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Expected behaviour of quotation marks

35 messages.

Expected behaviour of quotation marks
ishida@w3.org   Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:48:56 +0100

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This is a question about how quotation marks should behave in multilingual text. Typically British English uses ' for a simple quotation, such as: Mr. Emerson says 'You can transmute love, ignore it, muddle it, but you can never pull it out of you'. Let's call these the primary quotation marks. And for a nested quote British English uses ", such as: But Lucy replies: 'Give George my love – once only. Tell him, "Muddle."'. Let's call these the secondary quotation marks. (And by the way, i know that in the US they do it the other way around, but i and this book are British.) In Canadian French this could be written: Mais Lucy répond: «Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, ‹Embrouille.› ». Now, if we mix languages, i think we would end up with: Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, 'Muddle.' ». Or would it be? Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, "Muddle." ». In other words, i'm suggesting that the outermost quotation marks belong to the language of the paragraph, rather than the quotation, and that the innermost quotes would be those of the language of the quotation. But i'm also wondering whether the innermost quotes should use the primary or secondary quotation marks. I'm hoping that there are some people on the lists to which i'm sending this who know the/an answer to this question. Once i have that, as long as it doesn't descend into a muddle, i will venture to apply it to the description of the behaviour of the q element in html5, to see whether there's a match. thanks in advance, ri
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
"Christopher R. Maden"   Wed, 6 Apr 2016 14:18:46 -0500

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On 04/06/2016 01:48 PM, ishida@w3.org wrote: > In other words, i'm suggesting that the outermost quotation marks > belong to the language of the paragraph, rather than the quotation, > and that the innermost quotes would be those of the language of the > quotation. But i'm also wondering whether the innermost quotes should > use the primary or secondary quotation marks. It’s really a question of style. If you keep all the quotation marks in the style of the “host” language, then it softens the impact of the foreign language. If you adopt the style of the quoted language, then it adds to the sense of foreign-ness, exoticness, alienation, or what-have-you. As a stronger example, consider a Chinese quote embedded in English, first in Latin letters, then in hanzi but embedded, left-to-right, then as a vertically set block quotation. The weight of Chinese cultural trappings coming along with the quote grows heavier with each representation. ~Chris -- Chris Maden, text nerd <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ > “If you’ve been a man o’ action, though you’re lying there in traction, You will gain some satisfaction thinkin’, ‘Jesus, at least I tried.’” — Andy M. Stewart (1952–2015), “Ramblin’ Rover”
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
John Cowan   Wed, 6 Apr 2016 16:58:23 -0400

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ishida@w3.org scripsit: > Now, if we mix languages, i think we would end up with: > > Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, 'Muddle.' ». I can't speak to what publishers actually do, but I think that would be absolutely horrible. Consider mixed AmE-German: His exact words were: “Ludwig XIV. sagte, „Der Staat bin ich.“” At the end, the German close quote and the American English close quote are in opposite directions and seem to create an empty string between them, nor does adding whitespace help very much. I think the best compromise is to use the quotation marks of the outermost language only: His exact words were: “Ludwig XIV. sagte, ‘Der Staat bin ich.’” That seems quite readable, given that the sentence is about *what words were used*; it's somewhat meaningful even to an anglophone reader who doesn't know any German. -- My .sigs are from my large and miscellaneous reading both on and off the net. Occasionally I hear one viva voce or make one up (without attribution, of course). I try to stay within the McQuary limit, but sometimes fail, as in this case. In general, the quotes are chosen at random by a script from <http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/signatures>, but sometimes I choose one on purpose. I've been collecting and using them for 30+ years.
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
Florian Rivoal   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 13:20:12 +0900

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> On Apr 7, 2016, at 03:48, ishida@w3.org wrote: > > This is a question about how quotation marks should behave in multilingual text. > > [...] > > In other words, i'm suggesting that the outermost quotation marks belong to the language of the paragraph, rather than the quotation, and that the innermost quotes would be those of the language of the quotation. But i'm also wondering whether the innermost quotes should use the primary or secondary quotation marks. This is tricky indeed, and I am not sure your suggestion that the innermost quots should be of the language of the quotation. The reason that languages have conventions to used different characters for different levels of nesting is so that two levels don't end up with the same characters. If we mix and match language rules as we go down, this is no longer going to be true in the general case. How bad that is varies. With very directional characters such as «», if you end up nesting them repeatedly it might not be pretty, but it's still clear. «foo said: «bar wrote: «baz»»». But if you're nesting "" or '' (or “” or ‘’ in fonts where they look the same), this becomes ambiguous, and it looks arguably worse with the example John gave where you nest „“ in “” and get “„“”, which is likely to confuse readers. I think that for the general case, we have to stick to a single set of rules for nesting the quotes, and using the ruleset of the outermost language is what makes most sense. With that said, for specific situations, having looked at the context, the desired stylistic effect, the actual languages used, and so on, authors would definitely be justified in picking a different combination (and the relevant specs should give examples on how to do that so that it is clear). But for the general case we need something that always works. - Florian
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
John Cowan   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 01:34:00 -0400

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Florian Rivoal scripsit: > With very directional characters such as «», if you end up nesting > them repeatedly it might not be pretty, but it's still clear. What's more, German uses guillemets in certain contexts, but » is left and « is right! This is even worse when mixed with French. Then there are quotation marks in bidirectional text .... -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Knowledge studies others / Wisdom is self-known; Muscle masters brothers / Self-mastery is bone; Content need never borrow / Ambition wanders blind; Vitality cleaves to the marrow / Leaving death behind. --Tao 33 (Bynner)
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
Dave Cramer   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 04:12:27 -0400

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On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 2:48 PM, <ishida@w3.org> wrote: > > > In other words, i'm suggesting that the outermost quotation marks belong > to the language of the paragraph, rather than the quotation, and that the > innermost quotes would be those of the language of the quotation. But i'm > also wondering whether the innermost quotes should use the primary or > secondary quotation marks. > > I'm hoping that there are some people on the lists to which i'm sending > this who know the/an answer to this question. Once i have that, as long as > it doesn't descend into a muddle, i will venture to apply it to the > description of the behaviour of the q element in html5, to see whether > there's a match. > > There's a mention of this in the CSS Generated Content Spec at [1]. See example 9 and the preceding note: If a quotation is in a different language than the surrounding text, it is > customary to quote the text with the quote marks of the language of the > surrounding text, not the language of the quotation itself. This text was inherited from a very old version of this spec. I'll be happy to update based on the result of this discussion. Regards, Dave Cramer [1] https://drafts.csswg.org/css-content/#inserting-quotes
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
"Amir E. Aharoni"   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:47:03 +0300

