Chatlog 2009-04-15

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13:46:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:46:09 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:46:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:46:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
13:46:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
13:46:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM already started
13:46:14 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
13:46:14 <trackbot> Date - 15 April 2009
13:46:21 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
13:46:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, McCarron
13:46:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Roland, ShaneM, markus, Steven, markbirbeck, trackbot, Tina
13:46:28 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:46:31 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:46:32 <Zakim> +Steven
13:46:40 <Zakim> + +
13:46:55 <markus> Zakim, is Markus
13:46:55 <Zakim> sorry, markus, I do not recognize a party named ''
13:47:15 <markus> Zakim, aaaa is Markus
13:47:15 <Zakim> +Markus; got it
13:47:40 <Roland> Agenda:
13:47:58 <Roland> Chair: Roland
13:48:08 <Roland> Regrets: Alessio, Tina
13:48:34 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #xhtml
13:49:30 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:50:11 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
13:50:42 <Steven> Topic: Actions
13:50:53 <Steven>
13:51:07 <Steven> Roland: I still have to do several...
13:51:07 <Steven> Subtopic: Action 17
13:51:27 <Steven> Roland: Action 17 may not be appropriate anymore
13:52:07 <oedipus>
13:52:19 <oedipus>
13:52:26 <Steven> Steven: Maybe put in abeyance until we know more about the activities
13:53:21 <oedipus> RM: this is whether HTML WG and XHTML2 WG should be merged?
13:53:38 <oedipus> SP: have to negotiate common position before can collaborate
13:53:55 <oedipus> RM: PlH concern is merging
13:54:24 <oedipus> SP: if we were to merge, would have to recharter to include work that has to be done - PlH thought that creating new charter would take at least 6 months
13:54:33 <oedipus> SP: process - drafting, consensus, review
13:55:10 <oedipus> SP: timetable for merging is end of year anyway -- close to when XHTML2 WG's charter runs out
13:56:37 <Steven> ACTION-17 closed
13:56:37 <trackbot> ACTION-17 create Strawman for XHTML <=> HTML5 positioning closed
13:57:15 <oedipus>
13:57:18 <Steven> Subtopic: Action 27
13:57:21 <Steven> Steven: Not done
13:57:28 <Steven> Roland: Will go into next draft?
13:57:30 <Steven> Steven: Yes
13:57:31 <Steven> Subtopic: Action 29
13:57:45 <Steven> Roland: Action 29 we won't do
13:57:48 <oedipus> (adding XInclude)
13:57:58 <Steven> ... I will write a note to a WG to record that
13:58:14 <Steven> Steven: Just close it and refer to minutes
13:58:36 <Steven> ACTION-29 closed
13:58:36 <trackbot> ACTION-29 adding XInclude closed
13:59:06 <oedipus> (access module transition
13:59:07 <Steven> Subtopic: Action 31
13:59:13 <Steven> Roland: ACTION 31, are we waiting for something?
13:59:46 <Steven> Shane: We were waiting for reply from I18N
13:59:51 <Steven> ... I think it was finished
13:59:55 <oedipus> "We recently received your responses to our comments on the XHTML Access Module and we reviewed them at a recent teleconference [1]. While some progress has been made, we're still not entirely satisfied with the results. Our focus is on Section 3.1.2 [2]"
14:00:23 <oedipus>
14:00:57 <oedipus>
14:01:01 <Steven> Shane: I have an updated CR draft
14:01:04 <ShaneM> CR Draft for publication was at
14:01:24 <Steven> Roland: There was the key discussion
14:01:41 <Steven> ... I think we updated
14:01:52 <oedipus> second i18n post:
14:01:58 <Steven> Steven: Did we get sign-off?
14:02:03 <Steven> Roland: Not sure
14:02:07 <Steven> Shane: Thought so
14:02:13 <oedipus> SP reply:
14:02:29 <Steven> Steven: I'll take it offline, and if it has been signed off, I will send the request
14:02:48 <oedipus> Addison Phillips reply to SP's reply:
14:03:50 <oedipus> "This is, I should add, a problem that keyboard mnemonics have had in desktop software localization for (essentially) forever."
14:04:56 <Steven> Steven: I found a response from him, that it's OK
14:05:17 <Steven>
14:05:34 <oedipus> Addison says "i'm ok with this resolution"
14:05:38 <Steven> Steven: Addison OK'd that
14:06:04 <Steven> Steven: Does the spec match this?
14:06:11 <oedipus> GJR comments:
14:06:12 <Steven> Shane: No, don't think so
14:06:32 <Steven> Steven: Shane, if you ping me when that's ready, I can send it out
14:07:21 <Steven> Roland: Please make sure the DoC covers this as well
14:08:14 <Steven> Shane: I'll do that
14:08:25 <oedipus> [FYI first action items we discussed bound to HTML WG action]
14:09:07 <Steven> Subtopic: HTML5/XHTML2/ARIA Action 52
14:09:22 <Steven> Gregory: I see the HTML5 WG has the same action, to talk to the XHTML2 chairs
14:09:56 <Steven> Roland: WAI review; we talked about it last week
14:10:12 <Steven> Steven: I was OK with it
14:10:31 <Steven> Gregory: There is ARIA's relationship with @role
14:10:40 <Steven> ... which says "derived from..."
