- From: Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
- Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:10:22 -0700
- To: W3C Style <www-style@w3.org>
- Cc: w3c-css-wg <w3c-css-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CACQ=j+eryHmOootMYwYPbW6YeZkM8a8dAP7gAs1rbi_cBpQobQ@mail.gmail.com>
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SV_MEETING_TITLE
29 Feb 2012
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-irc
Attendees
Present
nimbu, glazou, plinss, jdaggett, glenn, florianr, smfr,
sylvaing, +1.650.253.aaaa, stearns, Oliver_Goldman,
TabAtkins_, hober, krit, Bert, antonp, arronei, danielweck,
kimberly, SteveZ, ChrisL, +8521616aabb, +1.408.421.aacc,
+1.415.766.aadd, dbaron, +47.23.69.aaee, kojiishi, dstorey,
Rossen, alexmog_, +1.650.766.aaff, bradk, [Microsoft],
+47.23.69.aagg, howcome
Regrets
Chair
glazou
Scribe
glenn
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Z-Axis intersection for transforms
2. [5]css3 images
* [6]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<TabAtkins_> fantasai: The issues I didn't log were raised after the
end of the LC period, iirc.
<tantek> greetings
<tantek> only on IRC this morning
<TabAtkins_> yo, tantek
<plinss> hola
<TabAtkins_> Sigh. If Zakim understands the question, why does me
make you rephrase it?
<tantek> TabAtkins_ lazy bot programmer is lazy.
<TabAtkins_> But it's actually *more* work to do that!
<tantek> and failed to obey 2nd law
<jdaggett> ack
<TabAtkins_> lolwut?
<fantasai> TabAtkins: That doesn't mean you don't file them.
<fantasai> TabAtkins: You addressed them, didn't you? If you're
going to ignore them because they're after the deadline, fine.
<fantasai> TabAtkins: But if not, they need to be filed and
processed.
<smfr> a 386
<fantasai> TabAtkins: The only time we've ever rejected a comment
due to being after the deadline is CSS2.1, fwiw.
<TabAtkins_> fantasai: My understanding was that the DoC was for LC
issues.
<fantasai> TabAtkins: And that was because if we didn't, we'd never
finish.
<TabAtkins_> Outside of the LC comment period, they're just regular
comments, and are dealt with in the normal way.
<fantasai> TabAtkins: You're addressing them between LC and CR, they
get filed.
<TabAtkins_> I can do that, sure. But don't complain about me not
filing them when the instructions about what to file were apparently
unclear. ^_^
<scribe> scribe: glenn
<glazou> ScribeNick: glenn
?WD of Flexbox: like to talk about MQ
<nimbu> florianr is florianr
alex: can we publish flexbox
sylvaing: gradients on agenda?
<tantek> TabAtkins, between end of LC period and when you publish
the CR it's a bit of a gray area as to what's "required". I think
it's up to editor judgment, in which case consider if addressing the
comment will improve the spec, and in particular avoid a CR-LC-CR
cycle.
glazou: only normative reference on agenda
<danielweck> (again)
glazou: yes if possible
<dstorey> one of those new people is me. Going to try to work out
which
<TabAtkins_> tantek: "Addressing" and "filing in the DoC" are very
different things. I do the former. I didn't realize I had to do the
latter.
alex: discussed LC on flexbox
florianr: would like a WD
alex: will publish by tuesday
chrisl: WD or what?
<TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Publich Flexbox as WD.
RESOLVE: publish flexbox as WD
<ChrisL> ACTION: ChrisL to publish flexbox wd [recorded in
[7]http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-453 - Publish flexbox wd [on Chris Lilley
- due 2012-03-07].
<tantek> TabAtkins, agreed. If it's a cross-WG comment then I tend
to be more liberal toward including in the DoC as it tends to
improve inter-WG relations and reduce static/friction in future
interactions.
<smfr>
[8]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html
[8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html
glazou: post msg from david with list of issues
<tantek> TabAtkins, do you have a URL/webpage example of the new
flexbox syntax/functionality/algorithm that shows it "working" (even
prefixed) in 2+ implementations? (just curious what state of spec vs
implementation is.
dbaron: order as in email
... animation of images and gradients
... rules in spec about animation of gradients
... work in css4 images about that, should defer to that and remove
from spec
<tantek> thanks smfr for the link
florianr: what is meant by defer?
<ChrisL> I agree with all the ones in the postpone category, having
read through them
florianr: impls free to do what the want
<sylvaing> ChrisL, +1
listening
go ahead
<dbaron> Tab: people will depend on whatever the implementations do,
no matter what the spec says
<tantek> dbaron's clustering of issues postpone/easy/medium/hard is
a good approach for helping advance these specs quickly.
smfr: webkit has cross fade
... will do transitions using cross fade, agrees should be undefined
how accomplished
dbaron: thinks that wk is impl newer spec
... should not have normative statement if will soon override
chrisl what is wrong with saying undefined?
worried if you say can't animate, or if you say can animate but not
what happens
fantasai: should specify that whether and how it's animated is
undefined
... then mention how it will be defined in future spec
chrisl: if spec says you should not try to animate this, will have
no test
dbaron: css1/2 have said ignore props not defined in spec
... yet css3 is defining new props
glazou: has to drop/rejoin due to sip problem, peter pls chair in
mean time
<dbaron> dbaron: I think that's fine
<glazou> (sorry, no change, very difficult to hear you all, sound is
cut)
<glazou> Bert: probably
<smfr> i'm fine with florianr's wording
???: such and such is not expected to animate, but different ? will
defines how this works
dbaron: are we talking just about images/gradients or everything not
animatable?
... thinks we're talking about everything, concerned about putting
in big loop hole
<florianr> This level of css does not expect XXX to animate.
Different modules or later levels may define how to animate them.
chrisl: (1) animatable and known, (2) not animatable and known, (3)
others not sure
???: is it clear on (2) vs (3)
scribe: rather be specific when possible
dbaron: ok if we have statement about limited set of props
... should i take an action to write that statement?
... most of the rest aren't properties
glazou: would like a decision
<smfr> i agree
chrisl: agrees with entire list of things to postpone
... to which sylviang agreed
<smfr> [9]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14609
[9] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14609
dbaron: transitions about value types you can't interpolate
... things would animate that people aren't expecting to animate
Tab: can define special timing model for discrete things
chrisl: in SVG discrete changes interpolate
dbaron: are people not worried about this?
... will put constraints on what we can do
tab: if transitions immediately after non-zero, then should work
<smfr> transition: all 2s 2s;
tab: find with leaving or fixing, simple to fix
smfr: thinks not simple to fix
tab: shouldn't have transition all
florianr: suggests postponing
dbaron: should work within constraints just now, is ok with
postponing
<smfr> i'm ok with postponing
RESOLUTION: postponing ??? items
<smfr> [10]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15844
[10] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15844
<dbaron pls s/// ??? for me>
<dbaron> s/???/the items listed as postpone in
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html/
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html/
tnx
tab: can't having impls doing different things...
dbaron: don't want webkit behavior
<dbaron> smfr: WebKit treats 'auto' as '0'
dbaron: how to match lists of different lengths
... in transition * properties
... background is the length that matters
<ChrisL> agree with the truncated/repeated proposal
dbaron: use beginning of list ignore the rest
<smfr> agreed
dbaron: proposes ???
<dbaron> RESOLVED: resolve bug 14604 as proposed
dbaron: next, reverse animation using opposite timing function,
people ask for feature
... postpone adding such feature, but add example showing how it can
be used now
... a little confusing, but not too hard
glazou: good compromise
<dbaron> RESOLVED: resolve bug 14611 as proposed
dbaron: spec mentions grid and zoom props
<smfr> agreed
dbaron: grid isn't any spec, zoom is; propose removing refs
<ChrisL> agreed
tab: agree
<dbaron> RESOLVED: resolve bug 14618 and 14626 as proposed
<smfr> agreed
dbaron: vertical align is animatable (according to spec), but what
does animating keywords mean?
florianr: should we say "no keywords" or just enumerate the subset
of what can animate?
<dbaron> RESOLVED: resolve bug 14988 as proposed
dbaron: last of easy items
<smfr> [12]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15838
[12] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15838
<Bert> (Animating from 'top' to 'bottom' makes sense, but doesn't
seem needed.)
dbaron: no transition when both transition delay and ??? are zero
seconds
<ChrisL> agree on the zero transition
dbaron: nothing says it
tab: doesn't like because it is discontinuous behavior
dbaron: the default is delay/duration not transition property
tab: ok, need to make not a transition
smfr: does the spec say this?
<dbaron> smfr: implication of transition not occurring is that no
events fire?
<fantasai> tab: oh, we default to transition-property: all; and
transition-duration / ?? to zero
<Bert> ". By default the value is ‘0s’, meaning that the transition
is immediate"
<dbaron> smfr: does the spec say that?
<TabAtkins_> Specifically, the current "no transitions" default is
implemention with a property of "all" and a delay/duration of "0".
<Bert> " (i.e. there will be no animation)."
fantasai: why do we have default of zero?
<fantasai> s/zero/all\/zero/
bert: specs no animation in that case
tab: events are important part
<speaker pls summarize long statement in irc>
<smfr> i approve
<TabAtkins_> smfr: [explained the original reasoning between the
current defaults vs defaulting to a property of 'none' and some
default duration]
<dbaron> RESOLVED: resolve bug 15838 as proposed
<Bert> smfr: [there are usability reasons for defaults of 'all' and
'0s']
glazou: moving to Z-axis intersection issue for transforms
... is dirk here?
<smfr>
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1202.html
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1202.html
Z-Axis intersection for transforms
florianr: opera does not have impl of 3d transforms
... in favor of saying do intersection in spec
... not in favor of saying should
dbaron: talked to Robert O'Callahan, and he agreed the correct
behavior (plane splitting) is obvious but we don't do it correctly
now, but we should
tab: would like to do correctly, impl is tricky
<smfr> RESOLVED: transform spec should make intersection behavior a
MUST
jdaggett: possible problem with mirroring specs
... multiview?
<fantasai> scribenick: fantasai
<glenn> ... proposal to mirror to csswg, thinks it is bad idea
jdaggett: proposal was to host specs on csswg.org
<glenn> <jdaggett pls speak up>
jdaggett: means all ..., and all editor's drafts have to point to
csswg.org
... I don't see that using Apache is necessary. We can use <meta> to
do redirection.
... Not ideal, but better than having csswg.org be a point of
failure
<glenn> jdaggett: not necessary to use .htaccess facilities
<tantek> I agree, I'd rather delay the source control transition if
it means we can avoid one or more temporary places for specs.
<scribe> Scribenick: glenn
plinss: timing to be finalized today
... infrastructure in place
... wishes better docs, but working on them today
... no addl burden on editors
jdaggett: questions using URLs to refer to csswg.org host
<tantek> I have not had time to retry the hg instructions again to
see where I get stuck next btw.
plinss: suggests reverse proxy on dev.w3.org
bert: pretty sure its possible
<dbaron> (Why do a reverse proxy on a w3c server if we could just do
a checkout on a w3c server?)
plinss: this is just a stop gap, i.e., using csswg.org
<tantek> exactly, what dbaron said
jdaggett: doesn't see need for interim step
<tantek> can we delay transition and avoid stopgaps?
<tantek> what's the rush?
plinss: if we use reverse proxy, nobody will know
<tantek> I agree with the concerns that jdaggett has raised.
plinss: will start with proxy on dev.w3.org to csswg.org
jdaggett: doesn't like having csswg.org as a point of failure
plinss: only for a few weeks/months
jdaggett: doesn't see this step as necessary
<dbaron> If there's a chance we can make this happen in a matter of
days, I think we should try to get that to happen.
<dbaron> I think it's preferable to have the editors drafts have
w3.org URLs
plinss: what's the big deal?
jdaggett: sounds like extra work for nothing
... had breakage previously
<going in loops here... glazou?>
<fantasai> plinss: They'll be served from dev.w3.org URLs
glazou: pls take to email or irc after call
<fantasai> plinss: so why do you care
css3 images
fantasai: DoC but won't get through them today
<dbaron> [14]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/issues-lc-2012 is
the thing to discuss?
[14] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/issues-lc-2012
fantasai: all should review DoC and discuss issues during next
telecon
<dbaron> er, to review?