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In Hebrew, the punctuation rules of the Academy of the Hebrew Language say that when foreign text is embedded in Hebrew text, the quotation marks are to be used according to the foreign text. However, this talks about the placement of the marks with regards to direction, rather than their shape. Strangely, their web page that details the punctuation rules itself seems to be using quotations inconsistently; I emailed them. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ 2016-04-06 21:48 GMT+03:00 <ishida@w3.org>: > This is a question about how quotation marks should behave in multilingual > text. > > Typically British English uses ' for a simple quotation, such as: > > Mr. Emerson says 'You can transmute love, ignore it, muddle it, but you > can never pull it out of you'. > > Let's call these the primary quotation marks. > > And for a nested quote British English uses ", such as: > > But Lucy replies: 'Give George my love – once only. Tell him, "Muddle."'. > > Let's call these the secondary quotation marks. (And by the way, i know > that in the US they do it the other way around, but i and this book are > British.) > > In Canadian French this could be written: > > Mais Lucy répond: «Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. > Dites-lui, ‹Embrouille.› ». > > > Now, if we mix languages, i think we would end up with: > > Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, 'Muddle.' ». > > Or would it be? > > Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, "Muddle." ». > > > In other words, i'm suggesting that the outermost quotation marks belong > to the language of the paragraph, rather than the quotation, and that the > innermost quotes would be those of the language of the quotation. But i'm > also wondering whether the innermost quotes should use the primary or > secondary quotation marks. > > I'm hoping that there are some people on the lists to which i'm sending > this who know the/an answer to this question. Once i have that, as long as > it doesn't descend into a muddle, i will venture to apply it to the > description of the behaviour of the q element in html5, to see whether > there's a match. > > > thanks in advance, > ri > >
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
"Lina Kemmel"   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:13:37 +0300

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I think it should be consistent, and preferably follow the language of the paragraph (for both inner and outer quotes). Otherwise, we can get something like: She said: «In German it is »Blume«». - where the "German" opening quotation mark can be easily confused with the closing one of the English phrase. Lina Kemmel From: ishida@w3.org To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, www International <www-international@w3.org> Date: 06/04/2016 21:51 Subject: Expected behaviour of quotation marks This is a question about how quotation marks should behave in multilingual text. Typically British English uses ' for a simple quotation, such as: Mr. Emerson says 'You can transmute love, ignore it, muddle it, but you can never pull it out of you'. Let's call these the primary quotation marks. And for a nested quote British English uses ", such as: But Lucy replies: 'Give George my love – once only. Tell him, "Muddle."'. Let's call these the secondary quotation marks. (And by the way, i know that in the US they do it the other way around, but i and this book are British.) In Canadian French this could be written: Mais Lucy répond: «Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, ‹Embrouille.› ». Now, if we mix languages, i think we would end up with: Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, 'Muddle.' ». Or would it be? Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, "Muddle." ». In other words, i'm suggesting that the outermost quotation marks belong to the language of the paragraph, rather than the quotation, and that the innermost quotes would be those of the language of the quotation. But i'm also wondering whether the innermost quotes should use the primary or secondary quotation marks. I'm hoping that there are some people on the lists to which i'm sending this who know the/an answer to this question. Once i have that, as long as it doesn't descend into a muddle, i will venture to apply it to the description of the behaviour of the q element in html5, to see whether there's a match. thanks in advance, ri
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
ishida@w3.org   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:39:46 +0100

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On 07/04/2016 09:12, Dave Cramer wrote: > There's a mention of this in the CSS Generated Content Spec at [1]. See > example 9 and the preceding note: Thanks for the link, Dave. The most interesting part of example 9 is actually a different case from the one i had mentioned, ie. it is: Il disait: « Il faut mettre l’action en ‹ fast forward ›. » which has the pattern A(A(B)), where A stands for one language, and B for another. It seems quite logical to use ‹ around fast forward in this case, because the parens belong to the language of the text containing the quotation, which in this case is still French. The case of Lucy and Mr. Emerson has the pattern A(B(B)), which introduces a secondary quotation mark inside text that has already switched language, and therefore presents a somewhat more interesting conundrum. So far, most people have suggested that this should be written: Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‹Muddle.›». following the rule that the form of the quotation marks ignores any change in language from that of the reader, so as not to avoid introducing visual confusion. Which seems reasonable - although i'd still like to hear from people who work for big publishing houses about what their style guides say. The real difficulty starts when you begin marking things up. This is what i'm trying to get to. If the html tag has lang=fr and the para is marked up like this: <p>Mais Lucy répond: <q lang=en>Give George my love – once only. Tell him, <q>Muddle.</q></q>.</p> and, if you use the styling suggested in the css-content spec, ie. :lang(fr) > * { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" } :lang(en) > * { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" } you won't end up with Mais Lucy répond: « Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‹Muddle.› ». you'll end up with Mais Lucy répond: « Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‘Muddle.’ ». because the quotation is marked up for language. Ok, so let's try applying the styling pattern recommended by the HTML5 spec, which is (in slightly edited form): :root:lang(en), :not(:lang(en)) > :lang(en) { quotes: '“' '”' '‘' '’' } :root:lang(fr), :not(:lang(fr)) > :lang(fr) { quotes: '«' '»' '‹' '›' } Now you end up with: Mais Lucy répond: “Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‘Muddle.’”. To bring this in line with what most people are suggesting so far, it seems to me that the styling for q needs to be based on the language identified as that of the reader, only. In many cases, that's the language at the top of the page in the html tag. In a bilingual page in French Canadian, however, the lang attribute you need may be somewhere further down the hierarchy, at some rather arbitray point, and may be difficult to identify. Perhaps what we need is a CSS rule that says, 'If you're not inside a q element, then set the quotes per the language outside the quote; but if you are inside, ignore the language info.' I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet. ri
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
John Cowan   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:58:18 -0400

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ishida@w3.org scripsit: > <p>Mais Lucy répond: <q lang=en>Give George my love – once only. > Tell him, <q>Muddle.</q></q>.</p> The moral is that the q element is broken and shouldn't be used. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Send us, bright one, light one, Horhorn, quickening, and wombfruit. (3x) Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! --Joyce, Ulysses, "Oxen of the Sun"
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
AUDRAIN LUC   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:44:14 +0200

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About quotations marks, here are some hints about French usage : Quotation marks are called « guillemets » and are used in typography for quotation. At first level, they are called French guillemets : « ... » At second level, they are called English guillemets and are written with these glyohs “ ... ” Exemples : * « Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté, luxe, calme et volupté. » * « L'ouvreuse m'a dit : “ Donnez-moi votre ticket. ” Je le lui ai donné. » Luc Le 07/04/2016 16:39, « ishida@w3.org » <ishida@w3.org> a écrit : >On 07/04/2016 09:12, Dave Cramer wrote: >> There's a mention of this in the CSS Generated Content Spec at [1]. See >> example 9 and the preceding note: > >Thanks for the link, Dave. The most interesting part of example 9 is >actually a different case from the one i had mentioned, ie. it is: > >Il disait: « Il faut mettre l’action en ‹ fast forward ›. » > >which has the pattern A(A(B)), where A stands for one language, and B >for another. > >It seems quite logical to use ‹ around fast forward in this case, >because the parens belong to the language of the text containing the >quotation, which in this case is still French. > >The case of Lucy and Mr. Emerson has the pattern A(B(B)), which >introduces a secondary quotation mark inside text that has already >switched language, and therefore presents a somewhat more interesting >conundrum. > >So far, most people have suggested that this should be written: > >Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‹Muddle.›». > >following the rule that the form of the quotation marks ignores any >change in language from that of the reader, so as not to avoid >introducing visual confusion. Which seems reasonable - although i'd >still like to hear from people who work for big publishing houses about >what their style guides say. > > > > >The real difficulty starts when you begin marking things up. This is >what i'm trying to get to. If the html tag has lang=fr and the para is >marked up like this: > ><p>Mais Lucy répond: <q lang=en>Give George my love – once only. Tell >him, <q>Muddle.</q></q>.</p> > >and, if you use the styling suggested in the css-content spec, ie. > >:lang(fr) > * { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" } >:lang(en) > * { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" } > >you won't end up with > >Mais Lucy répond: « Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‹Muddle.› >». > >you'll end up with > >Mais Lucy répond: « Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‘Muddle.’ >». > >because the quotation is marked up for language. > >Ok, so let's try applying the styling pattern recommended by the HTML5 >spec, which is (in slightly edited form): > >:root:lang(en), :not(:lang(en)) > :lang(en) { quotes: '“' '”' '‘' '’' } > >:root:lang(fr), :not(:lang(fr)) > :lang(fr) { quotes: '«' '»' '‹' '›' } > > >Now you end up with: > >Mais Lucy répond: “Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‘Muddle.’”. > > > >To bring this in line with what most people are suggesting so far, it >seems to me that the styling for q needs to be based on the language >identified as that of the reader, only. In many cases, that's the >language at the top of the page in the html tag. In a bilingual page in >French Canadian, however, the lang attribute you need may be somewhere >further down the hierarchy, at some rather arbitray point, and may be >difficult to identify. > >Perhaps what we need is a CSS rule that says, 'If you're not inside a q >element, then set the quotes per the language outside the quote; but if >you are inside, ignore the language info.' > >I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet. > > > > >ri >
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
ishida@w3.org   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:37:46 +0100

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On 07/04/2016 16:44, AUDRAIN LUC wrote: > About quotations marks, here are some hints about French usage : > > Quotation marks are called « guillemets » and are used in typography for > quotation. > > At first level, they are called French guillemets : « ... » > At second level, they are called English guillemets and are written with > these glyohs “ ... ” > > Exemples : > * « Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté, luxe, calme et volupté. » > * « L'ouvreuse m'a dit : “ Donnez-moi votre ticket. ” Je le lui ai donné. » bonjour Luc, yes, i did say in my initial email that i was basing the punctuation in the examples on Canadian French rules (specifically, those specified for fr-CA in CLDR). I did this to get a completely distinctive set of punctuation to make the examples easier to read. But to be honest i translated the passage from Room with a View into the French i know, which is European, and in my markup i use fr rather than fr-CA just to make it easier to read the example. So, yes, take the examples with a pinch of salt per the character details – the key question is actually about what how to proceed rather than what characters to use for French. cheers, ri
RE: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken"   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:58:23 +0000

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You asked for style guide information, from the Chicago Manual of Style (http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec071.html?sessionId=b62584a6-b3ab-4377-87cc-526192e4d313 - I think behind a paywall) 13.71 Typographic style of foreign quotations Quotations in a foreign language that are incorporated into an English text are normally treated like quotations in English, set in roman type and run in or set off as block quotations according to their length. They are punctuated as in the original except that quotation marks replace guillemets (or their equivalents), and spacing relative to punctuation is adjusted to conform to the surrounding text (see 11.10). For isolated words and phrases, see 7.49. For excerpts from the original language following an English translation, see 13.73. The narrator’s “treinta o cuarenta molinos de viento” become Quixote’s “treinta, o pocos más, desaforados gigantes”—a numerical correspondence that lets the reader trust, at the very least, the hero’s basic grasp of reality. If em dashes are used for dialogue in the original (see 11.34, 11.52, 11.80, 11.121), they should be retained in a block quotation but may be replaced by quotation marks if only a phrase or sentence is quoted. Tzviya Siegman Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead Wiley 201-748-6884 tsiegman@wiley.com -----Original Message----- From: ishida@w3.org [mailto:ishida@w3.org] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:38 PM To: AUDRAIN LUC; Dave Cramer Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International Subject: Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks On 07/04/2016 16:44, AUDRAIN LUC wrote: > About quotations marks, here are some hints about French usage : > > Quotation marks are called « guillemets » and are used in typography > for quotation. > > At first level, they are called French guillemets : « ... » At second > level, they are called English guillemets and are written with these > glyohs “ ... ” > > Exemples : > * « Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté, luxe, calme et volupté. » > * « L'ouvreuse m'a dit : “ Donnez-moi votre ticket. ” Je le lui ai > donné. » bonjour Luc, yes, i did say in my initial email that i was basing the punctuation in the examples on Canadian French rules (specifically, those specified for fr-CA in CLDR). I did this to get a completely distinctive set of punctuation to make the examples easier to read. But to be honest i translated the passage from Room with a View into the French i know, which is European, and in my markup i use fr rather than fr-CA just to make it easier to read the example. So, yes, take the examples with a pinch of salt per the character details – the key question is actually about what how to proceed rather than what characters to use for French. cheers, ri
RE: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
"Tex Texin"   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:45:49 -0700

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I share John's disdain for the q element, although rather than saying it is broken, I think it is impractical. Perhaps others can share some use cases where it makes sense to use it. If I have a quote embedded in text, then I generally know the language of the surrounding text and may as well use a literal quote in that text. (Assuming you believe the outside quotes follow the surrounding language.) For example, if I have a database of sayings which I use to populate a page. Something like: <author> said <saying>. Eg. Newton said "All objects resist changes in their state of motion." Since I know the word "said" is in English, I could supply the literal English quote characters as well. A resource string might look like- saying: %1 said "%2" Using the q element instead of the literal would only complicate the programming and likely introduce errors. I have trouble finding simple and useful cases where it makes sense to use the q element. The case of a quote embedded in a quote surprisingly makes more sense, if you follow the model that the inner quote should follow the language of the outermost language. This case introduces the need to know the variable and unknown-until-the-time-of-rendering outermost language identifier. As is pointed out though, accessing the outermost language identifier is problematic. Where are the cases where the q element is a solution to a problem? Ie Where the first level quote characters are for some reason independent of the surrounding text and so need to be programmatic, or where the second or third level quotes need to follow the language of the first level quotes, and are able to do so, given the language identifier is replaced by the intermediate language identifier? tex -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] On Behalf Of John Cowan Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 7:58 AM To: ishida@w3.org Cc: Dave Cramer; W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International Subject: Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks ishida@w3.org scripsit: > <p>Mais Lucy répond: <q lang=en>Give George my love – once only. > Tell him, <q>Muddle.</q></q>.</p> The moral is that the q element is broken and shouldn't be used. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Send us, bright one, light one, Horhorn, quickening, and wombfruit. (3x) Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! --Joyce, Ulysses, "Oxen of the Sun"
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
fantasai   Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:26:55 -0400

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On 04/07/2016 10:39 AM, ishida@w3.org wrote: > > To bring this in line with what most people are suggesting so far, it seems to me that the styling for q needs to be based on > the language identified as that of the reader, only. In many cases, that's the language at the top of the page in the html > tag. In a bilingual page in French Canadian, however, the lang attribute you need may be somewhere further down the > hierarchy, at some rather arbitray point, and may be difficult to identify. I think that depends a bit on what you're doing with the quotes. Nested speaker quotations maybe, but quotation marks are also used for things like titles, "air quotes", and other effects which imho seem to work better if we don't jump contexts. I think this is *especially* true if considering a non-CJK fragment inside a CJK paragraph. Using CJK quotation marks inside a Latin segment would look very disruptive. Between this and the fact that it's not that easy to determine the "context" language (is it lang on <html>? what about <body>? what about <article> or <section>? what about <blockquote> or <p>? what about <div>?), I think the rules in the CSS spec (use the language of the immediately- surrounding text) is the best default behavior. Authors can always adjust if they want something more specific. > Perhaps what we need is a CSS rule that says, 'If you're not > inside a q element, then set the quotes per the language outside > the quote; but if you are inside, ignore the language info.' > > I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet. [lang] { quotes: whatever; } q, q [lang] { quotes: inherit; } (You need to make the second rule more specific than the first, though, by adding some always-matching selectors or somesuch.) ~fantasai
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
Florian Rivoal   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 09:57:34 +0900

