24642 2014-02-13 01:05:10 +0000 Should it be conforming to use role=presentation for tables that have border=1? 2014-05-08 15:22:27 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG HTML5 spec unspecified PC All CLOSED WONTFIX http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#attr-table-border a11y, aria P2 normal --- 24647 1 xn--mlform-iua dave.null eoconnor faulkner.steve lwatson master.skywalker.88 mike public-html-admin public-html-wg-issue-tracking robin rubys schwer xn--mlform-iua public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 100460 0 xn--mlform-iua 2014-02-13 01:05:10 +0000 See: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/index.html#attributes-1 And: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#attr-table-border According to the first URL, the table@border attribute is an ”Explicit indication that the table element is not being used for layout purposes”. (Second URL basically repeats the same message.) As the spec stands, it does not make sense to combine border=1 with role=presentation since the two attributes send different messages to user agents regarding whether the table is a layout table or a data table. E.g. to visual users, the table could easily be perceived as a data table, while for AT users it would probably be perceived as a layout table. Hence I ask the editors to consider whether it should be non-conforming to combine role=presentation and (conforming) border attribute values on the same table. 100479 1 xn--mlform-iua 2014-02-13 10:00:25 +0000 By applying the proposal in bug 24647, the semantic class between table@border and table@role=presentation, would be removed. 100496 2 robin 2014-02-13 11:08:27 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the Editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the Tracker Issue; or you may create a Tracker Issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Rejected Change Description: none Rationale: As per bug 24591 @border ought to be made nonconforming anyway. 100519 3 xn--mlform-iua 2014-02-13 12:32:01 +0000 (In reply to Robin Berjon from comment #2) > http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html > > Status: Rejected > Change Description: none > Rationale: As per bug 24591 @border ought to be made nonconforming anyway. As per the my comments in bug 24591, including reference to a HTML WG decision, it does not make sense to keep border out of the list of permitted attributes. 100528 4 master.skywalker.88 2014-02-13 13:20:06 +0000 (In reply to Robin Berjon from comment #2) >As per bug 24591 @border ought to be made nonconforming anyway. It wasn't. [[To help users with this, user agents should clearly delineate cells in a table from each other, unless the user agent has classified the table as a (non-conforming) layout table. The use of the non-conforming border attribute with a value other than 0...]] Source: WHATWG HTML spec. [[ If a table is to be used for layout it must be marked with the attribute role="presentation" for a user agent to properly represent the table to an assistive technology and to properly convey the intent of the author to tools that wish to extract tabular data from the document. The border attribute may be specified on a table element to explicitly indicate that the table element is not being used for layout purposes. If specified, the attribute's value must either be the empty string or the value "1". The attribute is used by certain user agents as an indication that borders should be drawn around cells of the table. The use of the border attribute with the non-conforming value 0...]] Source: W3C HTML Spec. Just in case you forgot it. Am I the only one who sees the difference? The first spec stated FROM THE BEGINNING that @border is non conforming. In the second one someone clearly did the mistake to exclude it, at some point, from the list of allowed attributes, but it's clearly a spec which considers @border conforming. Why? Because it works. I'm about to post a reply on bug 24647. See the difference between data table and non-data table by yourself and tell me that borders are not semantic in any way. 101628 5 robin 2014-02-28 16:21:08 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the Editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the Tracker Issue; or you may create a Tracker Issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Rejected Change Description: none Rationale: Since @border is used a a heuristic to indicate that table, which is a non-presentational element, is indeed non-presentational, it is only natural that authors be able to override the non-presentational-non-presenational heuristic by indicating that it is, in fact, presentational if they need to. 105444 6 schwer 2014-05-08 15:22:27 +0000 this is conforming per May 8 HTML A11y Task force meeting.