WC CR, where did get numbers?
CR from the air.
WC from wcag, defined complex tables.
BM a table used for layout should have a summary "this table used for layout."
CR yes, good to suggest to author.
WC agree.
CR add to document. finish up with "nits" e-mail.
There is no need to check a table for multiple levels of row/column headers unless the table has more than 4 rows or 4 columns. http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/IG/ert/#Technique5.2.A
WC yes, greater than 3.
/* Resolved: no need to check a table for multiple levels of row/column headers unless the table has greater than 3 rows or columns */
CR TH elements should have an ABBR attribute if the header name is greater than 15 characters. ABBR attribute values should be less than 15 characters. http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/IG/ert/#Technique5.6.A this is about 3 3 words.
WC gregory?
GR i can see a case where you want to use abbr attribute. people will want to design for visual layout. therefore, people may use abbreviations and then we need the ABBR element to expand them.
WC i have a table that the abbreviation is 20 characters. perhaps do by words - 3 words? have to be careful that don't shorten too much.
CR but may have 4 words with 5 characters.
WC ok. fine to do by characters.
/* Resolved: TH elements should have an ABBR attribute if the header name is greater than 15 characters. ABBR attribute values should be less than 15 characters. */
/* everyone agree is helpful */
CR how do we ask the user is this a layout or data table? WC had suggested, if a cell can stand on its own then layout, otherwise data.
WC need examples? test? come up with wording?
@@ WC send proposal to list for wording of prompt for author to help determine if table is layout or for data.
CR how describe linearizing
WC layout by column or row.
LK most do by row right now.
GR lynx dumps in source order.
CR so reading across in rows?
@@ GR show how some simple tables look like linearized.
LK gets more complicated when you have nesting. the tool that i posted last week, shows borders, and numbers cell in order of how it would be read by Lynx. So, follow the numbers.
WC table linearizer that daniel came up with will linearize by putting header information along with cells. this is ideal.
CR so what does it mean?
WC depends.
CR does this speak to automatic or author?
WC 5.3 applies to automatic for layout.
LK row by row.
CR if you have each paragraph in a cell, when linearized by row would not make sense.
WC so, WCAG says don't do that.
LK if the upper left and lower left paragraph in one cell, and others in right hand cell. would linearize all right.
CR read in rows.
WC because most common way to do it.
CR therefore, "do not use tables for layout unless the tables makes sense when read in rows" is equivalent to "linearized."
LK however, when have merged cells, can't really read by row. e.g. a table like the phone keypad. if 1 and 4 were merged, you can't read by row.
WC for layout, no matter read it once. for data, read it for both rows.
LK for nested tables, you would have to pop back out to read it. i find it easiest to read document source.
CR i'm thinking of a prompt to give to the user. if we say, "read in rows" they may get the idea then.
WC this is for 5.3.
@@CR write a proposal for a prompt for the author for 5.3.
CR nagging issues null alt-text. horizontal rules. ascii art.
WC /* summarizes GL discussion on null/space alt-text */
BM smart checking, some tools generate hundreds of spacer images. since all point to the same image, only flag once.
GR yes, described in Authoring Tool techniques: an alt-text registry.
BM yes, and explain consequences to the author - use the informed author approach.
@@ WC proposal to incorporate null alt-text
@@ CR start discussion on horizontal rule and ascii art.
CR hard for an author to do?
LK there is an algorithm where it is not logically necessary to have these. if you have "west central east south" then 2 divisions "male and female" then in any cells look up column to see which headers intersect. don't need additional information.
CR where is that?
LK in HTML 4. the way I understood it, you only put in that stuff when its needed.
WC can fail: see employment rate of persons with disabilities http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/disable/sipp/emprate.html table algorithm: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#h-11.4.3
@@ WC dig up GL discussions about 5.2 and how author would identify.
Next meeting is 3 January.
Happy holidays and merry new millenium!
$Date: 2000/11/08 08:17:43 $ by Wendy Chishol