 19:32 RDFa lite 1.1 - W3C Editor's Draft 30 October 2011, via @jeniT http://t.co/FKCteMBR #linkeddata #semsyn #TPAC<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:35 energetic discussions with Ian is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
eyeonprofit 02/11/2011 19:36 RT @kevinmarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
bsletten 02/11/2011 19:40 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:40 #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:43 #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:44 #tpac #semsyn @t now explaining the http://t.co/T8obHriv - now simpler and more coherent. washes brighter.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 19:44 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:46 #tpac #semsyn @t: every social networking site has a name, photo and URL per person, so we can assume p-name u-url and u-photo for h-card<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:47 #tpac #semsyn @t: the more complex and hierarchical the syntax is, the more it reduces data quality (per Guha)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:48 #tpac #semsyn @t there was no way to write a generic #microformats parser - with http://t.co/T8obHriv this is possible<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:01 #tpac #semsyn @benadida RDFa is at its best when you want to mix already-existing vocabularies without seeking consensus or need RDF stack<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:02 #tpac #semsyn @t the right thing to do is develop an open vocabulary first, then worry about the syntactic mapping to #microformats et al<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:06 #tpac #semsyn @t the vocabulary is about agreement; people stripping out code is a syntax issue<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell:we get to a point where the search engine pipeline and the end-user are seeing different things on the page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell: when you mark up with #microfromats et al you aren't directly addressing the primary user of your page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: we should treat these syntaxes as things that should be in HTML eventually and become first class<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: data we mark up is probabalistically semantic - not first-person semantic<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:14 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:16 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
LogicalB0T 02/11/2011 20:16 Fascinating. RT @kevinmarks - #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:18 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: I see more and more data in JSON on the web, and if we want a declarative form people make a second version<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:19 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:20 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: meaning drifts over time - we're not going to get there by defining ontologies ahead of time<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:21 #tpac #semsyn @t: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:22 #tpac #semsyn @t: if you're making up semantics for the sake of it, it will rot. 'you might someday look nicer in a search engine' !enough<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:23 #tpac #semsyn @t: RFC 6350 - vcard4 drew on Portable Contacts, hCard experience. http://t.co/K9aXzf9R Person ignored this<br />
MartijnLinssen 02/11/2011 20:24 @kevinmarks With all due disrespect, W3C is a tech-fest run by nerds. We need business standards #tpac #semsyn<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:24 What are the main use cases for #semsyn (micro formats, microdata, RDFa), stream publishing ? ala #facebook<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:24 #tpac #semsyn @t: http://t.co/K9aXzf9R diverged from every existing vocabulary arbitrarily. and made things worse.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:25 Or HTML APIs ? #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:29 #tpac #semsyn @ciberch: having HTML APIs that make sense of the data on the page will drive this (see http://t.co/CKSXwVML )<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:31 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:32 #tpac #semsyn @t: as soon as you say indirection or subclass, you've lost most web developers @benadida: save pain for vocab developers<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:33 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: I like what python does - from foaf import date - can bring in namespace pieces from elsewhere<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: just as a browser has view source - we should have view data too<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn http://t.co/wKzNTpjI enables bringing in a vocabulary to define keys<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:35 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: you view source on something to work out how it was done and borrow it for your own site.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:39 @kevinmarks yup ideally we will move away from js apis that build iframes to pull html markup for a widget #semsyn<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 20:41 Very good session on semantic syntaxes: RDFa, microformats and microdata run by @benadida & @t. #semsyn #TPAC<br />
<br />
== related ==<br />
* [[Html-data-tf]]<br />
* ...</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Semantic_Syntaxes&diff=55182TPAC/2011/Semantic Syntaxes2011-11-02T23:05:45Z<p>Fgandon: /* notes */</p>
<hr />
<div>===Semantic Syntaxes===<br />
* Proposer: Tantek Çelik<br />
* Discussion Leader: Ben Adida<br />
* Type of session: discussion<br />
<br />
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.<br />
<br />
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.<br />
<br />
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.<br />
<br />
microformats has also been evolving with [http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 microformats 2], and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"<br />
<br />
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.<br />
<br />
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:<br />
<br />
* How are syntaxes evolving?<br />
* What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?<br />
* Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?<br />
<br />
== notes ==<br />
<br />
Scribe [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon] FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665<br />
FabGandon changed topic to : Semantics and Syntax what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida opening the session with the history of microformat the small “s” semantic web.<br />
FabGandon: ... vcard, events, places ...<br />
tantek: please capture notes persistently on the wiki page also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes#notes<br />
FabGandon: ... at the time at creative common and micro-format looked grat<br />
FabGandon: ... Ben commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat didn't look the right solution because remixing was not a use case<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa was a reaction to this<br />
FabGandon: ... many people think RDFa is only for XHTML<br />
FabGandon: ... (showing RDFa 1.1 Lite markup example<br />
FabGandon: ... http://manu.sporny.org/2011/rdfa-lite/<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa 1.1 : profiles, vocab, etc.<br />
JeniT: RDFa 1.1 Lite W3C Editors Draft is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-lite/Overview-src.html<br />
FabGandon: ... SearchMonkey 2006 Yahoo product using RDFa to customize search results http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/<br />
FabGandon: ... really nice pipeline<br />
FabGandon: tantek: Yahoo never actually deployed such appraoch in their main search engine<br />
FabGandon: ... only used in Search Monkey<br />
KevinMarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Microdata focusing on search engine by Ian Hickson http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/<br />
FabGandon: ... another syntax where you can plug any vocabulary<br />
tantek: Hixie defined a syntax in microdata, in microdata, and a licensing vocabulary and also a set of sample vocabularies, vcard in microdata, vevent (from iCalendar<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa makes it easy to mix different vocs, Microdata simplifies the way the page is adorned with property-value pairs<br />
FabGandon: ... http://schema.org/ provides a list of vocs using microdata see http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html<br />
FabGandon: ... Tantek made the point at the Schema.org workshop that multiple syntaxes is a good thing.<br />
KevinMarks: also http://www.data-vocabulary.org/ was hixie's original schema home for microdata<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: Timeline: microformats -> RDFa 1.0 -> Microdata -> RDFa 1.1 -> Microformats 2.0 each one building on the return on experience of the previous ones<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2.0 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2<br />
FabGandon: ... a surprising feedback is that even microformats are sometime a too complex syntax<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2 providing a list of optimizations to simplify markup (e.g. root classes<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid hierarchy mechanisms in the mark-up<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid class name collisons by separating the syntax from the vocabularies<br />
FabGandon: ... web sites updates by different peoples tend to lead to loss of markup<br />
KevinMarks: that happened to me with Google Profiles - someone stripped out my hCard classes :(<br />
FabGandon: ... so use prefix class names (scribe was lost here<br />
FabGandon: ... example of microformat 2 : <a class="h-card" href="http://benward.me">Ben Ward</a><br />
KevinMarks: "h-*" for root class names; "p-*" for simple (text properties; "u-*" for URL properties, e.g. "u-url", "u-photo", "u-logo"; "dt-*" for datetime properties; "e-*" for properties where the entire contained element hierarchy is the value<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: examples of prefixes h- fo root class names, p- for properties, u- for URL properties, dt- for datetime properties, e- for properties, etc<br />
hober: Can I use different prefixes for the same property in different instances of the same format?<br />
KevinMarks: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing<br />
KevinMarks: in principle, yes<br />
FabGandon: Noah : question about the simplification of the hierarchy mechanisms.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the voc with the less hierarchy are the ones that got most adopted.<br />
KevinMarks: we forgot the other semantic markup <script> with JSON in...<br />
tantek: and most reliably adopted<br />
tantek: KevinMarks - that's invisible<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa tries to reuse the RDF stack as much as possible.<br />
tantek: and duplicated (violates DRY<br />
KevinMarks: yes<br />
KevinMarks: we should discuss though, and OGP way too<br />
KevinMarks: to explain why/what<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: mapping of microdata to RDF<br />
KevinMarks: also mapping of microformats to RDF via GRDDL<br />
FabGandon: ... the mapping was removed because there is no right answer identified for now.<br />
FabGandon: ... one proposal is to come up with a form of registry of mapping<br />
FabGandon: Phil Archer: working with European commission on developing new vocs<br />
tantek: ... great that microformats and microdata to end up with the same JSON<br />
FabGandon: ... are there use cases to tell me when to use microformat vs. RDFa vs microdata ?<br />
tantek: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf<br />
KevinMarks: Monica should explain OGP<br />
JeniT: PhilA, working on it: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_an_HTML_Data_Format<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa strongest when you need to mix vocs from different sources and/or when you need the RDF stack<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the focus on syntax is not important during dev, the important question is the voc.<br />
FabGandon: ... let's move the hard questions to the vocabulary which is the most important for communication<br />
FabGandon: ... if we do our job the syntax won't be the problem.<br />
FabGandon: Monica : at social cast we use several syntaxes<br />
KevinMarks: Monica Wilkinson: OGP puts data in the <head> - violates DRY on purpose to avoid designers 'breaking things'<br />
FabGandon: Ian: the syntax also depends on who is the consumer<br />
FabGandon: Key: the problem is also that many people don't know enough about these technology to even see the syntax problem.<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: the problem is also that they don't perceive the added value to do that<br />
FabGandon: ... one way to address that is through web components<br />
FabGandon: ... encapsulate the UI value and the data value at the same time<br />
FabGandon: Ian: microdata is also useful in drag and drop actions for instance<br />
KevinMarks: the rel- microformats have become part of HTML5, per Alex's point<br />
FabGandon: Hadley Beeman: how far are we in separating the syntax and vocs ?<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa did that from the start<br />
KevinMarks: "people didn't know about it" is not a feature<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: if everyone does his own voc you end up whith babel<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: there will always a small number of small vocs extremely used and then a long tail<br />
FabGandon: (no way I can capture TimBL hyper-speach<br />
tantek: Alex Russell and TimBL having a healthy discussion about vocabularies.<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: more and more data are ending up in javascript and we need to get that back into declarative format.<br />
FabGandon: ... meaning drifts with the updates of the system<br />
FabGandon: ... I have hopes for slang not for fixed vocs.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the immediate UI experience is the best way to have high quality data<br />
KevinMarks: tantek: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
FabGandon: ... schema.org diverges from existing vocs and that’s a mistake.<br />
FabGandon: Noah: couldn't we use the validators to promote common practices<br />
FabGandon: ... alert people on what is going on<br />
FabGandon: Eric Franzon: what the state of tool dev is? plugins, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: several CMS include microformat in wordpress, RDFa in drupal, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: partial reuse should be suported, its better than nothing.<br />
KevinMarks: look at the #semsyn tag on twitter too FabGandon<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: one of the problem is the lack of indirections<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Web dev and Vocab dev are two different communities.<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: RDF engines should be able to do the follow your nose on the voc mapping.<br />
FabGandon: ... validator may be too far away but browsers have the ability to show the sources<br />
FabGandon: ... this could be where we could have thye view data and be able to correct any problem before copy paste<br />
FabGandon: Alex: who's putting the data in the page in the first place.<br />
gkellogg_: In RDFa, @vocab allows for a form of indirection<br />
FabGandon: ... think of it in evolutionary terms,<br />
tantek: Steve Zilles on web developers vs. scripts putting markup on the web.<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: the web dev are not the only one to put the data in the pages, also scripts<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: there is always a human, a human created and maintained the script.<br />
Vincent a quitté le salon (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: yes but it comes from a DB with a schema.<br />
tantek: Our experience (back at Technorati was the even data from databases (DB rots over time. Up to 30-40% of RSS/Atom feeds were broken / inconsistent with the *visible* HTML pages.<br />
tantek: Databases / scripts are not long term.<br />
<br />
<br />
Twitter Archive Dump<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:22 breakout session #semsyn at #w3c #tpac what syntax to use to add semantic information to HTML http://t.co/cOLcNHwy<br />
JeniT 02/11/2011 19:23 @fabien_gandon Are you going to live-tweet? #semsyn?<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:24 #tpac #semsyn @benadida is explaining #microformats history - the lower case semantic web http://t.co/OK2uwNaV<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:26 @JeniT on irc.w3.org:6665 channel #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:28 #tpac #semsyn claims @benadida remixing fields from other schemas was not a #microformats goal<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 19:32 RDFa lite 1.1 - W3C Editor's Draft 30 October 2011, via @jeniT http://t.co/FKCteMBR #linkeddata #semsyn #TPAC<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:35 energetic discussions with Ian is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
eyeonprofit 02/11/2011 19:36 RT @kevinmarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
bsletten 02/11/2011 19:40 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:40 #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:43 #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:44 #tpac #semsyn @t now explaining the http://t.co/T8obHriv - now simpler and more coherent. washes brighter.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 19:44 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:46 #tpac #semsyn @t: every social networking site has a name, photo and URL per person, so we can assume p-name u-url and u-photo for h-card<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:47 #tpac #semsyn @t: the more complex and hierarchical the syntax is, the more it reduces data quality (per Guha)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:48 #tpac #semsyn @t there was no way to write a generic #microformats parser - with http://t.co/T8obHriv this is possible<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:01 #tpac #semsyn @benadida RDFa is at its best when you want to mix already-existing vocabularies without seeking consensus or need RDF stack<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:02 #tpac #semsyn @t the right thing to do is develop an open vocabulary first, then worry about the syntactic mapping to #microformats et al<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:06 #tpac #semsyn @t the vocabulary is about agreement; people stripping out code is a syntax issue<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell:we get to a point where the search engine pipeline and the end-user are seeing different things on the page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell: when you mark up with #microfromats et al you aren't directly addressing the primary user of your page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: we should treat these syntaxes as things that should be in HTML eventually and become first class<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: data we mark up is probabalistically semantic - not first-person semantic<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:14 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:16 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
LogicalB0T 02/11/2011 20:16 Fascinating. RT @kevinmarks - #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:18 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: I see more and more data in JSON on the web, and if we want a declarative form people make a second version<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:19 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:20 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: meaning drifts over time - we're not going to get there by defining ontologies ahead of time<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:21 #tpac #semsyn @t: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:22 #tpac #semsyn @t: if you're making up semantics for the sake of it, it will rot. 'you might someday look nicer in a search engine' !enough<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:23 #tpac #semsyn @t: RFC 6350 - vcard4 drew on Portable Contacts, hCard experience. http://t.co/K9aXzf9R Person ignored this<br />
