9429 2010-04-06 01:51:58 +0000 Unobsolete the <strike> element - instead suggest how to use it 2011-02-17 08:20:09 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG pre-LC1 HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson) unspecified All All CLOSED FIXED http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#strike NE P2 normal LC 1 xn--mlform-iua ian excors hsivonen ian james mike ojan public-html-admin public-html-wg-issue-tracking shelleyp xn--mlform-iua public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 34586 0 xn--mlform-iua 2010-04-06 01:51:58 +0000 Strike and s are on the non-conforming list. And the spec says: ]] For the s and strike elements, if they are marking up a removal from the element, consider using the del element instead. [[ Please make it conforming. Strike * has better compatibility than <del> * is more semantic than <span style="text-decoration:linethrough"> * has better compatibility than <span style="text-decoration:linethrough"> See message with a compatibiliy comparison of <del>, <span w/linethrough> and <strike> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Mar/0732 It seems to be a not uncommon thing to make use of a linethrough style for signalling that "the time is out" or that piece of information no longer is relevant (because the event has become historical etc). Example of such use of the linethrough style: http://kunstkritikk.no/kalender/liste/69210?range=week&time=1270764000 Others have suggested that strike could be used in a similar way in bugzillas. For these cases, <del> does not seem right - the document would not be complete without the striked content. 34587 1 xn--mlform-iua 2010-04-06 01:54:33 +0000 <strike>, like many other of the character level elements with presentational semantics, works better in contexts where CSS is not an option. 34588 2 xn--mlform-iua 2010-04-06 02:03:58 +0000 <strike>, like many other of the character level elements with presentational semantics, can also be used whenever we do not know anything about the semantics - except how it looks and what we can assume. For instance, an historical text which should be marked up to match what its historical state: If striked out text is marked up with <del>, then it indicates that we are in full command of these editions. <strike> can be used to present a freeze of a text in some state. Whereas <del> can be used to mark-up a "living" document. 34841 3 ian 2010-04-13 01:11:12 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Did Not Understand Request Change Description: no spec change Rationale: What would you describe the media-independent semantic of <s> as? 34954 4 xn--mlform-iua 2010-04-13 17:52:20 +0000 (In reply to comment #3) > Status: Did Not Understand Request > Change Description: no spec change > Rationale: What would you describe the media-independent semantic of <s> as? The s/strike element represents a span of text which is still part of its context (it has not been deleted from the text). The s/strike element represents a particular kind of emphasize. It can be described as a time based, negative emphasize. When reading a piece of tex which has been marked up with a s/strike element, then the reader is meant to think that something which has happened *outside* this text probably makes what is said here not relevant. It then depends on the reader’s ability to orientate himself/herself whether he/she understands why it has marked up with <s>/<strike>. Thus <s>/<strike> calls the reader’s attention to issues not found in the text itself. These issues can be that time has passed - 2008.12.28 is no longer a future date. Or the times mentioned in the TV program of yesterday, should no longer be considered relevant (but some readers might still find it useful to check which programme that was aired yesterday, so such a document is not irrelevant once the time is up). Striking such things out may help those who provide the info so that they do not receive enquires about events that have already taken place. When it comes to paper based, historical texts in written or printed form and which contains bits of text which are striked over, then too the <s>/<strike> can be used whenever the striking itself represents something that has be added "added to the paper" rather than being added to the text itself. Thus, in this case, the <s>/<strike> means that the reader - which could be a scholar - needs to not accept that the text with the strike has been deleted. Instead he/she should investigate factors outside the text in order to find out what the strike means. 34979 5 ian 2010-04-13 23:07:36 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Did Not Understand Request Change Description: no spec change Rationale: Hmm... I might be able to work with that... How should it be rendered in a speech browser? 34980 6 ian 2010-04-13 23:10:14 +0000 (regarding comment 4, maybe "indicates that the contents are no longer accurate or no longer relevant" would be a good summary of those semantics.) 35001 7 xn--mlform-iua 2010-04-14 02:24:56 +0000 (In reply to comment #5) > Status: Did Not Understand Request > Change Description: no spec change > Rationale: Hmm... I might be able to work with that... How should it be > rendered in a speech browser? Isn't the question about speech browsers also relevant when it comes to the <b> element? Is there a clear way to indicate <b> as opposed to e.g. <em> or <strong> in speech browsers? If there arent a clear diff for <b>, then why need there be a clear way for <strike>? I am not sure how speech browsers should operate. Somewhat related: when I tested Lynx and its relatives, then only one or two of them made any distinction between <strike> and <del> (some did not understand <del>). A text console based browser requires that the user learns himself/herself to interpret those conventions that the text browser offers. Likewise, if a speech based browser announces a span of <del> as "deleted", then a span of <strike> could be announced as "striked". If speech browsers is to separat the striked text stylistcally, rather than through an announcement, then I am unsure. May be reading it a little faster could be an option? When it is read faster, then one pays less attention to it. Authors should probably not overdo things - to overuse of the <strike>/<s> element could perhaps be annoying to listen to. 35002 8 xn--mlform-iua 2010-04-14 02:37:30 +0000 (In reply to comment #6) > (regarding comment 4, maybe "indicates that the contents are no longer accurate > or no longer relevant" would be a good summary of those semantics.) I guess I could live with that. If I were to bring in another aspect, then, "issues outside the text - which the reader has to be aware of" comes to mind. OTOH, this can perhaps be said to be coved by your summary, becuase: the reason why it is not any longer accurate or relevant, is up to the reader to understand. So the summary is probably fine. Btw, speech browsers: The point is to make the reader wonder why it has been striked out. For a sighted user, then a striked out text is a little bit awkward to read, but immediately calls the attention. I don't know if the same can be achieved in a speech browsers. 38912 9 xn--mlform-iua 2010-09-12 13:20:52 +0000 I have provided new info belo. 39650 10 ian 2010-09-28 05:17:16 +0000 I'm a little concerned about the difficulty of coming up with a good speech presentation. That's usually a sign that the element is actually presentational rather than semantic. I'm interested in the opinion of others on the usefulness of having an element to convey the semantic "indicates that the contents are no longer accurate or no longer relevant". 39725 11 hsivonen 2010-09-28 12:27:44 +0000 I approve of and encourage unobsoleting <strike>. "No longer accurate or relevant" works for me as a semantic fig leaf. 40000 12 ian 2010-09-29 19:23:34 +0000 For consistency with the rest of the language (hah!) I think I'll use <s> and leave <strike> as an obsolete synonym. 40021 13 ian 2010-09-29 22:27:54 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Partially Accepted Change Description: see diff given below Rationale: Added <s>, not <strike>. 40022 14 contributor 2010-09-29 22:28:14 +0000 Checked in as WHATWG revision r5561. Check-in comment: Adding the <s> element to the language. http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5560&to=5561 40189 15 shelleyp 2010-09-30 15:52:17 +0000 I have filed a new bug on this item: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10862 I am not escalating this item, because this issue seems to be more about making strike obsolete, not adding s. 44548 16 xn--mlform-iua 2011-01-21 07:06:55 +0000 I am satisfied that you added <s> 45755 17 ojan 2011-02-17 08:20:09 +0000 FWIW, WebKit has just changed to match IE/Gecko and have execCommand('strikeThrough') generate <strike> instead of <s> due to web compat. See https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53475.