28404 2015-04-03 16:30:10 +0000 Calculating the accessible name of a table based on caption is sometimes not ideal 2018-05-03 21:19:45 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified ARIA HTML AAM Future PC Linux RESOLVED INVALID P2 normal --- 1 jdiggs faulkner.steve faulkner.steve jason john surkov.alexander oldest_to_newest 119225 0 jdiggs 2015-04-03 16:30:10 +0000 Apologies for the vague summary, but since it's not clear what the bug or fix is, it is the best I can do at the moment. ;) If authors do something like is showing in this example: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element And if authors do not use aria-labelledby or aria-label to provide a name for the table, the accessible name of the table is to be calculated from the caption element as per this: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation Going back to the example in the HTML5 spec, the resulting accessible name is: 'Table 1. This table shows the total score obtained from rolling two six-sided dice. The first row represents the value of the first die, the first column the value of the second die. The total is given in the cell that corresponds to the values of the two dice.' While we've never (as far as I'm aware) specified that names are expected to be short, that is (as far as I'm aware) the understanding most of us in the accessibility community are operating under. Longer, descriptive, detailed information seems more appropriate for the accessible description. Having said all that, I'm not sure what the right answer is. It might be author guidance pointing out that if they provide descriptive information in the caption, they should also use aria-label or aria-labelled by. It might be tweaking the name calculation heuristic for tables. For instance, the HTML 5 spec example would be solved by using the first child element of the caption as the name (though heuristics are fragile by nature and maybe that would just make things worse). The only thing I know for sure, as a screen reader developer, is that ginormous accessible names are not ideal. 119227 1 john 2015-04-03 17:46:31 +0000 > The only thing I know for sure, as a screen reader developer, is that ginormous accessible names are not ideal. +1 to that. 119228 2 jdiggs 2015-04-03 17:55:48 +0000 To clarify something in my opening report: > Having said all that, I'm not sure what the right answer is. It might be > author guidance pointing out that if they provide descriptive information in > the caption, they should also use aria-label or aria-labelled by. What I meant is "use aria-label or aria-labelled by **to provide a short name that does not include the descriptive information**." Because if authors do that, the name will be short and the caption will wind up in the accessible description (if no other description trumps it in the calculation algorithm). 119235 3 faulkner.steve 2015-04-04 09:00:44 +0000 (In reply to Joanmarie Diggs from comment #0) > Apologies for the vague summary, but since it's not clear what the bug or > fix is, it is the best I can do at the moment. ;) > > If authors do something like is showing in this example: > http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element > > And if authors do not use aria-labelledby or aria-label to provide a name > for the table, the accessible name of the table is to be calculated from the > caption element as per this: > http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element- > accessible-name-calculation > > Going back to the example in the HTML5 spec, the resulting accessible name > is: 'Table 1. This table shows the total score obtained from rolling two > six-sided dice. The first row represents the value of the first die, the > first column the value of the second die. The total is given in the cell > that corresponds to the values of the two dice.' > > While we've never (as far as I'm aware) specified that names are expected to > be short, that is (as far as I'm aware) the understanding most of us in the > accessibility community are operating under. Longer, descriptive, detailed > information seems more appropriate for the accessible description. > > Having said all that, I'm not sure what the right answer is. It might be > author guidance pointing out that if they provide descriptive information in > the caption, they should also use aria-label or aria-labelled by. It might > be tweaking the name calculation heuristic for tables. For instance, the > HTML 5 spec example would be solved by using the first child element of the > caption as the name (though heuristics are fragile by nature and maybe that > would just make things worse). The only thing I know for sure, as a screen > reader developer, is that ginormous accessible names are not ideal. hi Joanmarie, i agree with you assessment, one option is to improve the advice in html5 spec, which I think needs doing. The history behind how that advice came to be in the spec is not one of collaboration and think we can do better. 129199 4 w3cbugzilla 2018-05-03 21:19:45 +0000 HTML AAM is no longer an ARIA Deliverable. If you wish to pursue this issue please file at https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues