W3C logo Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) logo > EOWG Home > EOWG Minutes

EOWG Meeting February 22, 2002


JB: Judy Brewer, Chair W3C WAI
HB: Harvey Bingham, Scribe consultant Digital Talking Books
SD: Sylvie DuChateau, Braillenet, Paris
AG: Audrey Gorman, consultant
SLH: Shawn Laughton Henry, Madison, Wisconsin *
SHo: Sara Horton, Dartmouth College *
EP: Ellen Perlow, Librarian, Texas Woman's University, School of Library and Information Studies, Denton Texas, eperlow@twu.edu>
LP: Lawrie Phipps, TechDis Manager, Technology for Disabilities Information Service, York, UK
HS: Henk Snetselaar, Bartemaeus Educational Institute for the Blind and partially Sighted, Netherlands

* some identifiers below may have confused SLH and SHo, as scribe was using SH: for both, until he recognized the redundancy.


AA Andrew Arch
HBj Helle Bjarnø
DS Doyle Saylor

Outreach Updates

JB: I discussed the Implementation planning page with a user, navigation was jumping.

SLH: Removed hover, to make it stop jumping.

JB: Combatting "fade factor" on WAI homepage.

LP: Education service working on education. Will be speaking at 15 to 20 conferences on accessibility awareness raising and setting minimal standards for those educational institutions. Also will be identifying UK experts to do in-depth followups. Using WAI resources pages, and have own set of slides with UK legislation.

LP: New UK legislation Special Education Needs and Disability Acts legislation is coming in September 2002.

SHo: Dartmouth College policy on accessibility coming. I believe there is no legal obligation now, as Dartmouth is a US University without public funding, I'm not a lawyer. Consider no requirement under Sect 504, possibly if Dartmouth is a place of public accommodation (PPA) then would need to conform, ADA has definition of PPA.

JB: See in implementation suite, developing organizational policy. Addresses how define scope of site.

SD: Presentation to webmasters of public sites. They say pressure to make websites look "modern". Conflict with accessibility. Need some retrofit. Menus weren't accessible. They don't want static, boring pages. Cannot force them to Will have to convince designers, who don't ask users.

SLH: Pasadena Jr. College has drop-down menus. How are these accessible? Inaccessible when an image. Can't enlarge for low-vision.

EP: Why if provide text-only version of menu. People who want this version could get it.

JB: Try to avoid text-only versions of whole pages. Unless database-driven, the text version lags the visual version.

SD: Drop-down menus are generated typically by Javascript, or DTML with layers.

SHo: Often people with screen-reader software, ALT text is OK, it doesn't help with enlarged text.

SLH: Can make text with same effect as images.

SD: Shouldn't be a show-stopper to use the images.

JB: Wrote proposal for European Commission on How to use Evaluation tools, and retrofit of old sites, and design of new sites.

Want Ten Accessibility Design Issues and Solutions

JB: Non-agenda injection, based on outreach updates. What if we did mini-tutorials?

JB: For instance, need examples, navbar with CSS, dropdowns without images, and other design problems.

HB: Authoring tools techniques should cover these.

JB: Audience for ATAG is tool builders more than their users.

LP: Would be useful to have this.

SHo: Ten of these would be useful, include tab navigation that works.

HB: Client-side image map alternative.

SLH: Nested menus, fly-out menus(dwell on one menu item causing its expansion beside the original).

SLH: Multi-column layouts.

SG: Alternatives to frames.

SHo: Using CSS effectively that work cross-platforms and browser

AG: Still having problems with alt text. List of what not to use,

HB: Tables with navigation aids.

LP: Delivering math over the web, now using XML (MathML), How use student stylesheet, with images, to help dyslexic users.

EP: How to set up keyboard shortcuts, and find out which are already set up.

HS: Solutions for navigation, two suggestions coming by email.

SHo: How to specify measurements.

SHo: Accessible forms and communicating on navigation popups.

AGENDA Checkin Feb 28, Mar 1, Cannes Mandelieu, France

BJ: Thursday morning, change to wrapup discussion on implementation planning resource suite.

JB: More on demographics?

SD: Please add links on agenda page to documents under review.

AG: Whole morning on implementation plan, including an overview.

JB: What else needs to be added in the future.

JB: Friday agenda: summary of work in Europe. Expect some new people.

JB: Blanca wants to addess setting up certification means. This in conjunction with the Quality Assurance group at W3C.

HB: Unauthorized translations?

JB: Some are contributed.

SLH: Send pointers to certification work? A Face-to-face discussion.

JB: Followup form letters for inaccessible sites.

JB: No regular phone meeting next week. Possibly do phone

SHe: Would join for form letters

HB: Can join on Thursday.