<TabAtkins_> [15]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/issues-lc-2012
[15] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/issues-lc-2012
fantasai: suggests talking now about taking V&U to LC
glazou: reds need review
fantasai: all are pretty tricky
tab: need other people looking at them
glazou: action on all to review DoC and comment
<sylvaing> title of css3-images DoC is 'CSS Backgrounds and Borders
Level 3'
glazou: what else to say now about this doc?
tab: just discuss DoC
florianr: like to go back to MQ
... current TS is not latest version
fantasai: already has action item to do this
florianr: will write results for opera
<fantasai>
[16]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JanMar/0309.
html
[16] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JanMar/0309.html
florianr: also some editorial changes, should republish
... question about when
<florianr>
[17]http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2012/02/28/precision-engine
[17] http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2012/02/28/precision-engine
fantasai: suggests passing (opera) build first
... go to LC then hopefully PR
<fantasai> fantasai: or are they only editorial?
<fantasai> florianr: Borderline
<fantasai> florianr: Not changing what they say, just what people
understand them to say
florianr: a request on ML for example
fantasai: no opinion
<BobBie> hi
florianr: suggest not adding this specific example because it refers
to feature not referenced
... request for example using rem unit
glazou: think is not needed
dbaron: but may help clarify spec text, units never based on results
of declarations
... unambiguous that rem behaves same way
<dbaron> Add to "Relative units in media queries are based on the
initial value."
dbaron: add to sentence "relative units ..."
florianr: sounds good, will edit and republish
<is there a resolution? pls someone type into irc>
<glazou> RESOLUTION: Add to "Relative units in media queries are
based on the initial value."
dbaron: previous version link in draft points to previous previous
version
chrisl: if all editorial, don
... don't need another LC
... or is proposal to go to PR?
dbaron: possible in one week
... depends on impl reports
florianr: can have IRs tomorrow
fantasai: agreed
dbaron: mozilla passes all the tests in the repo
florianr: should we list previous editors as current editors or
previous?
... currently listed as previous
<jdaggett> previous editors seems fine
glazou: no opinion
tab: list as previous
stevez: long tradition
<dbaron> though sometimes the "previous editors" is editors for a
previous level of the spec, which is sort of different...
<Bert> RESOLVED: move editors of MQ who are no longer active to
"Former editor"
<dbaron> fantasai: Everybody ok with removing the comma between
attribute name and type in the attr() function?
fantasai: is everbody ok with removing comma between ? and ?
glazou: not fair to ask this now at end of call
<Bert> (I don't like it without the comma, but can live with it.)
<dbaron> peterl: We discussed it at f2f, and howcome was only
dissenter.
<dbaron> peterl: And howcome just said he's ok with it.
<is there a resolution?>
<fantasai, pls type resolution>
<dbaron> RESOLVED: publish last call of css3-values
glazou: adjourned
<fantasai> RESOLVED: drop comma between attribute name and type in
attr()
<TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: publish V&U as LCWD.
trackbot, end meeting
<fantasai> Bert, is CSS Speech CR in the pipeline yet?
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: ChrisL to publish flexbox wd [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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Found Scribe: glenn
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ScribeNicks: glenn, fantasai
Default Present: nimbu, glazou, plinss, jdaggett, glenn, florianr, smfr
, sylvaing, +1.650.253.aaaa, stearns, Oliver_Goldman, TabAtkins_, hober
, krit, Bert, antonp, arronei, danielweck, kimberly, SteveZ, ChrisL, +8
521616aabb, +1.408.421.aacc, +1.415.766.aadd, dbaron, +47.23.69.aaee, k
ojiishi, dstorey, Rossen, alexmog_, +1.650.766.aaff, bradk, [Microsoft]
, +47.23.69.aagg, howcome
Present: nimbu glazou plinss jdaggett glenn florianr smfr sylvaing +1.6
50.253.aaaa stearns Oliver_Goldman TabAtkins_ hober krit Bert antonp ar
ronei danielweck kimberly SteveZ ChrisL +8521616aabb +1.408.421.aacc +1
.415.766.aadd dbaron +47.23.69.aaee kojiishi dstorey Rossen alexmog_ +1
.650.766.aaff bradk [Microsoft] +47.23.69.aagg howcome
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html/
WARNING: No meeting title found!
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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting
Got date from IRC log name: 29 Feb 2012
Guessing minutes URL: [23]http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-minutes.html
People with action items: chrisl
[23] http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-css-minutes.html
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Received on Wednesday, 29 February 2012 18:11:17 UTC