MartijnLinssen 02/11/2011 20:24 @kevinmarks With all due disrespect, W3C is a tech-fest run by nerds. We need business standards #tpac #semsyn<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:24 What are the main use cases for #semsyn (micro formats, microdata, RDFa), stream publishing ? ala #facebook<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:24 #tpac #semsyn @t: http://t.co/K9aXzf9R diverged from every existing vocabulary arbitrarily. and made things worse.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:25 Or HTML APIs ? #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:29 #tpac #semsyn @ciberch: having HTML APIs that make sense of the data on the page will drive this (see http://t.co/CKSXwVML )<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:31 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:32 #tpac #semsyn @t: as soon as you say indirection or subclass, you've lost most web developers @benadida: save pain for vocab developers<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:33 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: I like what python does - from foaf import date - can bring in namespace pieces from elsewhere<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: just as a browser has view source - we should have view data too<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn http://t.co/wKzNTpjI enables bringing in a vocabulary to define keys<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:35 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: you view source on something to work out how it was done and borrow it for your own site.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:39 @kevinmarks yup ideally we will move away from js apis that build iframes to pull html markup for a widget #semsyn<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 20:41 Very good session on semantic syntaxes: RDFa, microformats and microdata run by @benadida & @t. #semsyn #TPAC<br />
<br />
== related ==<br />
* [[Html-data-tf]]<br />
* ...</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Open_Gov_Data&diff=55181TPAC/2011/Open Gov Data2011-11-02T23:02:11Z<p>Fgandon: Created page with "=Open Gov Data Break Out Session="</p>
<hr />
<div>=Open Gov Data Break Out Session=</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011&diff=55180TPAC/20112011-11-02T23:01:26Z<p>Fgandon: /* Session Grid */</p>
<hr />
<div>[http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ TPAC 2011] (a [[Events|W3C event]]) takes place 31 Oct to 4 Nov 2011 in Santa Clara, California. The Plenary Day is 2 November.<br />
<br />
This year the [[TPAC2011-Committee|TPAC2011 Program Committee]] has adopted a plenary day structure that encourages meeting participants to drive the agenda. Most of the day will consist of sessions chosen and led by participants. We encourage people to share their ideas in this wiki. This wiki also provides more operational information about the day.<br />
<br />
[[TPAC2011/FAQ| FAQ: Questions?]]<br />
<br />
==Plenary Day Structure==<br />
<br />
The [[TPAC2011-Committee|TPAC2011 Program Committee]] is using a [[TPAC2011-Planning]] workspace to further develop the details.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"<br />
|-<br />
! Time<br />
! Activity<br />
! Notes<br />
|-<br />
| 08:30-09:00<br />
| Jeff Jaffe on [[TPAC2011/Successes and Challenges|Successes and Challenges]] ([http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/jj-tpac-20111102.pdf slides in PDF])<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| 09:00-09:30<br />
| Plenary topic #1: [[TPAC2011/Web and Television|Web and Television]] <br />
| Mark Vickers ([http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/webtv-tpac-20111102.pdf combined slides with Clarke]), Chair; Giuseppe Pascale, Opera ([http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/gp-hntf-usecases.html slides]); Clarke Stevens (CableLabs)<br />
|-<br />
| 09:30-10:00<br />
| Plenary topic #2: [[TPAC2011/Web Content Interoperability|Web Content Interoperability]] <br />
| Bryan Sullivan, Chair; Wilhelm Joys Andersen (Opera), Claudio Venezia (TIM), Soonho Lee (SK Telecom), Kai-Dietrich Scheppe (Deutsche Telekom)<br />
|-<br />
| 10:00-11:15<br />
| Agenda building<br />
| 10 min explanation of BarCamp-style intros, session proposing, participant-driven schedule grid.<br />
|-<br />
| 11:15-12:00 <br />
| Breakout 1<br />
| 8 Rooms available for the day.<br />
|- <br />
| 12:00-13:30<br />
| Lunch<br />
|<br />
|- <br />
| 13:30-14:30<br />
| Breakout 2<br />
| (8 rooms - see below for breakout grid details)<br />
|- <br />
| 14:30-15:30<br />
| Breakout 3 <br />
| (8 rooms)<br />
|- <br />
| 15:30-16:30<br />
| Breakout 4<br />
| (8 rooms)<br />
|- <br />
| 16:30-17:15<br />
| Sharing and advocacy plenary<br />
| Allow 15 more minutes?<br />
|- <br />
| 17:15-17:30<br />
| Tim Berners-Lee Wrap-up plenary<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Plenary Day Agenda Ideas==<br />
<br />
The program committee has pre-selected the cross-group plenary topics and a small handful of breakout session proposals:<br />
<br />
* [[TPAC2011/PlenaryBreakouts]] has the list of selected breakouts<br />
<br />
Attendees were encouraged to brainstorm session ideas in advance of the meeting, both for cross-group plenary topics and for the breakout sessions:<br />
<br />
* [[TPAC2011/SessionIdeas]] has the full list of proposals<br />
<br />
We invite you to leave comments in the wiki in support of sessions or suggesting modifications. For the most part, actual breakout sessions will be determined by those present the day of the event, who will be free to propose sessions they've developed or new ideas. Please see the session page for more information about schedule and selection.<br />
<br />
==Session Grid==<br />
BarCamp/BreakOut Session Grid<br />
<br />
'''This is a ''copy'' of the physical grid in the Plenary Room.''' Proposals are posted/managed on the physical grid. Please update this table only to reflect the actual physical grid.<br />
<br />
<br />
* Note: (*) means pre-selected.<br />
* Chairs, please identify a scribe and take notes in a new wiki page for your session. We encourage you to present that summary at the end of the day in the sharing plenary session.<br />
<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"<br />
|-<br />
! time<br />
! Grand Ballroom A (GBA)<br />
! GBB<br />
! GBC<br />
! GBD<br />
! GBE<br />
! California Ballroom 1 (CB1)<br />
! CB2<br />
! CB3<br />
|-<br />
| 11:15-12:00 <br />
|[[TPAC2011/API Design Approaches and the Rationales for Them]] (*) [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#apidesign #apidesign]<br />
| Testing in web browsers. James Graham and PLH [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#testing #testing]<br />
| Global participation [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#global #global]<br />
| Developer documentation. Molly and Doug. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#webdocs #webdocs]<br />
| [http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Adjusting_to_explosion_of_input_methods Adjusting to explosion of input methods]. Judy and Kim. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#inputtypes #inputtypes]<br />
| Social Business Jam. Alan and Steve. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#socialbizjam #socialbizjam]<br />
| Challenge of identity in Web. M. Mani. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#identity #identity]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Semantic Syntaxes]] (*)<br />
|- <br />
| 13:30-14:30<br />
| [http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas#Publishing_and_Linking_on_the_Web Is there a right to link?] Dan Appelquist [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#righttolink #righttolink]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Building Apps in the Cloud]] (*)<br />
| Internet of things [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#iot #iot]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Agile Standardization]] [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#agile #agile]<br />
| Content protection. Mark. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#webcp #webcp]<br />
| Accessibility Q&A and Tips. Char. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#a11y #a11y]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Advances in Social Network Standardization]] (*)<br />
| HTML WG decision policy. PLH. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#html-wg #html-wg]<br />
|- <br />
| 14:30-15:30<br />
| What jquery and js developers want from web stds. Paul and Yehuda. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#jquery #jquery]<br />
| Declarative 3D. Johannes and Don and Kristen. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#dec3d #dec3d]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Web-based Digital Signage]] (*)<br />
| HTML5 AV Club. Kevin [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#htmlav #htmlav]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Linked data]]. Alexandre. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#linkeddata #linkeddata]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Revisiting how W3C creates standards]] #process (*)<br />
| Web operating system challenges. Taisuke. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#wosch #wosch]<br />
| <br />
|- <br />
| 15:30-16:30<br />
| Web Apis and Accessibility. Raman and Charles. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#winteract #winteract]<br />
| <br />
| Fixing schedule delays. Jeff Jaffe. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#schedule #schedule]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/HTML5 and Games]] (*) [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#games #games]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/W3C Publications Ecosystem]] (*) [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#pubs #pubs]<br />
| Crypto API and Identity WG chartering - Privacy and Security issues. Nick/Halpin/Roessler. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#privacy #privacy]<br />
| Demos. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#demos #demos]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Open Gov Data]]. Hadley. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#opendata #opendata]<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Overflow sessions==<br />
<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"<br />
|-<br />
! time<br />
! Other rooms<br />
! Bar 104<br />
! Lobby<br />
! Poolside<br />
|-<br />
! 11:15-12:00<br />
| <br />
| <br />