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> On Apr 7, 2016, at 23:39, ishida@w3.org wrote: > Perhaps what we need is a CSS rule that says, 'If you're not inside a q element, then set the quotes per the language outside the quote; but if you are inside, ignore the language info.' Sounds right. > I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet. I believe this is the way to right it: :lang(fr) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" } :lang(en) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" } Here's a demo: http://jsbin.com/savatoqala/edit?html,css,output This only seems to Safari (not Chrome) implements :not() well enough to support this, but I believe it is correct by spec, and it does work in Safari. - Florian
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
Florian Rivoal   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:08:12 +0900

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> On Apr 8, 2016, at 09:57, Florian Rivoal <florian@rivoal.net> wrote: > > >> On Apr 7, 2016, at 23:39, ishida@w3.org wrote: > > >> Perhaps what we need is a CSS rule that says, 'If you're not inside a q element, then set the quotes per the language outside the quote; but if you are inside, ignore the language info.' > > Sounds right. > >> I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet. > > I believe this is the way to right it: > > :lang(fr) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" } > :lang(en) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" } > > Here's a demo: > http://jsbin.com/savatoqala/edit?html,css,output > > This only seems to Safari (not Chrome) implements :not() well enough to support this, but I believe it is correct by spec, and it does work in Safari. (New URL for the demo http://florian.rivoal.net/csswg/nested-quotes.html) Silly me. It also works in Vivliostyle (running in any browser) :) http://vivliostyle.github.io/vivliostyle.js/viewer/vivliostyle-viewer.html#x=http://florian.rivoal.net/csswg/nested-quotes.html - Florian Vivliostyle
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
ishida@w3.org   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:28:05 +0100

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Thanks, Tsviya! i'm assuming that the whole second para, about windmills, is an example? afaict, the description doesn't address secondary quote marks (ie. those that are inside primary quote marks). I interpret "except that quotation marks replace guillemets (or their equivalents)" to refer to the primary quote marks(?), which i think is non-controversial. cheers, ri On 07/04/2016 18:58, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken wrote: > You asked for style guide information, from the Chicago Manual of Style (http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec071.html?sessionId=b62584a6-b3ab-4377-87cc-526192e4d313 - I think behind a paywall) > > 13.71 Typographic style of foreign quotations > Quotations in a foreign language that are incorporated into an English text are normally treated like quotations in English, set in roman type and run in or set off as block quotations according to their length. They are punctuated as in the original except that quotation marks replace guillemets (or their equivalents), and spacing relative to punctuation is adjusted to conform to the surrounding text (see 11.10). For isolated words and phrases, see 7.49. For excerpts from the original language following an English translation, see 13.73. > > The narrator’s “treinta o cuarenta molinos de viento” become Quixote’s “treinta, o pocos más, desaforados gigantes”—a numerical correspondence that lets the reader trust, at the very least, the hero’s basic grasp of reality. > > If em dashes are used for dialogue in the original (see 11.34, 11.52, 11.80, 11.121), they should be retained in a block quotation but may be replaced by quotation marks if only a phrase or sentence is quoted. > > Tzviya Siegman > Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead > Wiley > 201-748-6884 > tsiegman@wiley.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ishida@w3.org [mailto:ishida@w3.org] > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:38 PM > To: AUDRAIN LUC; Dave Cramer > Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International > Subject: Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks > > On 07/04/2016 16:44, AUDRAIN LUC wrote: >> About quotations marks, here are some hints about French usage : >> >> Quotation marks are called « guillemets » and are used in typography >> for quotation. >> >> At first level, they are called French guillemets : « ... » At second >> level, they are called English guillemets and are written with these >> glyohs “ ... ” >> >> Exemples : >> * « Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté, luxe, calme et volupté. » >> * « L'ouvreuse m'a dit : “ Donnez-moi votre ticket. ” Je le lui ai >> donné. » > > bonjour Luc, > > yes, i did say in my initial email that i was basing the punctuation in the examples on Canadian French rules (specifically, those specified for fr-CA in CLDR). I did this to get a completely distinctive set of punctuation to make the examples easier to read. But to be honest i translated the passage from Room with a View into the French i know, which is European, and in my markup i use fr rather than fr-CA just to make it easier to read the example. > > So, yes, take the examples with a pinch of salt per the character details – the key question is actually about what how to proceed rather than what characters to use for French. > > cheers, > ri >
Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
ishida@w3.org   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:28:36 +0100

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[since this is branching out into a different topic, i'm retitling it] On 07/04/2016 19:45, Tex Texin wrote: > I share John's disdain for the q element, although rather than saying it is broken, I think it is impractical. Perhaps others can share some use cases where it makes sense to use it. > > If I have a quote embedded in text, then I generally know the language of the surrounding text and may as well use a literal quote in that text. (Assuming you believe the outside quotes follow the surrounding language.) > > For example, if I have a database of sayings which I use to populate a page. Something like: <author> said <saying>. Eg. Newton said "All objects resist changes in their state of motion." > Since I know the word "said" is in English, I could supply the literal English quote characters as well. A resource string might look like- saying: %1 said "%2" > Using the q element instead of the literal would only complicate the programming and likely introduce errors. > I have trouble finding simple and useful cases where it makes sense to use the q element. > > The case of a quote embedded in a quote surprisingly makes more sense, if you follow the model that the inner quote should follow the language of the outermost language. This case introduces the need to know the variable and unknown-until-the-time-of-rendering outermost language identifier. As is pointed out though, accessing the outermost language identifier is problematic. > > Where are the cases where the q element is a solution to a problem? Ie Where the first level quote characters are for some reason independent of the surrounding text and so need to be programmatic, or where the second or third level quotes need to follow the language of the first level quotes, and are able to do so, given the language identifier is replaced by the intermediate language identifier? I'm not saying that there aren't any cases where you'd want to use Unicode characters for quotation marks, but here, as i see it, are some ways in which the q tag can be quite useful. [1] Suppose i take your page containing a list of quotations, and i decide i want to extract just the quotations themselves, without the 'Newton said', etc. if the quotes had been semantically identified using q elements, it would be trivial to do so. I'd know how to locate the quotes, how to avoid extracting the subquotes (although i could if i wanted), and how to avoid extracting things that happened to have quotes around them, but weren't actually quotations (such as column headings described in the explanation about how to use the page). doing that by searching for quotation mark characters is more complicated and may restrict the options in terms of how it would be done. In fact, if you used the British tradition to start quotes with single quote marks and those were delimited by U+0027 APOSTROPHE, you would also avoid having to figure out which punctuation marks bounded the quotation and which were used in words like it's, etc. in fact, a general method would need to take into account the language of the source page and make some assumptions about what quote characters were used to bound the quotes in order to identify where the quote are. none of that extra calibration or care is needed if you just extract the stuff marked up by q elements. so that's one use case where i think q can be useful, ie. semantically marking up the elements in the text allows you to straighforwardly find stuff based on semantics, rather than having to figure it out. [2] now, suppose that i take the quotes i extracted from your page and slipped them one by one into various other pages which were in various different languages, and i didn't use the q tag. While inserting the quote into the page i'd have to first determine the language of that page so that i could figure out what Unicode characters to use to surround the quote, as well as which to use for secondary quote marks. if, instead, i just inserted the quotation inside a q element, i should be able to rely on the browser to apply some sensible default punctuation characters, or even to pick up on any particular styling that the author of that page had put in place for quotations. and btw that q element would provide a perfect hook for lang attributes and dir attributes, as well as for cite attributes, etc. [3] use of q markup provides greater typographic control over the placement of quotation marks. For example, in French the guillemet tends to come with some extra blank space besides it. You could achieve this very simply by styling the q element. In other cases, you may want to make the quote marks bigger, kern them or move them in one direction or another relative to the base, even colour them, etc. All this is easily controlled by CSS if you use the q element, but not easy at all if you just use the Unicode characters. [4] if you want to translate a page with quotations from, say, English to German, no need to search and replace the Unicode characters. Just use a different style rule in the CSS to change the quote marks as needed. [6] in fact, you may want to change the quote marks sometimes even without translation – perhaps to change a text from en-US to en-GB, or perhaps just because you prefer a different approach within a single locale when there are multiple possibilities (such as »Blume« vs „Blume“ in German), or perhaps because you want to use a script to put one quotation at random into a larger blockquote on the page, in which case you don't need the quote marks. [5] you are going to be sure that you didn't miss out or misplace punctuation if your markup is well-formed. i sometimes if fiddly to get punctuation marks right in small font sizes, such as in: Lucy sagte, “Tell him „Muddle“” (i actually just made a mistake while trying to create that example!) whereas if i'm using Dreamweaver, marking that up is a doddle, and it's easy to tell that i got it correct. Also, if i'm unable to access left and right quotation marks on my keyboard or in my application, it's not a problem if i'm supplying them via styling. well, maybe i should stop there. ri
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
ishida@w3.org   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:10:00 +0100

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On 07/04/2016 21:26, fantasai wrote: > I think that depends a bit on what you're doing with the quotes. > Nested speaker quotations maybe, but quotation marks are also > used for things like titles, "air quotes", and other effects > which imho seem to work better if we don't jump contexts. the latter are not what i have in mind at the moment. I'm actually focused on things for which you would use the q tag, described in HTML5 as: <q cite="https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-q-element">The q element represents some phrasing content quoted from another source.</q> and further described by: <q>The q element must not be used in place of quotation marks that do not represent quotes; for example, it is inappropriate to use the q element for marking up sarcastic statements.</q> (that said, i also tend to use markup to identify other things i want to surround with quote marks in certain contexts (eg. <span class='qterm'>..</span> or <span class='qchar'>..</span>), but those tend to be simpler (no secondary quote marks), and they are differentiated semantically and stylistically.) > I think this is *especially* true if considering a non-CJK > fragment inside a CJK paragraph. Using CJK quotation marks > inside a Latin segment would look very disruptive. > > Between this and the fact that it's not that easy to determine > the "context" language (is it lang on <html>? what about <body>? > what about <article> or <section>? what about <blockquote> or > <p>? what about <div>?), I think the rules in the CSS spec (use > the language of the immediately- surrounding text) is the best > default behavior. Well, if the algorithm to detect the language looks for the language that surrounds the primary quotation markup, then maybe that's adequate. See below. > Authors can always adjust if they want something more specific. > >> Perhaps what we need is a CSS rule that says, 'If you're not >> inside a q element, then set the quotes per the language outside >> the quote; but if you are inside, ignore the language info.' >> >> I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet. > > [lang] { quotes: whatever; } > q, q [lang] { quotes: inherit; } > > (You need to make the second rule more specific than the first, > though, by adding some always-matching selectors or somesuch.) Florian's syntax seems to work(?). ri
Re: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
ishida@w3.org   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:22:22 +0100

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On 08/04/2016 12:28, ishida@w3.org wrote: > i sometimes if fiddly to get punctuation marks right in small font > sizes, such as in: > Lucy sagte, “Tell him „Muddle“” > (i actually just made a mistake while trying to create that example!) > whereas if i'm using Dreamweaver, marking that up is a doddle, and it's > easy to tell that i got it correct. um, so btw i guess that should normally be Lucy sagte, „Tell him ‚Muddle.‘“ ri
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
Gunnar Bittersmann   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:54:32 +0200

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fantasai scripsit (2016-04-07 22:26): >> I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet. > > [lang] { quotes: whatever; } > q, q [lang] { quotes: inherit; } In case of <q lang="tlh">, this rule would generate quotation marks depending on the language of the quote instead of the language of the context (undesired Klingon quotation marks, not Terranian in this example). Hence: :lang(…) > q { quotes: … } If you want nested quotes to inherit from the outermost quote, this should do the trick, cf. http://codepen.io/gunnarbittersmann/pen/repYNq?editors=1100 q q { quotes: inherit !important } Using `!important` is not (always) a sin. Gunnar
RE: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken"   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:56:17 +0000