JB: Tentative meeting schedule Wednesday March 6. No meeting March 8.

JB: Who can meet Wed at 4:00: AG, SHo, SLH, HB.

CSUN EO Saturday Mar 23

HB: What are subjects of FAQ?

JB: two new FAQs: WAI in general, and using WCAG.

JB: Who will participate: EP, LH (someone would represent), AG?, HB, SHe(no),

LP: FAQ to include the "how to design" examples.

JB: We need to deal with our current scheduled deliverables.

JB: How People with Disabilities Use the Web.

HB: At the EO meeting after CSUN meeting last year on the Business case we got much good input and writing, keep on agenda as it attracted unique talent who made many contributions, but not much since.

JB: Session will be Done Sunday, March 24, 5:30 p.m.

Implementation Plan

JB: Now each page has its own navigation means. Same jump.

SHo: Why jumping.

SLH: Tab order problem? Broken in Netscape?

SLH: Hover is mouse-only to get focus to link. Get background yellow, not on tab. Use on-focus (javascript) rather than hover.

JB: Trying for redundant way to have these work.

SLH: Nothing changes with tab.

SHo: Will work on this some more. Solution was to remove the hover behavior. Can hack away more at hover.

SLH: If behaviors differ, then why bother with hover.

AG: Not comfortable with hover if need to find alternatives.

EP: Like without the hover.

LP: Could do without the hover.

JB: Likes hover.

SLH: Active and Focus in CSS. Try these to find the same effect with mouse and keyboard. Will do a quick test and email to JB trying this.

JB: Could put in CSS class/pseudoclass as way to fix the jumbing hover. Only way it jumps is on the little vertical mark.

SHO: Did some work on the software page.

Combatting Fade Factor on WAI Homepage

JB: People have more trouble including accessibility. The WAI homepage is too complex, "wanted was: how to make web pages accessible." Need to make the language more accessible.

SLH: Huge difference in the backgrounds of the potential users. Some are for the people who are really into it. What is goal of page, Who are the potential audience(s). The devotees will go deeper.

EP: What is WAI? What are the resources? News is secondary.

JB: Wanted to revisit design, different entry points for different audiences.

SLH: We can do some reorganization. Audience analysis, usability analysis, goals assessment. That would give good interim solution.

JB: Minuted and documented in miinutes. May be a change request log on homepage.

JB: People from disability organizations find too much jargon? What do we need to do to get more of them involved.

AG: Get page read by fresh eyes to get reactions. A quick win is the quick tips. How find these?

LP: Keep it jargon-free.

JB: Ask for input on WAI homepage as part of Saturday agenda.

EP: Who do we want to get into the WAI movement? What do we need to provide to draw them in further.

Sara: Can request to get hit counts on WAI sites. Search engine logs, don't have direct access to them.

JB: Now using Google, doesn't supply this information.

AG: People can consistent land somewhere to get high hit rate.

JB: Find out about search log availablilty.

Sara: Whole WAI site could use some usability redesign attention.

JB: Agreed. Won't happen until a new position gets filled. We spent months on this a year and a half ago. Awaits two open position, outreach coordinator and guidelines staff position for two groups.

JB: Usability redesign not in immediate plan. We need to get specific content out first.

AG: Full-blown redesign would take from content development. Top of page navigation usability remains a usability issue.

JB: Scenario of getting work out: Several months on Implementation Planning Resource Suite, people want this today. All we have are fragmentary drafts. The navigation should not delay this other work. First get it out, later tune the navigation usability.

AG: Get content out.

HB: Please fix the Search link to work.

Sara: Need to strip some of the on-page hover. Leave out of CSS?

Training Resource Suite

A fairly finished suite a year ago needs upgrading. Since it is an indirect component of the

Modules for Web Accessibility Training

JB: Designing accessibility sites.

JB: Concern for old documents,
Accessibility Features of HTML,
Accessibility Features of CSS,
Accessibility Features of SMIL,
Accessibility Features of SVG.

LP: Will look at these.

EP: Will look at these.

JB: Reference selecting software, rather ATAG1.0 reference.

JB: Needs to add Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility.

Sara: Give demonstration of how people with disabilities use web.

JB: In section 2.

HB: Question the audience skill level.

JB: Add note on level: intro and advanced.

Sara: Let trainers decide which are pertinent to audience.

JB: Icon to differentiate levels. Perhaps a single one, ?hurdle?, ?flag?

JB: Callin for CSUN. Reticent, as too big an audience. Awkward in larger meetings.

Copyright  ©  1998-2002 W3C (MIT, INRIA, Keio ), All Rights Reserved. W3C liability, trademark, document use and software licensing rules apply. Your interactions with this site are in accordance with our public and Member privacy statements.