14:11:17 <Steven> ... and the answer that is coming back (which I don't agree with) is that it is to accomodate ARIA in HTML5
14:11:34 <Steven> ... but HTML5 want to hard-code ARIA
14:11:49 <Steven> ... which would freeze it, which would take ARIA out of our control
14:12:41 <oedipus> q+
14:14:02 <Steven> Gregory: we are reviewing @alt text as well
14:14:55 <Steven> ... and thinking of keying the requirement of @alt keyed off of @role="Image"
14:14:58 <ShaneM> XHTML Access CR updated at
14:15:30 <Steven> ACTION-52 closed
14:15:30 <trackbot> ACTION-52 Read WAI ARIA by 18 march closed
14:16:03 <Steven> Subtopic: Action 53
14:16:22 <Steven> Steven: Didn't we do that already?
14:16:30 <Steven> ... I recall a reply from Nick vd Bleeken
14:17:12 <oedipus> thanks to whomever for updating
14:17:38 <oedipus> i mean, i now shane updated it, but someone moved it to were it should be
14:20:39 <Steven>
14:23:25 <Steven> Steven: I raised the XML Events 2 issue in the Forms WG, and Nick pointed me to the mail above
14:23:31 <Steven> ... so he has done the analysis
14:25:33 <Steven> ... we just need to agree with them on the real names
14:26:00 <Steven> Roland: We need to go around again
14:26:18 <oedipus> - query XHTML2 and SVG on whether mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order ok or problemmatic
14:26:29 <Steven> ... we'll deal with this when we deal with XML Events 2
14:26:36 <oedipus>
14:27:09 <oedipus> never reached resolution or response on this question from PF
14:27:32 <Steven> Shane: There are two issues - harmonising Events with XForms, and harmonising XForms with XHTML2
14:27:51 <Steven> Roland: We need to organise another virtual FtF
14:28:53 <Steven> Gregory: I had an action on mixing roles and ids (see above)
14:28:59 <oedipus>
14:29:36 <oedipus>
14:30:32 <Steven> Shane: Interesting
14:31:01 <Steven> Steven: This clearly needs to be dealt with in the session Roland mentioned
14:31:20 <Steven> Subtopic: Action 64
14:31:25 <oedipus> from GJR post: "finally, the question then arose "what happens when there is a DOM mutation that changes the number of roles (adding or subtracting from them)?"; if that happens, then the User Agent should/must find the next item, even if that item is a new item added by a DOM mutation event..."
14:31:49 <Steven> Shane: Not done; big issue needs to be solved
14:32:31 <Steven> Subtopic: Action 67
14:32:40 <Steven> Steven: They are willing, just need to settle on a time
14:32:47 <Steven> Gregory: What about during the vftf?
14:33:00 <Steven> Steven: Sounds good
14:33:07 <Steven> Topic: Next VFtF
14:33:38 <oedipus> a week from thursday?
14:33:47 <oedipus> GJR: can do
14:33:49 <Steven> Roland: 23 April?
14:33:53 <markus> can do
14:33:55 <Steven> Steven: Works for me
14:34:14 <Steven> Shane: I can make my morning
14:34:52 <Steven> Roland: 12:00 UTC?
14:35:00 <Steven> ... for 3 hours
14:35:27 <oedipus> 7am for Shane
14:35:34 <oedipus> 1pm for Roland
14:35:45 <Steven> Shane: I'll work it out, should be OK
14:35:53 <markus> +1
14:36:13 <Roland>
14:37:05 <Steven> Still need to hear from Tina and Alessio, and MarkBirbeck
14:37:55 <Steven> Roland: Send in items for the agenda
14:38:04 <oedipus> addition of D for dialogue
14:38:07 <Steven> Topic: PERs
14:38:41 <Steven> Shane: What about the PERs?
14:38:59 <Steven> Steven: I finished off the questionaires, they'll go through the mill tomorrow
14:39:37 <Steven> Roland: Steven, please invite the i18n people
14:39:39 <oedipus> for agenda:
14:39:41 <Steven> Steven: Will do
14:40:09 <oedipus> s/for agenda: /for virtual Face2Face agenda/
14:40:34 <Steven> Topic: CURIEs, and host language
14:40:56 <oedipus> s/invite the i18n people/invite the i18n people to participate during 23 april 2009 virtual face2face/
14:40:58 <Steven> Shane: Steven, you thought that the change wouldn't require a new last call
14:41:01 <Steven> Steven: Right
14:41:23 <Steven> Shane: Someone disagrees with that
14:41:32 <oedipus>
14:42:34 <oedipus> crux of post: "PROPOSED FIX: Ideally, there would be a "mimimalistic" CURIE profile, ideally something like SPARQL's abbreviation mechanism. Even QNames would be fine (though we'd recommend the spec point out that to cover all URIs there should be a non-abbreviated form)."
14:43:04 <Steven> Shane: I recommend reading the thread completely
14:43:29 <Steven> Roland: Let's add agenda items to the wiki
14:44:00 <oedipus>
14:44:00 <Roland>
14:44:47 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
14:44:58 <Zakim> -McCarron
14:45:00 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:45:01 <Zakim> -Steven
14:45:01 <Zakim> -Roland
14:45:03 <Zakim> -Markus
14:45:03 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:45:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, McCarron, Steven, +, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita