ISSUE-92: Re-write the Table section to remove extraneous material, and provide cleaner description

cleanuptable

Re-write the Table section to remove extraneous material, and provide cleaner description

State:
CLOSED
Product:
pre-LC1 HTML 5 spec
Raised by:
Shelley Powers
Opened on:
2010-01-08
Description:
The table element has a long explanation about how to explain the structure of
HTML Tables.

The example isn't the best, because we should be using more meaningful
examples, where the explanation would be more beneficial. However, this would
require a larger table, and more space.

A better approach would be to remove this section, entirely. This section
should be included in an HTML5 Primer.

What the section should have is a demonstration of the structure of one table,
with explanation of each element in the table, and hopefully demonstrating by
what is meant by a data table -- not a table for illustration purposes, or a
table for layout.

More text will not make tables any clearer, or ensure people use the element in
the proper way. What's needed is a good, clean, succinct example, with a clear
explanation of each element of the table, including the summary attribute.

A good explanation of how to use summary properly would do wonders for the
table's accessibility. A meandering description of how people can use anything
_but_ summary, is only going to cause conflict with previous versions of the
markup, with existing screenreader implementations, and runs counter to the
expressed interest and wishes of every accessibility person on the HTML WG team
-- and beyond.

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/cleanuptable

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-table-element]
Related Actions Items:
No related actions
Related emails:
  1. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-05-12: Actions, New Issues, Closing Issues, TF reports, Last Call schedule (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-05-11)
  2. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-04-12: Actions, New Issues, Closing Issues, TF reports, Last Call schedule (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-05-11)
  3. Working Group Decision on ISSUE-92 cleanuptable (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2011-03-10)
  4. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2011-03-10: Action items, issues, surveys and decisions (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2011-03-08)
  5. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-10-21: status of actions, calls, issues, heartbeat drafts, and TPAC (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-10-20)
  6. RE: {minutes} HTML WG Telecon 2010-10-14 actions, status of calls, issues and bugs, heartbeat drafts, task force reports (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-10-14)
  7. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-10-14 actions, status of calls, issues and bugs, heartbeat drafts, task force reports (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-10-13)
  8. Fwd: ISSUE-92 The Table description (from julian.reschke@gmx.de on 2010-10-07)
  9. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-09-23 status of calls, issues and bugs, heartbeat drafts (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-10-06)
  10. {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-09-30 status of calls, issues and bugs, Task Force Reports (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-09-28)
  11. ISSUE-92: cleanuptable - Straw Poll for Objections (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-09-28)
  12. RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2010-08-04 [task force week] (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-08-05)
  13. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-08-04)
  14. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-08-04 [task force week] (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-08-04)
  15. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-08-04)
  16. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-05-27)
  17. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from faulkner.steve@gmail.com on 2010-05-27)
  18. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-05-27)
  19. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-05-26)
  20. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-05-21)
  21. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-05-21)
  22. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-05-21)
  23. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-05-21)
  24. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-05-20)
  25. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-20: Surveys close, Publishing new Working Drafts (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-19)
  26. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-05-17)
  27. minutes, 2010-05-13 HTML WG telcon (from mike@w3.org on 2010-05-14)
  28. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-13: Action items, surveys, Task Force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-12)
  29. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-21)
  30. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-22: Action items, issues, decision policy, A11Y recommendations, polyglot spec (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-21)
  31. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-22: Action items, issues, decision policy, A11Y recommendations, polyglot spec (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-21)
  32. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-21)
  33. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-04-21)
  34. Re: ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-21)
  35. ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-20)
  36. Re: ISSUE-92 being blocked by ISSUE-32 (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-14)
  37. ISSUE-92 being blocked by ISSUE-32 (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-14)
  38. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-13)
  39. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-13)
  40. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-12)
  41. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-04-12)
  42. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-12)
  43. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-04-12)
  44. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-04-12)
  45. [minutes] 2010-04-01 HTML Teleconference (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-04-01)
  46. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-04-01)
  47. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-03-31)
  48. Re: Change proposals uploaded to Wiki - URLs, suggestions on Issue 92 table (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-31)
  49. Re: ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-03-31)
  50. ISSUE-92 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-03-31)
  51. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-03-30)
  52. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-03-30)
  53. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-03-30)
  54. [minutes] 20100325 HTML teleconference (from plh@w3.org on 2010-03-30)
  55. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-03-25: decision policy, issue status, updates from meetings, task force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-24)
  56. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-03-25: decision policy, issue status, updates from meetings, task force reports (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-03-24)
  57. Re: Breakdown of issues (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-03-12)
  58. Breakdown of issues (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-12)
  59. Extension granted on some Change Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-01-27)
  60. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-01-14: AIs, CfC/CfPs, TFs, plus: heartbeat docs (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-13)
  61. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-01-14: AIs, CfC/CfPs, TFs, plus: heartbeat docs (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-01-13)
  62. ISSUE-92 cleanuptable - Chairs Solicit Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-01-13)
  63. [Bug 8449] Remove extraneous material from Table section (from bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org on 2010-01-08)
  64. ISSUE-92 (cleanuptable): Re-write the Table section to remove extraneous material, and provide cleaner description [HTML 5 spec] (from sysbot+tracker@w3.org on 2010-01-08)

Related notes:

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/cleanuptable

Laura Carlson, 10 May 2010, 13:04:40

[rubys]: same situation for this issue

13 May 2010, 16:19:29

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0244.html
http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5977&to=5978

Sam Ruby, 9 May 2011, 09:07:01

Changelog:

Created issue 'Re-write the Table section to remove extraneous material, and provide cleaner description' nickname cleanuptable owned by Shelley Powers on product HTML 5 spec, description 'The table element has a long explanation about how to explain the structure of
HTML Tables.

The example isn't the best, because we should be using more meaningful
examples, where the explanation would be more beneficial. However, this would
require a larger table, and more space.

A better approach would be to remove this section, entirely. This section
should be included in an HTML5 Primer.

What the section should have is a demonstration of the structure of one table,
with explanation of each element in the table, and hopefully demonstrating by
what is meant by a data table -- not a table for illustration purposes, or a
table for layout.

More text will not make tables any clearer, or ensure people use the element in
the proper way. What's needed is a good, clean, succinct example, with a clear
explanation of each element of the table, including the summary attribute.

A good explanation of how to use summary properly would do wonders for the
table's accessibility. A meandering description of how people can use anything
_but_ summary, is only going to cause conflict with previous versions of the
markup, with existing screenreader implementations, and runs counter to the
expressed interest and wishes of every accessibility person on the HTML WG team
-- and beyond.
' non-public

Shelley Powers, 8 Jan 2010, 17:12:13

Status changed to 'open'

Sam Ruby, 12 Feb 2010, 20:20:44

Description changed to 'The table element has a long explanation about how to explain the structure of
HTML Tables.

The example isn't the best, because we should be using more meaningful
examples, where the explanation would be more beneficial. However, this would
require a larger table, and more space.

A better approach would be to remove this section, entirely. This section
should be included in an HTML5 Primer.

What the section should have is a demonstration of the structure of one table,
with explanation of each element in the table, and hopefully demonstrating by
what is meant by a data table -- not a table for illustration purposes, or a
table for layout.

More text will not make tables any clearer, or ensure people use the element in
the proper way. What's needed is a good, clean, succinct example, with a clear
explanation of each element of the table, including the summary attribute.

A good explanation of how to use summary properly would do wonders for the
table's accessibility. A meandering description of how people can use anything
_but_ summary, is only going to cause conflict with previous versions of the
markup, with existing screenreader implementations, and runs counter to the
expressed interest and wishes of every accessibility person on the HTML WG team
-- and beyond.

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-table-element]
'

Shelley Powers, 12 Feb 2010, 23:42:27

Description changed to 'The table element has a long explanation about how to explain the structure of
HTML Tables.

The example isn't the best, because we should be using more meaningful
examples, where the explanation would be more beneficial. However, this would
require a larger table, and more space.

A better approach would be to remove this section, entirely. This section
should be included in an HTML5 Primer.

What the section should have is a demonstration of the structure of one table,
with explanation of each element in the table, and hopefully demonstrating by
what is meant by a data table -- not a table for illustration purposes, or a
table for layout.

More text will not make tables any clearer, or ensure people use the element in
the proper way. What's needed is a good, clean, succinct example, with a clear
explanation of each element of the table, including the summary attribute.

A good explanation of how to use summary properly would do wonders for the
table's accessibility. A meandering description of how people can use anything
_but_ summary, is only going to cause conflict with previous versions of the
markup, with existing screenreader implementations, and runs counter to the
expressed interest and wishes of every accessibility person on the HTML WG team
-- and beyond.

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/cleanuptable

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-table-element]
'

Laura Carlson, 10 May 2010, 13:04:40

Product changed to pre-LC1 HTML 5 spec

Sam Ruby, 29 Jan 2011, 18:22:25

Status changed to 'closed'

Sam Ruby, 9 May 2011, 09:07:01


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