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Yes, the windmills section is a quote. I don't really want to duplicate the whole Chicago Manual of Style here, but here are the relevant sections (the formatting including <ol> is stripped out, sorry): http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec028.html 13.28Quotations and “quotes within quotes” Quoted words, phrases, and sentences run into the text are enclosed in double quotation marks. Single quotation marks enclose quotations within quotations; double marks, quotations within these; and so on. (The practice in the United Kingdom and elsewhere is often the reverse: single marks are used first, then double, and so on.) When the material quoted consists entirely of a quotation within a quotation, only one set of quotation marks need be employed (usually double quotation marks). For permissible changes from single to double quotation marks and vice versa, see 13.7 (item 1); see also 13.61. For dialogue, see 13.37. For technical uses of single quotation marks, see 7.50, 8.129. “Don’t be absurd!” said Henry. “To say that ‘I mean what I say’ is the same as ‘I say what I mean’ is to be as confused as Alice at the Mad Hatter’s tea party. You remember what the Hatter said to her: ‘Not the same thing a bit! Why you might just as well say that “I see what I eat” is the same thing as “I eat what I see”!’ ” Note carefully not only the placement of the single and double closing quotation marks but also that of the exclamation points in relation to those marks in the example above. Question marks and exclamation points are placed just within the set of quotation marks ending the element to which such terminal punctuation belongs. For the placement of other punctuation—commas, periods, question marks, and so on—in relation to closing quotation marks, see 6.9–11. http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec007.html 13.7Permissible changes to punctuation, capitalization, and spelling Although in a direct quotation the wording should be reproduced exactly, the following changes are generally permissible to make a passage fit into the syntax and typography of the surrounding text. See also 13.8. Single quotation marks may be changed to double, and double to single (see 13.28); punctuation relative to quotation marks should be adjusted accordingly (see 6.9). Guillemets and other types of quotation marks in a foreign language may be changed to regular single or double quotation marks (see 13.71). The initial letter may be changed to a capital or a lowercase letter (see 13.13–16). A final period may be omitted or changed to a comma as required, and punctuation may be omitted where ellipsis points are used (see 13.48–56). Original note reference marks (and the notes to which they refer) may be omitted unless omission would affect the meaning of the quotation. If an original note is included, the quotation may best be set off as a block quotation (see 13.9), with the note in smaller type at the end, or the note may be summarized in the accompanying text. Authors may, on the other hand, add note references of their own within quotations. Obvious typographic errors may be corrected silently (without comment or sic; see 13.59), unless the passage quoted is from an older work or a manuscript source where idiosyncrasies of spelling are generally preserved. If spelling and punctuation are modernized or altered for clarity, readers must be so informed in a note, in a preface, or elsewhere. In quoting from early printed documents, the archaic Latin ʃ (small letter esh, Unicode character U+0283, similar to the integral sign), used to represent a lowercase s at the beginning or in the middle but never at the end of a word (“Such goodneʃs of your juʃtice, that our ʃoul . . .”), may be changed to a modern s. Similarly, Vanitie and Vncertaintie (a quoted title) may be changed to Vanitie and Uncertaintie, but writers or editors without a strong background in classical or Renaissance studies should generally be wary of changing u to v, i to j, or vice versa. See also 11.61, 11.142–43. Tzviya Siegman Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead Wiley 201-748-6884 tsiegman@wiley.com -----Original Message----- From: ishida@w3.org [mailto:ishida@w3.org] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 6:28 AM To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; AUDRAIN LUC; Dave Cramer Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International Subject: Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks Thanks, Tsviya! i'm assuming that the whole second para, about windmills, is an example? afaict, the description doesn't address secondary quote marks (ie. those that are inside primary quote marks). I interpret "except that quotation marks replace guillemets (or their equivalents)" to refer to the primary quote marks(?), which i think is non-controversial. cheers, ri On 07/04/2016 18:58, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken wrote: > You asked for style guide information, from the Chicago Manual of > Style > (http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec071.html?sessionI > d=b62584a6-b3ab-4377-87cc-526192e4d313 - I think behind a paywall) > > 13.71 Typographic style of foreign quotations Quotations in a foreign > language that are incorporated into an English text are normally treated like quotations in English, set in roman type and run in or set off as block quotations according to their length. They are punctuated as in the original except that quotation marks replace guillemets (or their equivalents), and spacing relative to punctuation is adjusted to conform to the surrounding text (see 11.10). For isolated words and phrases, see 7.49. For excerpts from the original language following an English translation, see 13.73. > > The narrator’s “treinta o cuarenta molinos de viento” become Quixote’s “treinta, o pocos más, desaforados gigantes”—a numerical correspondence that lets the reader trust, at the very least, the hero’s basic grasp of reality. > > If em dashes are used for dialogue in the original (see 11.34, 11.52, 11.80, 11.121), they should be retained in a block quotation but may be replaced by quotation marks if only a phrase or sentence is quoted. > > Tzviya Siegman > Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead Wiley > 201-748-6884 > tsiegman@wiley.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ishida@w3.org [mailto:ishida@w3.org] > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:38 PM > To: AUDRAIN LUC; Dave Cramer > Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International > Subject: Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks > > On 07/04/2016 16:44, AUDRAIN LUC wrote: >> About quotations marks, here are some hints about French usage : >> >> Quotation marks are called « guillemets » and are used in typography >> for quotation. >> >> At first level, they are called French guillemets : « ... » At second >> level, they are called English guillemets and are written with these >> glyohs “ ... ” >> >> Exemples : >> * « Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté, luxe, calme et volupté. » >> * « L'ouvreuse m'a dit : “ Donnez-moi votre ticket. ” Je le lui ai >> donné. » > > bonjour Luc, > > yes, i did say in my initial email that i was basing the punctuation in the examples on Canadian French rules (specifically, those specified for fr-CA in CLDR). I did this to get a completely distinctive set of punctuation to make the examples easier to read. But to be honest i translated the passage from Room with a View into the French i know, which is European, and in my markup i use fr rather than fr-CA just to make it easier to read the example. > > So, yes, take the examples with a pinch of salt per the character details – the key question is actually about what how to proceed rather than what characters to use for French. > > cheers, > ri >
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
Gunnar Bittersmann   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:57:30 +0200

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Hi Richard, I thought I was done with preparing my lightning talk on this very topic of nested quotes for the upcoming Front-Trends conference in Warsaw—now you come up with this discussion‽ ;-) ishida@w3.org scripsit (2016-04-07 16:39): > :lang(fr) > * { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" } > :lang(en) > * { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" } I feel guilty for having told you these selectors some years ago. Also in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2011JulSep/0069.html Because of how CSS processing works: selectors are read from right to left. In this case, `*` matches to each and every element, for all of them it needs to be checked if their parent elements are in given language, only to find out later that the `quotes` property has no effect for most of the elements. Don’t use `:lang() > *`. Use `:lang() > q` instead. It’s micro-optimization, but with no costs. You might want to change all documents telling otherwise. ;-) Shame on me, Gunnar
Re: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
John Cowan   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 09:36:21 -0400

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ishida@w3.org scripsit: > if the quotes had been semantically identified using q elements, it > would be trivial to do so. I agree that it would be good to have a way to semantically identify quotations in running text. It's the fact that browsers supply quotation marks around them that's problematic. There seems to be no way to override what question marks are provided. Playing with Chrome, I find that "en-us" produces ASCII double quotes, whereas "en-gb" produces curly double quotes. Arguably both of these are wrong, but as an author, what am I supposed to do? To get the results I think are correct, I have to forgo the q element. This could be repaired by providing a new element, perhaps named "quote", which also indicates a quotation but doesn't supply any marks. Alternatively, the q element could accept attributes specifying the start and end quotes. > if, instead, i just inserted the quotation inside a q element, i > should be able to rely on the browser to apply some sensible default Except that that appears not to be the case. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I could dance with you till the cows come home. On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you come home. --Rufus T. Firefly
Re: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
"Phillips, Addison"   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:00:15 +0000

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> Except that that appears not to be the case. Isn't that what we're discussing fixing? (Sent from my Fire tablet) On April 8, 2016, at 6:39 AM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: ishida@w3.org scripsit: > if the quotes had been semantically identified using q elements, it > would be trivial to do so. I agree that it would be good to have a way to semantically identify quotations in running text. It's the fact that browsers supply quotation marks around them that's problematic. There seems to be no way to override what question marks are provided. Playing with Chrome, I find that "en-us" produces ASCII double quotes, whereas "en-gb" produces curly double quotes. Arguably both of these are wrong, but as an author, what am I supposed to do? To get the results I think are correct, I have to forgo the q element. This could be repaired by providing a new element, perhaps named "quote", which also indicates a quotation but doesn't supply any marks. Alternatively, the q element could accept attributes specifying the start and end quotes. > if, instead, i just inserted the quotation inside a q element, i > should be able to rely on the browser to apply some sensible default Except that that appears not to be the case. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I could dance with you till the cows come home. On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you come home. --Rufus T. Firefly
Re: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
John Cowan   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:59:46 -0400

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Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > Except that that appears not to be the case. > > Isn't that what we're discussing fixing? Are we? I thought we were talking about how to make use of the q element given existing browser behavior, to which my answer is "Don't." -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org O beautiful for patriot's dream that sees beyond the years Thine alabaster cities gleam undimmed by human tears! America! America! God mend thine every flaw, Confirm thy soul in self-control, thy liberty in law! --one of the verses not usually taught in U.S. schools
Re: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
ishida@w3.org   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:48:55 +0100

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On 08/04/2016 16:59, John Cowan wrote: > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > >>> Except that that appears not to be the case. >> >> Isn't that what we're discussing fixing? > > Are we? I thought we were talking about how to make use of the > q element given existing browser behavior, to which my answer is > "Don't." well, it's not what i was discussing ;-) I was (a) trying to establish what the requirements are, so that (b) i can have another bash at getting things sorted out in HTML5, and probably CSS too. however, i was also going to say that you can always add quotes: none; styling to prevent q producing quote marks, or style it so that it does what you prefer. What i'm looking at is how in future to improve the default result in the absence of fine tuning. ri
RE: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
"Tex Texin"   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 09:54:22 -0700

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You can override quote characters for the q element with the quotes property. (When browsers support the property) This can be configured by language if needed. q { quotes: "«" "»"; } Did I mistake your point? Tex -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] On Behalf Of John Cowan Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 6:36 AM To: ishida@w3.org Cc: Tex Texin; 'Dave Cramer'; 'W3C Digital Publishing IG'; 'www International' Subject: Re: Is <q> useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks] ishida@w3.org scripsit: > if the quotes had been semantically identified using q elements, it > would be trivial to do so. I agree that it would be good to have a way to semantically identify quotations in running text. It's the fact that browsers supply quotation marks around them that's problematic. There seems to be no way to override what question marks are provided. Playing with Chrome, I find that "en-us" produces ASCII double quotes, whereas "en-gb" produces curly double quotes. Arguably both of these are wrong, but as an author, what am I supposed to do? To get the results I think are correct, I have to forgo the q element. This could be repaired by providing a new element, perhaps named "quote", which also indicates a quotation but doesn't supply any marks. Alternatively, the q element could accept attributes specifying the start and end quotes. > if, instead, i just inserted the quotation inside a q element, i > should be able to rely on the browser to apply some sensible default Except that that appears not to be the case. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I could dance with you till the cows come home. On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you come home. --Rufus T. Firefly
Re: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
John Cowan   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:24:40 -0400

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Tex Texin scripsit: > You can override quote characters for the q element with the quotes > property. (When browsers support the property) Ah, I didn't know that, but what I know about CSS could be kept in a thimble. In that case, I'd say that if you must use the q element, make sure to set the quotes property appropriately. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org "Make a case, man; you're full of naked assertions, just like Nietzsche." "Oh, i suffer from that, too. But you know, naked assertions or GTFO." --heard on #scheme, sorta
RE: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
"Tex Texin"   Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:40:34 -0700

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Richard, thanks. I should have been more explicit. I recognize the value in being able to identify quoted content and to stylize it (eg italicizing it) and to tweak the rendering of the quote marks (spacing, kerning, etc), as we do with other content types. However, and recognizing that quoting styles vary with culture, I still find the value of using q elements to select the quote characters based on the current language to be minimal. I would position it more exactly this way. When the q element is being used to earmark quotations, then of course we need the CSS capability to specify quotation characters, and this is language dependent. However, when quotations are not otherwise semantically being identified, the emphasis that is often given during presentations on CSS internationalization capabilities (I am not referring to yours in particular Richard) recommending if not driving people to replace quotes with q elements is in fact counterproductive and caused more problems than it solved. At least with respect to browser support, that has improved in the past few years. But even with that, the transition from literals to q elements and trying to maintain the proper quotes according to the appropriate language in multilingual environments has been problematic. I recognize you are trying to improve the situation. Maybe the discussion will lead to a better architecture for accessing language identifiers within css, which will help elements and properties beyond just q. tex -----Original Message----- From: ishida@w3.org [mailto:ishida@w3.org] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 4:29 AM To: Tex Texin; 'John Cowan' Cc: 'Dave Cramer'; 'W3C Digital Publishing IG'; 'www International' Subject: Is <q> useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks] [since this is branching out into a different topic, i'm retitling it] On 07/04/2016 19:45, Tex Texin wrote: > I share John's disdain for the q element, although rather than saying it is broken, I think it is impractical. Perhaps others can share some use cases where it makes sense to use it. > > If I have a quote embedded in text, then I generally know the language > of the surrounding text and may as well use a literal quote in that > text. (Assuming you believe the outside quotes follow the surrounding > language.) > > For example, if I have a database of sayings which I use to populate a page. Something like: <author> said <saying>. Eg. Newton said "All objects resist changes in their state of motion." > Since I know the word "said" is in English, I could supply the literal English quote characters as well. A resource string might look like- saying: %1 said "%2" > Using the q element instead of the literal would only complicate the programming and likely introduce errors. > I have trouble finding simple and useful cases where it makes sense to use the q element. > > The case of a quote embedded in a quote surprisingly makes more sense, if you follow the model that the inner quote should follow the language of the outermost language. This case introduces the need to know the variable and unknown-until-the-time-of-rendering outermost language identifier. As is pointed out though, accessing the outermost language identifier is problematic. > > Where are the cases where the q element is a solution to a problem? Ie Where the first level quote characters are for some reason independent of the surrounding text and so need to be programmatic, or where the second or third level quotes need to follow the language of the first level quotes, and are able to do so, given the language identifier is replaced by the intermediate language identifier? I'm not saying that there aren't any cases where you'd want to use Unicode characters for quotation marks, but here, as i see it, are some ways in which the q tag can be quite useful. [1] Suppose i take your page containing a list of quotations, and i decide i want to extract just the quotations themselves, without the 'Newton said', etc. if the quotes had been semantically identified using q elements, it would be trivial to do so. I'd know how to locate the quotes, how to avoid extracting the subquotes (although i could if i wanted), and how to avoid extracting things that happened to have quotes around them, but weren't actually quotations (such as column headings described in the explanation about how to use the page). doing that by searching for quotation mark characters is more complicated and may restrict the options in terms of how it would be done. In fact, if you used the British tradition to start quotes with single quote marks and those were delimited by U+0027 APOSTROPHE, you would also avoid having to figure out which punctuation marks bounded the quotation and which were used in words like it's, etc. in fact, a general method would need to take into account the language of the source page and make some assumptions about what quote characters were used to bound the quotes in order to identify where the quote are. none of that extra calibration or care is needed if you just extract the stuff marked up by q elements. so that's one use case where i think q can be useful, ie. semantically marking up the elements in the text allows you to straighforwardly find stuff based on semantics, rather than having to figure it out. [2] now, suppose that i take the quotes i extracted from your page and slipped them one by one into various other pages which were in various different languages, and i didn't use the q tag. While inserting the quote into the page i'd have to first determine the language of that page so that i could figure out what Unicode characters to use to surround the quote, as well as which to use for secondary quote marks. if, instead, i just inserted the quotation inside a q element, i should be able to rely on the browser to apply some sensible default punctuation characters, or even to pick up on any particular styling that the author of that page had put in place for quotations. and btw that q element would provide a perfect hook for lang attributes and dir attributes, as well as for cite attributes, etc. [3] use of q markup provides greater typographic control over the placement of quotation marks. For example, in French the guillemet tends to come with some extra blank space besides it. You could achieve this very simply by styling the q element. In other cases, you may want to make the quote marks bigger, kern them or move them in one direction or another relative to the base, even colour them, etc. All this is easily controlled by CSS if you use the q element, but not easy at all if you just use the Unicode characters. [4] if you want to translate a page with quotations from, say, English to German, no need to search and replace the Unicode characters. Just use a different style rule in the CSS to change the quote marks as needed. [6] in fact, you may want to change the quote marks sometimes even without translation – perhaps to change a text from en-US to en-GB, or perhaps just because you prefer a different approach within a single locale when there are multiple possibilities (such as »Blume« vs „Blume“ in German), or perhaps because you want to use a script to put one quotation at random into a larger blockquote on the page, in which case you don't need the quote marks. [5] you are going to be sure that you didn't miss out or misplace punctuation if your markup is well-formed. i sometimes if fiddly to get punctuation marks right in small font sizes, such as in: Lucy sagte, “Tell him „Muddle“” (i actually just made a mistake while trying to create that example!) whereas if i'm using Dreamweaver, marking that up is a doddle, and it's easy to tell that i got it correct. Also, if i'm unable to access left and right quotation marks on my keyboard or in my application, it's not a problem if i'm supplying them via styling. well, maybe i should stop there. ri
Re: Is useful? [was Expected behaviour of quotation marks]
"Liam R. E. Quin"   Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:22:19 -0400

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On Fri, 2016-04-08 at 11:40 -0700, Tex Texin wrote: > I recognize you are trying to improve the situation. Maybe the > discussion will lead to a better architecture for accessing language > identifiers within css, which will help elements and properties > beyond just q. The q element would be more useful if there was a standard way to identify the speaker of the direct speech act, and to join together speech acts interrupted by (he said) interjections or across paragraph breaks. Without that, an ebook marked up with the TEI encoding has more potential. Liam -- Liam R. E. Quin <liam@w3.org> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
ishida@w3.org   Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:31:31 +0100

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On 06/04/2016 19:48, ishida@w3.org wrote: > This is a question about how quotation marks should behave in > multilingual text. I created some tests for the q element in HTML, with results for major browsers. See https://www.w3.org/International/tests/repo/results/the-q-element SUMMARY [1] all major desktop browsers put quote marks around content using the q element [2] they all use two different quotation marks for nested quotations, but they don't rotate the usage - they just use the secondary quote marks for third and more nested qs [3] Chrome, Opera, Safari and Edge all change quote marks as the language changes. Firefox doesn't. [4] The browsers that are language-sensitive follow the recommendations in the HTML5 spec (taken from CLDR) wrt which quotes are used by which language, except that Safari doesn't do the whole list, and occasionally inverts the primary and secondary quote marks. [5] Only in Firefox however do the quote marks match the HTML5 recommendation when no language is specified. [6] Browsers that are language-sensitive use the CSS rules defined in the HTML5 spec for the default presentation. This means that the quote marks used around a quotation are based on the language of the quotation itself - even at the top level. This means that in an English paragraph our example <p>But Lucy replies: <q lang="fr-CA">Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, <q>Embrouille.</q></q>.</p> will produce: But Lucy replies: «Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, ‹Embrouille.› ». instead of what people on this thread expect, which is But Lucy replies: “Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, ‘Embrouille.’”. A FLY IN THE OINTMENT Florian's CSS :lang(fr-CA) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" } :lang(en) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" } produces what's needed for the example as written above. However, there is one situation where it fails, and where afaict, there's not actually a way to produce the desired result. If we change our markup slightly, changing the first q into a span, we introduce the change in surrounding language before the q element is encountered. <p>But Lucy replies: <span lang="fr-CA">Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, <q>Embrouille.</q></span>.</p> In this case, the quotation is displayed with the quote marks appropriate for the surrounding language, but the surrounding language is not the language of the reader (ie. that of the paragraph, ie. en). The result is: But Lucy replies: Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, « Embrouille. ». ie. we now have French quotes around the word Embrouille. As failures go, i could imagine far worse. It's still possible to argue that there's some logic in having the French quotes here, even if it's not really what we want, so it's not a complete disaster. I can't really see a way around it, other than to *only* set the default quote marks on the basis of the language declared on the html tag. (The user would have to replicate that using CSS for elements lower down the hierarchy if they have a multilingual document.) Thoughts? ri
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
John Cowan   Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:53:24 -0400

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ishida@w3.org scripsit: > Thoughts? I boil it down to two principles: 1) Don't use the q element for the sake of display; use it only if you have to mark up quotations in HTML for some kind of processing other than rendering. 2) If you must use it, make sure that each and every one has appropriate CSS to force the quotation marks you intend. -- My .sigs are from my large and miscellaneous reading both on and off the net. Occasionally I hear one viva voce or make one up (without attribution, of course). I try to stay within the McQuary limit, but sometimes fail, as in this case. In general, the quotes are chosen at random by a script from <http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/signatures>, but sometimes I choose one on purpose. I've been collecting and using them for 30+ years.
Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
Florian Rivoal   Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:36:15 +0900

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> On Apr 15, 2016, at 22:31, ishida@w3.org wrote: > > On 06/04/2016 19:48, ishida@w3.org wrote: >> This is a question about how quotation marks should behave in >> multilingual text. > > > I created some tests for the q element in HTML, with results for major browsers. See > > https://www.w3.org/International/tests/repo/results/the-q-element > > > SUMMARY > > [1] all major desktop browsers put quote marks around content using the q element > > [2] they all use two different quotation marks for nested quotations, but they don't rotate the usage - they just use the secondary quote marks for third and more nested qs > > [3] Chrome, Opera, Safari and Edge all change quote marks as the language changes. Firefox doesn't. > > [4] The browsers that are language-sensitive follow the recommendations in the HTML5 spec (taken from CLDR) wrt which quotes are used by which language, except that Safari doesn't do the whole list, and occasionally inverts the primary and secondary quote marks. > > [5] Only in Firefox however do the quote marks match the HTML5 recommendation when no language is specified. > > [6] Browsers that are language-sensitive use the CSS rules defined in the HTML5 spec for the default presentation. This means that the quote marks used around a quotation are based on the language of the quotation itself - even at the top level. > > This means that in an English paragraph our example > > <p>But Lucy replies: <q lang="fr-CA">Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, <q>Embrouille.</q></q>.</p> > > will produce: > > But Lucy replies: «Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, ‹Embrouille.› ». > > instead of what people on this thread expect, which is > > But Lucy replies: “Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, ‘Embrouille.’”. > > > A FLY IN THE OINTMENT > > Florian's CSS > > :lang(fr-CA) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" } > :lang(en) > *:not(q *) { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" } > > produces what's needed for the example as written above. However, there is one situation where it fails, and where afaict, there's not actually a way to produce the desired result. > > If we change our markup slightly, changing the first q into a span, we introduce the change in surrounding language before the q element is encountered. > > <p>But Lucy replies: <span lang="fr-CA">Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, <q>Embrouille.</q></span>.</p> > > In this case, the quotation is displayed with the quote marks appropriate for the surrounding language, but the surrounding language is not the language of the reader (ie. that of the paragraph, ie. en). The result is: > > But Lucy replies: Embrassez George de ma part - seulement une fois. Dites-lui, « Embrouille. ». > > ie. we now have French quotes around the word Embrouille. As failures go, i could imagine far worse. It's still possible to argue that there's some logic in having the French quotes here, even if it's not really what we want, so it's not a complete disaster. > > I can't really see a way around it, other than to *only* set the default quote marks on the basis of the language declared on the html tag. (The user would have to replicate that using CSS for elements lower down the hierarchy if they have a multilingual document.) > > Thoughts? That was sort of intentional in the way I wrote my selector. Rather than going for the language of the reader as the one to use for the quotation marks, I went with the language surrounding the (potentially nested) quotes. The only alternative I can think of would be to go with the language of the root element, but that seems arbitrary and more failure prone. - Florian