| <br />
| <br />
|-<br />
! 13:30-14:30<br />
| [http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Component_Model Web Component Model]. #webapps in Room 1234<br />
| <br />
| <br />
! Swim!<br />
|-<br />
! 14:30-15:30<br />
| Web communication. Kepend Li. #webcomm<br />
| HTML5 UI mapping to platform accessibility APIs [http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-api-map/overview.html]. #aapi. Cynthia<br />
| Converge address book ... Web TV. #cab<br />
| Measuring the Web. Steve Bratt. #windex<br />
|-<br />
! 15:30-16:30<br />
| <br />
| Web first. Downsize the W3C, spin out sem web. Alex Russell. #webfirst<br />
| Multi-screen Web. Hiroyuki Aizu. #multiscreen<br />
| Registries. Debbie Dahl. #registries.<br />
|}<br />
<ul class="show_items"><br />
* Grand Ballrooms hold ~40<br />
* California Ballrooms hold ~35<br />
</ul></div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Linked_data&diff=55176TPAC/2011/Linked data2011-11-02T22:06:07Z<p>Fgandon: /* Agenda */</p>
<hr />
<div>= Linked Data Break out Session =<br />
<br />
== Agenda ==<br />
* who's here? why?<br />
* (open) linked data / semantic web<br />
* use cases, why I (ie. my organization) do Linked Data<br />
* Linked Enterprise Data Patterns http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/<br />
* timbl's five stars of Linked Data<br />
<br />
== Minutes ==</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Linked_data&diff=55175TPAC/2011/Linked data2011-11-02T22:05:32Z<p>Fgandon: /* Agenda */</p>
<hr />
<div>= Linked Data Break out Session =<br />
<br />
== Agenda ==<br />
* who's here? why? [from betehess]<br />
* (open) linked data / semantic web<br />
* use cases, why I (ie. my organization) do Linked Data<br />
* Linked Enterprise Data Patterns http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/<br />
* timbl's five stars of Linked Data<br />
<br />
== Minutes ==</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Linked_data&diff=55174TPAC/2011/Linked data2011-11-02T22:04:47Z<p>Fgandon: /* Linked Data Break out Session */</p>
<hr />
<div>= Linked Data Break out Session =<br />
<br />
== Agenda ==<br />
1. who's here? why? [from betehess]<br />
2. (open) linked data / semantic web [from betehess]<br />
3. use cases, why I (ie. my organization) do Linked Data [from betehess]<br />
4. Linked Enterprise Data Patterns http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/ [from betehess]<br />
5. timbl's five stars of Linked Data [from betehess]<br />
<br />
== Minutes ==</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Linked_data&diff=55173TPAC/2011/Linked data2011-11-02T22:02:47Z<p>Fgandon: /* = Linked Data Break out Session */</p>
<hr />
<div>= Linked Data Break out Session =</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Linked_data&diff=55172TPAC/2011/Linked data2011-11-02T22:02:29Z<p>Fgandon: Created page with "===== Linked Data Break out Session ===="</p>
<hr />
<div>===== Linked Data Break out Session ====</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011&diff=55171TPAC/20112011-11-02T22:01:32Z<p>Fgandon: /* Session Grid */</p>
<hr />
<div>[http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ TPAC 2011] (a [[Events|W3C event]]) takes place 31 Oct to 4 Nov 2011 in Santa Clara, California. The Plenary Day is 2 November.<br />
<br />
This year the [[TPAC2011-Committee|TPAC2011 Program Committee]] has adopted a plenary day structure that encourages meeting participants to drive the agenda. Most of the day will consist of sessions chosen and led by participants. We encourage people to share their ideas in this wiki. This wiki also provides more operational information about the day.<br />
<br />
[[TPAC2011/FAQ| FAQ: Questions?]]<br />
<br />
==Plenary Day Structure==<br />
<br />
The [[TPAC2011-Committee|TPAC2011 Program Committee]] is using a [[TPAC2011-Planning]] workspace to further develop the details.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"<br />
|-<br />
! Time<br />
! Activity<br />
! Notes<br />
|-<br />
| 08:30-09:00<br />
| Jeff Jaffe on [[TPAC2011/Successes and Challenges|Successes and Challenges]] ([http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/jj-tpac-20111102.pdf slides in PDF])<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| 09:00-09:30<br />
| Plenary topic #1: [[TPAC2011/Web and Television|Web and Television]] <br />
| Mark Vickers ([http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/webtv-tpac-20111102.pdf combined slides with Clarke]), Chair; Giuseppe Pascale, Opera ([http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/gp-hntf-usecases.html slides]); Clarke Stevens (CableLabs)<br />
|-<br />
| 09:30-10:00<br />
| Plenary topic #2: [[TPAC2011/Web Content Interoperability|Web Content Interoperability]] <br />
| Bryan Sullivan, Chair; Wilhelm Joys Andersen (Opera), Claudio Venezia (TIM), Soonho Lee (SK Telecom), Kai-Dietrich Scheppe (Deutsche Telekom)<br />
|-<br />
| 10:00-11:15<br />
| Agenda building<br />
| 10 min explanation of BarCamp-style intros, session proposing, participant-driven schedule grid.<br />
|-<br />
| 11:15-12:00 <br />
| Breakout 1<br />
| 8 Rooms available for the day.<br />
|- <br />
| 12:00-13:30<br />
| Lunch<br />
|<br />
|- <br />
| 13:30-14:30<br />
| Breakout 2<br />
| (8 rooms - see below for breakout grid details)<br />
|- <br />
| 14:30-15:30<br />
| Breakout 3 <br />
| (8 rooms)<br />
|- <br />
| 15:30-16:30<br />
| Breakout 4<br />
| (8 rooms)<br />
|- <br />
| 16:30-17:15<br />
| Sharing and advocacy plenary<br />
| Allow 15 more minutes?<br />
|- <br />
| 17:15-17:30<br />
| Jeff/Tim Wrap-up plenary<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Plenary Day Agenda Ideas==<br />
<br />
The program committee has pre-selected the cross-group plenary topics and a small handful of breakout session proposals:<br />
<br />
* [[TPAC2011/PlenaryBreakouts]] has the list of selected breakouts<br />
<br />
Attendees were encouraged to brainstorm session ideas in advance of the meeting, both for cross-group plenary topics and for the breakout sessions:<br />
<br />
* [[TPAC2011/SessionIdeas]] has the full list of proposals<br />
<br />
We invite you to leave comments in the wiki in support of sessions or suggesting modifications. For the most part, actual breakout sessions will be determined by those present the day of the event, who will be free to propose sessions they've developed or new ideas. Please see the session page for more information about schedule and selection.<br />
<br />
==Session Grid==<br />
BarCamp/BreakOut Session Grid<br />
<br />
'''This is a ''copy'' of the physical grid in the Plenary Room.''' Proposals are posted/managed on the physical grid. Please update this table only to reflect the actual physical grid.<br />
<br />
<br />
* Note: (*) means pre-selected.<br />
* Chairs, please identify a scribe and take notes in a new wiki page for your session. We encourage you to present that summary at the end of the day in the sharing plenary session.<br />
<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"<br />
|-<br />
! time<br />
! Grand Ballroom A (GBA)<br />
! GBB<br />
! GBC<br />
! GBD<br />
! GBE<br />
! California Ballroom 1 (CB1)<br />
! CB2<br />
! CB3<br />
|-<br />
| 11:15-12:00 <br />
|[[TPAC2011/API Design Approaches and the Rationales for Them]] (*) [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#apidesign #apidesign]<br />
| Testing in web browsers. James Graham and PLH [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#testing #testing]<br />
| Global participation [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#global #global]<br />
| Developer documentation. Molly and Doug. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#webdocs #webdocs]<br />
| [[http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Adjusting_to_explosion_of_input_methods Adjusting to explosion of input methods]]. Judy and Kim. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#inputtypes #inputtypes]<br />
| Social Business Jam. Alan and Steve. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#socialbizjam #socialbizjam]<br />
| Challenge of identity in Web. M. Mani. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#identity #identity]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Semantic Syntaxes]] (*)<br />
|- <br />
| 13:30-14:30<br />
| [http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas#Publishing_and_Linking_on_the_Web Is there a right to link?] Dan Appelquist [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#righttolink #righttolink]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Building Apps in the Cloud]] (*)<br />
| Internet of things [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#iot #iot]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Agile Standardization]] [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#agile #agile]<br />
| Content protection. Mark. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#webcp #webcp]<br />
| Accessibility Q&A and Tips. Char. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#a11y #a11y]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Advances in Social Network Standardization]] (*)<br />
| HTML WG decision policy. PLH. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#html-wg #html-wg]<br />
|- <br />
| 14:30-15:30<br />
| What jquery and js developers want from web stds. Paul and Yehuda. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#jquery #jquery]<br />
| Declarative 3D. Johannes and Don and Kristen. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#dec3d #dec3d]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Web-based Digital Signage]] (*)<br />
| HTML5 AV Club. Kevin [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#htmlav #htmlav]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Linked data]]. Alexandre. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#linkeddata #linkeddata]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/Revisiting how W3C creates standards]] #process (*)<br />
| Web operating system challenges. Taisuke. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#wosch #wosch]<br />
| <br />
|- <br />
| 15:30-16:30<br />
| Web Apis and Accessibility. Raman and Charles. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#winteract #winteract]<br />
| <br />
| Fixing schedule delays. Jeff Jaffe. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#schedule #schedule]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/HTML5 and Games]] (*) [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#games #games]<br />
| [[TPAC2011/W3C Publications Ecosystem]] (*) [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#pubs #pubs]<br />
| Crypto API and Identity WG chartering - Privacy and Security issues. Nick/Halpin/Roessler. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#privacy #privacy]<br />
| Demos. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#demos #demos]<br />
| Open gov data. Hadley. [http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#opendata #opendata]<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Overflow sessions==<br />
<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"<br />
|-<br />
! time<br />
! Other rooms<br />
! Bar 104<br />
! Lobby<br />
! Poolside<br />
|-<br />
! 11:15-12:00<br />
| <br />
| <br />
| <br />
| <br />
|-<br />
! 13:30-14:30<br />
| [http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Component_Model Web Component Model]. #webapps in Room 1234<br />
| <br />
| <br />
! Swim!<br />
|-<br />
! 14:30-15:30<br />
| Web communication. Kepend Li. #webcomm<br />
| HTML5 UI mapping to platform accessibility APIs [http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-api-map/overview.html]. #aapi. Cynthia<br />
| Converge address book ... Web TV. #cab<br />
| Measuring the Web. Steve Bratt. #windex<br />
|-<br />
! 15:30-16:30<br />
| <br />
| Web first. Downsize the W3C, spin out sem web. Alex Russell. #webfirst<br />
| Multi-screen Web. Hiroyuki Aizu. #multiscreen<br />
| Registries. Debbie Dahl. #registries.<br />
|}<br />
<ul class="show_items"><br />
* Grand Ballrooms hold ~40<br />
* California Ballrooms hold ~35<br />
</ul></div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Semantic_Syntaxes&diff=55159TPAC/2011/Semantic Syntaxes2011-11-02T21:02:10Z<p>Fgandon: /* notes */</p>
<hr />
<div>===Semantic Syntaxes===<br />
* Proposer: Tantek Çelik<br />
* Discussion Leader: Ben Adida<br />
* Type of session: discussion<br />
<br />
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.<br />
<br />
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.<br />
<br />
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.<br />
<br />
microformats has also been evolving with [http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 microformats 2], and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"<br />
<br />
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.<br />
<br />
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:<br />
<br />
* How are syntaxes evolving?<br />
* What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?<br />
* Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?<br />
<br />
== notes ==<br />
<br />
Scribe [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon] FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665<br />
FabGandon a hange le sujet en : Semantics and Syntax what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida opening the session with the history of microformat the small “s” semantic web.<br />
FabGandon: ... vcard, events, places ...<br />
tantek: please capture notes persistently on the wiki page also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes#notes<br />
FabGandon: ... at the time at creative common and micro-format looked grat<br />
FabGandon: ... Ben commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat didn't look the right solution because remixing was not a use case<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa was a reaction to this<br />
FabGandon: ... many people think RDFa is only for XHTML<br />
FabGandon: ... (showing RDFa 1.1 Lite markup example<br />
FabGandon: ... http://manu.sporny.org/2011/rdfa-lite/<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa 1.1 : profiles, vocab, etc.<br />
JeniT: RDFa 1.1 Lite W3C Editors Draft is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-lite/Overview-src.html<br />
FabGandon: ... SearchMonkey 2006 Yahoo product using RDFa to customize search results http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/<br />
FabGandon: ... really nice pipeline<br />
FabGandon: tantek: Yahoo never actually deployed such appraoch in their main search engine<br />
FabGandon: ... only used in Search Monkey<br />
KevinMarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Microdata focusing on search engine by Ian Hickson http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/<br />
FabGandon: ... another syntax where you can plug any vocabulary<br />
tantek: Hixie defined a syntax in microdata, in microdata, and a licensing vocabulary and also a set of sample vocabularies, vcard in microdata, vevent (from iCalendar<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa makes it easy to mix different vocs, Microdata simplifies the way the page is adorned with property-value pairs<br />
FabGandon: ... http://schema.org/ provides a list of vocs using microdata see http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html<br />
FabGandon: ... Tantek made the point at the Schema.org workshop that multiple syntaxes is a good thing.<br />
KevinMarks: also http://www.data-vocabulary.org/ was hixie's original schema home for microdata<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: Timeline: microformats -> RDFa 1.0 -> Microdata -> RDFa 1.1 -> Microformats 2.0 each one building on the return on experience of the previous ones<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2.0 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2<br />
FabGandon: ... a surprising feedback is that even microformats are sometime a too complex syntax<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2 providing a list of optimizations to simplify markup (e.g. root classes<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid hierarchy mechanisms in the mark-up<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid class name collisons by separating the syntax from the vocabularies<br />
FabGandon: ... web sites updates by different peoples tend to lead to loss of markup<br />
KevinMarks: that happened to me with Google Profiles - someone stripped out my hCard classes :(<br />
FabGandon: ... so use prefix class names (scribe was lost here<br />
FabGandon: ... example of microformat 2 : <a class="h-card" href="http://benward.me">Ben Ward</a><br />
KevinMarks: "h-*" for root class names; "p-*" for simple (text properties; "u-*" for URL properties, e.g. "u-url", "u-photo", "u-logo"; "dt-*" for datetime properties; "e-*" for properties where the entire contained element hierarchy is the value<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: examples of prefixes h- fo root class names, p- for properties, u- for URL properties, dt- for datetime properties, e- for properties, etc<br />
hober: Can I use different prefixes for the same property in different instances of the same format?<br />
KevinMarks: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing<br />
KevinMarks: in principle, yes<br />
FabGandon: Noah : question about the simplification of the hierarchy mechanisms.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the voc with the less hierarchy are the ones that got most adopted.<br />
KevinMarks: we forgot the other semantic markup <script> with JSON in...<br />
tantek: and most reliably adopted<br />
tantek: KevinMarks - that's invisible<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa tries to reuse the RDF stack as much as possible.<br />
tantek: and duplicated (violates DRY<br />
KevinMarks: yes<br />
KevinMarks: we should discuss though, and OGP way too<br />
KevinMarks: to explain why/what<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: mapping of microdata to RDF<br />
KevinMarks: also mapping of microformats to RDF via GRDDL<br />
FabGandon: ... the mapping was removed because there is no right answer identified for now.<br />
FabGandon: ... one proposal is to come up with a form of registry of mapping<br />
FabGandon: Phil Archer: working with European commission on developing new vocs<br />
tantek: ... great that microformats and microdata to end up with the same JSON<br />
FabGandon: ... are there use cases to tell me when to use microformat vs. RDFa vs microdata ?<br />
tantek: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf<br />
KevinMarks: Monica should explain OGP<br />
JeniT: PhilA, working on it: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_an_HTML_Data_Format<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa strongest when you need to mix vocs from different sources and/or when you need the RDF stack<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the focus on syntax is not important during dev, the important question is the voc.<br />
FabGandon: ... let's move the hard questions to the vocabulary which is the most important for communication<br />
FabGandon: ... if we do our job the syntax won't be the problem.<br />
FabGandon: Monica : at social cast we use several syntaxes<br />
KevinMarks: Monica Wilkinson: OGP puts data in the <head> - violates DRY on purpose to avoid designers 'breaking things'<br />
FabGandon: Ian: the syntax also depends on who is the consumer<br />
FabGandon: Key: the problem is also that many people don't know enough about these technology to even see the syntax problem.<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: the problem is also that they don't perceive the added value to do that<br />
FabGandon: ... one way to address that is through web components<br />
FabGandon: ... encapsulate the UI value and the data value at the same time<br />
FabGandon: Ian: microdata is also useful in drag and drop actions for instance<br />
KevinMarks: the rel- microformats have become part of HTML5, per Alex's point<br />
FabGandon: Hadley Beeman: how far are we in separating the syntax and vocs ?<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa did that from the start<br />
KevinMarks: "people didn't know about it" is not a feature<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: if everyone does his own voc you end up whith babel<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: there will always a small number of small vocs extremely used and then a long tail<br />
FabGandon: (no way I can capture TimBL hyper-speach<br />
tantek: Alex Russell and TimBL having a healthy discussion about vocabularies.<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: more and more data are ending up in javascript and we need to get that back into declarative format.<br />
FabGandon: ... meaning drifts with the updates of the system<br />
FabGandon: ... I have hopes for slang not for fixed vocs.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the immediate UI experience is the best way to have high quality data<br />
KevinMarks: tantek: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
FabGandon: ... schema.org diverges from existing vocs and that’s a mistake.<br />
FabGandon: Noah: couldn't we use the validators to promote common practices<br />
FabGandon: ... alert people on what is going on<br />
FabGandon: Eric Franzon: what the state of tool dev is? plugins, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: several CMS include microformat in wordpress, RDFa in drupal, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: partial reuse should be suported, its better than nothing.<br />
KevinMarks: look at the #semsyn tag on twitter too FabGandon<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: one of the problem is the lack of indirections<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Web dev and Vocab dev are two different communities.<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: RDF engines should be able to do the follow your nose on the voc mapping.<br />
FabGandon: ... validator may be too far away but browsers have the ability to show the sources<br />
FabGandon: ... this could be where we could have thye view data and be able to correct any problem before copy paste<br />
FabGandon: Alex: who's putting the data in the page in the first place.<br />
gkellogg_: In RDFa, @vocab allows for a form of indirection<br />
FabGandon: ... think of it in evolutionary terms,<br />
tantek: Steve Zilles on web developers vs. scripts putting markup on the web.<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: the web dev are not the only one to put the data in the pages, also scripts<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: there is always a human, a human created and maintained the script.<br />
Vincent a quitté le salon (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: yes but it comes from a DB with a schema.<br />
tantek: Our experience (back at Technorati was the even data from databases (DB rots over time. Up to 30-40% of RSS/Atom feeds were broken / inconsistent with the *visible* HTML pages.<br />
tantek: Databases / scripts are not long term.<br />
<br />
<br />
Twitter Archive Dump<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:22 breakout session #semsyn at #w3c #tpac what syntax to use to add semantic information to HTML http://t.co/cOLcNHwy<br />
JeniT 02/11/2011 19:23 @fabien_gandon Are you going to live-tweet? #semsyn?<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:24 #tpac #semsyn @benadida is explaining #microformats history - the lower case semantic web http://t.co/OK2uwNaV<br />
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:26 @JeniT on irc.w3.org:6665 channel #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:28 #tpac #semsyn claims @benadida remixing fields from other schemas was not a #microformats goal<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 19:32 RDFa lite 1.1 - W3C Editor's Draft 30 October 2011, via @jeniT http://t.co/FKCteMBR #linkeddata #semsyn #TPAC<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:35 energetic discussions with Ian is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
eyeonprofit 02/11/2011 19:36 RT @kevinmarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name #tpac #semsyn<br />
bsletten 02/11/2011 19:40 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:40 #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:43 #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:44 #tpac #semsyn @t now explaining the http://t.co/T8obHriv - now simpler and more coherent. washes brighter.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 19:44 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:46 #tpac #semsyn @t: every social networking site has a name, photo and URL per person, so we can assume p-name u-url and u-photo for h-card<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:47 #tpac #semsyn @t: the more complex and hierarchical the syntax is, the more it reduces data quality (per Guha)<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:48 #tpac #semsyn @t there was no way to write a generic #microformats parser - with http://t.co/T8obHriv this is possible<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:01 #tpac #semsyn @benadida RDFa is at its best when you want to mix already-existing vocabularies without seeking consensus or need RDF stack<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:02 #tpac #semsyn @t the right thing to do is develop an open vocabulary first, then worry about the syntactic mapping to #microformats et al<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:06 #tpac #semsyn @t the vocabulary is about agreement; people stripping out code is a syntax issue<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell:we get to a point where the search engine pipeline and the end-user are seeing different things on the page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell: when you mark up with #microfromats et al you aren't directly addressing the primary user of your page<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: we should treat these syntaxes as things that should be in HTML eventually and become first class<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: data we mark up is probabalistically semantic - not first-person semantic<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:14 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:16 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
LogicalB0T 02/11/2011 20:16 Fascinating. RT @kevinmarks - #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:18 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: I see more and more data in JSON on the web, and if we want a declarative form people make a second version<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:19 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:20 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: meaning drifts over time - we're not going to get there by defining ontologies ahead of time<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:21 #tpac #semsyn @t: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:22 #tpac #semsyn @t: if you're making up semantics for the sake of it, it will rot. 'you might someday look nicer in a search engine' !enough<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:23 #tpac #semsyn @t: RFC 6350 - vcard4 drew on Portable Contacts, hCard experience. http://t.co/K9aXzf9R Person ignored this<br />
MartijnLinssen 02/11/2011 20:24 @kevinmarks With all due disrespect, W3C is a tech-fest run by nerds. We need business standards #tpac #semsyn<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:24 What are the main use cases for #semsyn (micro formats, microdata, RDFa), stream publishing ? ala #facebook<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:24 #tpac #semsyn @t: http://t.co/K9aXzf9R diverged from every existing vocabulary arbitrarily. and made things worse.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:25 Or HTML APIs ? #semsyn<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:29 #tpac #semsyn @ciberch: having HTML APIs that make sense of the data on the page will drive this (see http://t.co/CKSXwVML )<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this<br />
tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:31 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:32 #tpac #semsyn @t: as soon as you say indirection or subclass, you've lost most web developers @benadida: save pain for vocab developers<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:33 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: I like what python does - from foaf import date - can bring in namespace pieces from elsewhere<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: just as a browser has view source - we should have view data too<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn http://t.co/wKzNTpjI enables bringing in a vocabulary to define keys<br />
kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:35 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: you view source on something to work out how it was done and borrow it for your own site.<br />
ciberch 02/11/2011 20:39 @kevinmarks yup ideally we will move away from js apis that build iframes to pull html markup for a widget #semsyn<br />
hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 20:41 Very good session on semantic syntaxes: RDFa, microformats and microdata run by @benadida & @t. #semsyn #TPAC<br />
<br />
== related ==<br />
* [[Html-data-tf]]<br />
* ...</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/Semantic_Syntaxes&diff=55156TPAC/2011/Semantic Syntaxes2011-11-02T20:53:06Z<p>Fgandon: /* notes */</p>
<hr />
<div>===Semantic Syntaxes===<br />
* Proposer: Tantek Çelik<br />
* Discussion Leader: Ben Adida<br />
* Type of session: discussion<br />
<br />
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.<br />
<br />
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.<br />
<br />
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.<br />
<br />
microformats has also been evolving with [http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 microformats 2], and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"<br />
<br />
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.<br />
<br />
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:<br />
<br />
* How are syntaxes evolving?<br />
* What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?<br />
* Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?<br />
<br />
== notes ==<br />
<br />
Scribe [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon] FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665<br />
FabGandon a hange le sujet en : Semantics and Syntax what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida opening the session with the history of microformat the small “s” semantic web.<br />
FabGandon: ... vcard, events, places ...<br />
tantek: please capture notes persistently on the wiki page also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Semantic_Syntaxes#notes<br />
FabGandon: ... at the time at creative common and micro-format looked grat<br />
FabGandon: ... Ben commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat didn't look the right solution because remixing was not a use case<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa was a reaction to this<br />
FabGandon: ... many people think RDFa is only for XHTML<br />
FabGandon: ... (showing RDFa 1.1 Lite markup example<br />
FabGandon: ... http://manu.sporny.org/2011/rdfa-lite/<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa 1.1 : profiles, vocab, etc.<br />
JeniT: RDFa 1.1 Lite W3C Editors Draft is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-lite/Overview-src.html<br />
FabGandon: ... SearchMonkey 2006 Yahoo product using RDFa to customize search results http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/<br />
FabGandon: ... really nice pipeline<br />
FabGandon: tantek: Yahoo never actually deployed such appraoch in their main search engine<br />
FabGandon: ... only used in Search Monkey<br />
KevinMarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Microdata focusing on search engine by Ian Hickson http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/<br />
FabGandon: ... another syntax where you can plug any vocabulary<br />
tantek: Hixie defined a syntax in microdata, in microdata, and a licensing vocabulary and also a set of sample vocabularies, vcard in microdata, vevent (from iCalendar<br />
FabGandon: ... RDFa makes it easy to mix different vocs, Microdata simplifies the way the page is adorned with property-value pairs<br />
FabGandon: ... http://schema.org/ provides a list of vocs using microdata see http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html<br />
FabGandon: ... Tantek made the point at the Schema.org workshop that multiple syntaxes is a good thing.<br />
KevinMarks: also http://www.data-vocabulary.org/ was hixie's original schema home for microdata<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: Timeline: microformats -> RDFa 1.0 -> Microdata -> RDFa 1.1 -> Microformats 2.0 each one building on the return on experience of the previous ones<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2.0 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2<br />
FabGandon: ... a surprising feedback is that even microformats are sometime a too complex syntax<br />
FabGandon: ... microformat 2 providing a list of optimizations to simplify markup (e.g. root classes<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid hierarchy mechanisms in the mark-up<br />
FabGandon: ... avoid class name collisons by separating the syntax from the vocabularies<br />
FabGandon: ... web sites updates by different peoples tend to lead to loss of markup<br />
KevinMarks: that happened to me with Google Profiles - someone stripped out my hCard classes :(<br />
FabGandon: ... so use prefix class names (scribe was lost here<br />
FabGandon: ... example of microformat 2 : <a class="h-card" href="http://benward.me">Ben Ward</a><br />
KevinMarks: "h-*" for root class names; "p-*" for simple (text properties; "u-*" for URL properties, e.g. "u-url", "u-photo", "u-logo"; "dt-*" for datetime properties; "e-*" for properties where the entire contained element hierarchy is the value<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: examples of prefixes h- fo root class names, p- for properties, u- for URL properties, dt- for datetime properties, e- for properties, etc<br />
hober: Can I use different prefixes for the same property in different instances of the same format?<br />
KevinMarks: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing<br />
KevinMarks: in principle, yes<br />
FabGandon: Noah : question about the simplification of the hierarchy mechanisms.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the voc with the less hierarchy are the ones that got most adopted.<br />
KevinMarks: we forgot the other semantic markup <script> with JSON in...<br />
tantek: and most reliably adopted<br />
tantek: KevinMarks - that's invisible<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa tries to reuse the RDF stack as much as possible.<br />
tantek: and duplicated (violates DRY<br />
KevinMarks: yes<br />
KevinMarks: we should discuss though, and OGP way too<br />
KevinMarks: to explain why/what<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: mapping of microdata to RDF<br />
KevinMarks: also mapping of microformats to RDF via GRDDL<br />
FabGandon: ... the mapping was removed because there is no right answer identified for now.<br />
FabGandon: ... one proposal is to come up with a form of registry of mapping<br />
FabGandon: Phil Archer: working with European commission on developing new vocs<br />
tantek: ... great that microformats and microdata to end up with the same JSON<br />
FabGandon: ... are there use cases to tell me when to use microformat vs. RDFa vs microdata ?<br />
tantek: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf<br />
KevinMarks: Monica should explain OGP<br />
JeniT: PhilA, working on it: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_an_HTML_Data_Format<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa strongest when you need to mix vocs from different sources and/or when you need the RDF stack<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the focus on syntax is not important during dev, the important question is the voc.<br />
FabGandon: ... let's move the hard questions to the vocabulary which is the most important for communication<br />
FabGandon: ... if we do our job the syntax won't be the problem.<br />
FabGandon: Monica : at social cast we use several syntaxes<br />
KevinMarks: Monica Wilkinson: OGP puts data in the <head> - violates DRY on purpose to avoid designers 'breaking things'<br />
FabGandon: Ian: the syntax also depends on who is the consumer<br />
FabGandon: Key: the problem is also that many people don't know enough about these technology to even see the syntax problem.<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: the problem is also that they don't perceive the added value to do that<br />
FabGandon: ... one way to address that is through web components<br />
FabGandon: ... encapsulate the UI value and the data value at the same time<br />
FabGandon: Ian: microdata is also useful in drag and drop actions for instance<br />
KevinMarks: the rel- microformats have become part of HTML5, per Alex's point<br />
FabGandon: Hadley Beeman: how far are we in separating the syntax and vocs ?<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: RDFa did that from the start<br />
KevinMarks: "people didn't know about it" is not a feature<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: if everyone does his own voc you end up whith babel<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: there will always a small number of small vocs extremely used and then a long tail<br />
FabGandon: (no way I can capture TimBL hyper-speach<br />
tantek: Alex Russell and TimBL having a healthy discussion about vocabularies.<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way"<br />
KevinMarks: timbl: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss<br />
FabGandon: Alex Russell: more and more data are ending up in javascript and we need to get that back into declarative format.<br />
FabGandon: ... meaning drifts with the updates of the system<br />
FabGandon: ... I have hopes for slang not for fixed vocs.<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: the immediate UI experience is the best way to have high quality data<br />
KevinMarks: tantek: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better<br />
FabGandon: ... schema.org diverges from existing vocs and that’s a mistake.<br />
FabGandon: Noah: couldn't we use the validators to promote common practices<br />
FabGandon: ... alert people on what is going on<br />
FabGandon: Eric Franzon: what the state of tool dev is? plugins, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: several CMS include microformat in wordpress, RDFa in drupal, etc.<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: partial reuse should be suported, its better than nothing.<br />
KevinMarks: look at the #semsyn tag on twitter too FabGandon<br />
FabGandon: Greg Kellogg: one of the problem is the lack of indirections<br />
FabGandon: Ben Adida: Web dev and Vocab dev are two different communities.<br />
FabGandon: TimBL: RDF engines should be able to do the follow your nose on the voc mapping.<br />
FabGandon: ... validator may be too far away but browsers have the ability to show the sources<br />
FabGandon: ... this could be where we could have thye view data and be able to correct any problem before copy paste<br />
FabGandon: Alex: who's putting the data in the page in the first place.<br />
gkellogg_: In RDFa, @vocab allows for a form of indirection<br />
FabGandon: ... think of it in evolutionary terms,<br />
tantek: Steve Zilles on web developers vs. scripts putting markup on the web.<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: the web dev are not the only one to put the data in the pages, also scripts<br />
FabGandon: Tantek: there is always a human, a human created and maintained the script.<br />
Vincent a quitté le salon (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep<br />
FabGandon: Steve Zilles: yes but it comes from a DB with a schema.<br />
tantek: Our experience (back at Technorati was the even data from databases (DB rots over time. Up to 30-40% of RSS/Atom feeds were broken / inconsistent with the *visible* HTML pages.<br />
tantek: Databases / scripts are not long term.<br />
<br />
== related ==<br />
* [[Html-data-tf]]<br />
* ...</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/HTML5_and_Games&diff=55115TPAC/2011/HTML5 and Games2011-11-02T17:10:51Z<p>Fgandon: </p>
<hr />
<div>=== HTML5 and Games ===<br />
<br />
Chaired by: Ted Leung, Disney<br />
<br />
This session will discuss issues that arise when trying to build games using HTML5. We may also discuss formation of a Community Group around this topic. <br />
What are the standardization needs?<br />
<br />
* sharing results of [http://openmediaweb.eu/2011/09/14/workshop-on-html-next-for-gaming/ "HTML.next for gaming" workshop] (to happen 24 Sept., in Varsaw)<br />
* note that the [http://www.newgameconf.com/ Newgame conference] is happening 1-2 Nov. in SF<br />
* note (from Fabien Gandon) that the [http://www2012.org/ WWW 2012] will be in Lyon, a region with a lot of game developers and a number of events (including in the W3C track, see Marie-Claire Forgue about that) will be about HTML5 and Games.</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=TPAC/2011/HTML5_and_Games&diff=55109TPAC/2011/HTML5 and Games2011-11-02T16:56:10Z<p>Fgandon: </p>
<hr />
<div>=== HTML5 and Games ===<br />
<br />
Chaired by: Ted Leung, Disney<br />
<br />
This session will discuss issues that arise when trying to build games using HTML5. We may also discuss formation of a Community Group around this topic. <br />
What are the standardization needs?<br />
<br />
* sharing results of [http://openmediaweb.eu/2011/09/14/workshop-on-html-next-for-gaming/ "HTML.next for gaming" workshop] (to happen 24 Sept., in Varsaw)<br />
* note that the [http://www.newgameconf.com/ Newgame conference] is happening 1-2 Nov. in SF<br />
* note (from Fabien Gandon) that the [http://www2012.org/ WWW 2012] will be in Lyon a region with a lot of game developers and a number of events (including in the W3C track, see Marie-Claire Forgue about that) are around HTML5 and Games.</div>Fgandonhttps://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Camps:LODCampW3CTrack&diff=44372Camps:LODCampW3CTrack2010-04-29T19:01:57Z<p>Fgandon: </p>
<hr />
<div>= Linked Open Data (LOD) - W3C Track @ WWW2010 =<br />
<br />
== Context ==<br />
The Linked Open Data Camp, organized by W3C, will be held at the upcoming [http://www2010.org 19th International World Wide Web Conference] in Raleigh, North Carolina (USA), on '''29 April 2010'''. See [http://www.w3.org/2010/04/w3c-track.html W3C Track @ WWW2010] for a more detailed agenda.<br />
<br />
The event will feature a mix of structured content (talks, demos, lightning talks, etc.) and unstructured content. Topics of discussion for the two afternoon sessions will be selected at the camp during the mroning session. This Wiki page is intended to collect suggestions in advance and to record the discussions that will be held on site.<br />
<br />
If you're willing to lead a discussion, please add your name to a topic below. Thx!<br />
<br />
== Pre-camp Topic suggestions ==<br />
Feel free to edit this section and append your own suggestion to the list or refine an already suggested topic!<br />
<br />
* Vocabularies<br />
* Identity (alternatives and refinement for owl:sameAs)<br />
* Crawling through the LOD<br />
* Visualizing<br />
* User Interfaces<br />
* User scripts for server-side Semantic Apps<br />
* Methods of mapping public databases to LOD<br />
* Metadata<br />
<br />
<span id="LT"></span><br />
== Lightning Talks (LTs) ==<br />
<br />
Anything from announcements, controversial statements, project proposals, observations, etc. is great material for a lightning talk. <br />
<br />
Old idea for talks: one slide (optional) and two minutes time (sharp). <br />
<br />
Maybe a better idea: as many slides as you want, 3 minutes talk, 2 minutes questions/answers. Since we currently have 17 talks and 90 minutes allocated, that's about right.<br />
<br />
Suggested procedure: add your talk/topic here. Include link to slides, so we generally wont have to switch machines.<br />
<br />
= Agenda = <br />
<br />
== Morning Keynotes (10:30) == <br />
<br />
* TimBL, W3C [http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_berners_lee_on_the_next_web.html Tim's TED talk]<br />
* Thomas Roessler, W3C domain lead<br />
* Ivan Herman, W3C (perhaps)<br />
<br />
== Lightning Talks (11:00) ==<br />
<br />
'''Add/edit yourself here. Link you slides from here. Three minutes to present, two minutes for discussion.'''<br />
<br />
# eGov opportunities John Sheridan or Jeni Tennison ([http://data.gov.uk/ data.gov.uk]) ([http://www.jenitennison.com/talks/www2010/gov-LOD-lightning-talk.pdf one slide])<br />
# Raw Government Data Now: from Linkable Data to Linked Data - [[Li Ding]] ([http://data-gov.tw.rpi.edu/ data-gov] experience on US gov data, [http://data-gov.tw.rpi.edu/2010/2010-w3c-lod-datagov-lightning.pdf one slide])<br />
# Legislation and Linked Data - John Sheridan ([http://www.jenitennison.com/talks/www2010/John%20Sheridan%20Lightning%20Talk.pdf one slide])<br />
# Publish experiment data and their provenance as Linked Data - Jun Zhao ([http://users.ox.ac.uk/~zool0770/presentations/lt.pdf one slide])<br />
# Crawling the LOD with [http://code.google.com/p/ldspider/ ldspider] -- Andreas Harth ([http://harth.org/andreas/2010/04/ldspider/ldspider.ppt slides])<br />
# Linked Data Structures -- Niko Popitsch ([http://dsnotify.org/misc/2010_lds_ldowlightning_popitsch.pptx slides])<br />
# Using RIF (Rule Interchange Format) with Linked Data -- [[Sandro Hawke]] ([http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif/Overview.html#%2814%29 one slide])<br />
# Dataset Dynamics/Change Notifications -- Juergen Umbrich ([http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2026310/lightning_talk.pdf two slides])<br />
# LOD For Models & [http://www.omgwiki.org/architecture-ecosystem/doku.php OMG Architecture Ecosystem SIG] - Cory Casanave [http://www.omgwiki.org/architecture-ecosystem/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=architecture_ecosystem_sig_upodate.ppt Slides]<br />
# [http://mementoweb.org Linked Data and Memento] - Herbert Van de Sompel, Michael Nelson, Robert Sanderson<br />
# Financial and Business Data -- Dave Raggett ([http://esw.w3.org/images/7/7b/Linked-financial-data.pdf slides])<br />
# Do we need Hypermedia/Write-able RDF? (e.g. [http://www.markbaker.ca/2003/05/RDF-Forms/ RDF Forms], [http://esw.w3.org/PushBackDataToLegacySources PushBack], other? related: [http://amundsen.com/hypermedia/hfactor/ Hypermedia Factors]) ([http://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd4bk538_109nkffzdfn Updated slides])<br />
<br />
== Lunch (12:00) ==<br />
<br />
== Afternoon Keynote (1:30) == <br />
* Facebook's latest announcements - David Recordon<br />
<br />
== Lightning Talks, Continued (2:15) ==<br />
<br />
# [http://sameas.org/ sameAs.org] - Ian Millard / [http://esw.w3.org/HughGlaser Hugh Glaser] (2min demo: http://sameAs.org)<br />
# [http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1005-jaoo-egp/LODD.png Linked Open Drug Data] Health Care/Life Sciences opportunities (ericP)<br />
# [http://www.muninn-project.org/ The Munnin WW1 Project] - [http://www.dbdump.org/news/about Rob Warren] ([http://www.muninn-project.org/publications/muninn-lod-w3-camp.pdf one slide]) -- Dumping the contents of First World War archives as linked open data. <br />
# [http://enakting.org EnAKTing] Project - [http://4sreasoner.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ 4sresoner] - [http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ms8/ Manuel Salvadores]<br />
# Linked Data Tables (publishing RDF using WYSIWYG HTML) -- [[Sandro Hawke]] ([http://www.ldtables.org/wiki/Tutorial Tutorial])<br />
# [http://triplify.org/Challenge/2010 Triplification Challenge] deadline extended - [http://olafhartig.de/ Olaf Hartig] ([http://olafhartig.de/files/W3C_LD_Camp_LightningTalk.pdf slide])<br />
# [http://www.dotnetrdf.org dotNetRDF] RDF API for .Net Developers - Rob Vesse ([http://www.dotnetrdf.org/demos/lightning_talk.pdf one slide])<br />
# [http://www.dcc.uchile.cl/cgutierr/t.pdf Transparency Laws and Linked Data in Chile] - [http://www.dcc.uchile.cl/cgutierr Claudio Gutierrez]<br />
# [http://tw.rpi.edu/ipaw2010 The third International Provenance and Annotation Workshop late breaking contributions CFP] - Li Ding([http://tw.rpi.edu/proj/portal.wiki/images/f/fc/Cfp-ipaw-breaking.pdf one page flyer])<br />
# Linked Data API, JeniT<br />
<br />
== Planning for Breakouts (2:45) ==<br />
<br />
'''Candidates:'''<br />
<br />
# '''Government Linked Data''' (selected)<br />
# LD crawling, searching<br />
# RIF<br />
# '''[http://esw.w3.org/DatasetDynamics Dataset Dynamics], see [http://esw.w3.org/DatasetDynamics/Meetings meetings] for details''' (selected)<br />
# Writable RDF<br />
# '''Facebook / http://opengraphprotocol.org''' (selected)<br />
# Identity / owl:sameAs / SameAs.org<br />
<br />
== Afternoon Break (3:00) ==<br />
<br />
== Breakouts I (3:30) ==<br />
<br />
TBD<br />
<br />
== Reconvene (4:30) ==<br />
<br />
* breakout results<br />
* possible future plans<br />
<br />
== Adjourn (5:00) ==<br />
<br />
= People =<br />
<br />
If you're planning on participating to the camp, feel free to let other know by adding your name below:<br />
<br />
* Marie-Claire Forgue, W3C Track chair [mailto:mcf@w3.org contact]<br />
* Ivan Herman, W3C<br />
* Eric Prud'hommeaux, W3C<br />
* Tim Berners-Lee, W3C<br />
* Dave Raggett, W3C<br />
* [http://fabien.info Fabien Gandon], [http://www.inria.fr INRIA]<br />
* [[RaphaelTroncy]], EURECOM<br />
* Davy Van Deursen, Ghent University - IBBT<br />
* [http://milstan.net Milan Stankovic], Hypios.com<br />
* Harald Sack, Hasso-Plattner Institute (HPI), University of Potsdam<br />
* Jeni Tennison, The Stationery Office<br />
* Elena Montiel-Ponsoda, Ontology Engineering Group, UPM, Spain<br />
* Richard Cyganiak, DERI<br />
* [http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/~mrowe Matthew Rowe], University of Sheffield<br />
* Oshani Seneviratne, MIT<br />
* [http://www.cs.univie.ac.at/niko.popitsch Niko Popitsch], University of Vienna<br />
* [http://harth.org/andreas/ Andreas Harth], Karlsruhe Institute of Technology<br />
* [http://www.deri.ie/about/team/member/j%FCrgen_umbrich/ Jürgen Umbrich], DERI, NUI Galway <br />
* Philipp Cimiano, CITEC, Bielefeld University<br />
* [http://esw.w3.org/HughGlaser Hugh Glaser], Seme4 Ltd.<br />
* Ian Millard, University of Southampton<br />
* [http://public.lanl.gov Herbert Van de Sompel], Los Alamos National Laboratory<br />
* Jörg Waitelonis, Hasso-Plattner Institute (HPI), University of Potsdam<br />
* [http://www.cs.univie.ac.at/bernhard.haslhofer Bernhard Haslhofer], University of Vienna<br />
* Li Ding, RPI<br />
* [http://amundsen.com/blog/ Mike Amundsen]<br />
* Karen Myers, W3C Development Officer<br />
* Jeff Jaffe, CEO, W3C<br />
* Jane Greenberg, [http://ils.unc.edu/mrc/ SILS/Metadata Research Center], UNC, Chapel Hill<br />
* John Sheridan, The [UK] National Archives / data.gov.uk<br />
* CoryCasanave, Model Driven Solutions<br />
* Rob Sanderson, Los Alamos National Laboratory<br />
* [http://www.cs.odu.edu/~mln Michael L. Nelson], Old Dominion University<br />
* [http://olafhartig.de Olaf Hartig], Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin<br />
* David Recordon, Facebook<br />
* Jun Zhao, Oxford University<br />
* [http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ms8/ Manuel Salvadores], University of Southampton<br />
* [http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/people/dsc Dave Challis], University of Southampton<br />
* Ian Jacobi, MIT<br />
* Rob Vesse, University of Southampton<br />
* Claudio Venezia, Telecom Italia<br />
* [http://purl.org/net/mdean/ Mike Dean], BBN<br />
* [http://www.dcc.uchile.cl/cgutierr Claudio Gutierrez], University of Chile<br />
* [http://www.dbdump.org/news/about Rob Warren], University of Zurich</div>Fgandon