18574 2012-08-15 11:58:39 +0000 @hidden should have a weak mapping to aria-hidden=true 2014-01-16 15:11:38 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG HTML5 spec unspecified PC All RESOLVED FIXED http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/wai-aria.html#table-aria-strong a11y, aria, CR P3 normal --- 19277 23371 1 xn--mlform-iua faulkner.steve devarshipant eoconnor faulkner.steve hans.hillen ian jcraig john mike public-html-a11y public-html-admin public-html-wg-issue-tracking robin schwer surkov.alexander travil public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 72197 0 xn--mlform-iua 2012-08-15 11:58:39 +0000 Disambiguate @hidden from @aria-hidden=true. @hidden is currently listed in HTML5's strong ARIA mappings table. It should rather be in the ha weak mapping table.[0] The strong mapping table currently says about the hidden attribute that: [1] 1. "The Strong native semantics and default implied ARIA semantics" 2. for an "Element with a hidden attribute" 3. is "The aria-hidden state set to "true". Similarly, the table says about the empty alt attribute: 1. "The Strong native semantics and default implied ARIA semantics" 2. for an "img element whose alt attribute's value is empty" 2. is "presentation role" Now: We know that the empty alt attribute causes screenreaders to interpret the image as presentational in a very literal sense. [2] Hence, one could expect that @hidden as well would be mapped to its correspoding aria attribute quite literally. However, as of yet, no such correspondence is documented - @hidden does seemingly not map whether to A11Y APIs or to WAI-ARIA. [3] And if @hidden had been a direct synonym for @aria-hidden=true in the same way that the empty alt="" is a synonym for role=presentation, then one would have expected the following paragraph to be _hidden_ from AT: <p hidden style="display:block">Lorem ipsum However, no ATs hide the above paragraph from users. Because it turns out that there are currently no difference, to ATs, between @style="display:none" and @hidden. In addition, the issue of ISSUE 204, is about allowing ATs to "jump around" inside a section that that has been hidden with the @hidden attribute. So what if that section - or a nested section inside that section - has aria-hidden=true? Would AT then see it? Example: <p hidden style="display:block" aria-hidden="true" id=D >Lorem ipsum Currently, at least, thy would not see the above. And for that reason, one should assume that if @aria-describedby="D" pointed to the above example, then ATs would not perceive it as a "rich" description - but would rather read it as a "flattened" description. (This _could_ be a feature in itself, e.g. if the author wants to make sure that the section is flattened to all AT suers.) The weak ARIA mapping table is for semantivs that can be overridden: "Some HTML elements have native semantics that can be overridden". And I think that current status - and the outcome of ISSUE-204, indicates that the weeak table is more correct. [0] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/wai-aria.html#table-aria-weak [1] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/wai-aria.html#table-aria-strong [2] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html#el-59 [3] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html#att-22 76531 1 eoconnor 2012-10-17 23:01:06 +0000 Blocked on bug 19277. 96311 2 jcraig 2013-11-14 08:38:27 +0000 Agree this should be in the Weak table. Currently WebKit is the only UA that correctly implements, which is unfortunately and explicitly disallowed by keeping this in the Strong table. <div hidden aria-hidden="false"> <p>exposed to accessibility API, but not rendered visually</p> </div> 96330 3 sideshowbarker+gitzilla 2013-11-14 09:52:25 +0000 Commit pushed to master at https://github.com/w3c/html https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/450185e45fde0f23d00b5d97ad500d5fdc50b76b fix hidden/aria-hidden see bug 18574 96331 4 faulkner.steve 2013-11-14 09:56:45 +0000 I have made a change to the spec: removed hidden from strong native semantics table (should have been removed previously anyway so was a bug. Changed hidden in weak mapping table to allow both aria-hidden true/false to be set by an author on an element with a hidden attribute. if this resolves the issue please indicate and I will close bug https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/450185e45fde0f23d00b5d97ad500d5fdc50b76b Note: this change will not appear in spec until build script has been fixed (currently stuck on editors draft 7 november) 96357 5 schwer 2013-11-15 14:48:21 +0000 Good. Thanks Steve. 96359 6 jcraig 2013-11-15 16:09:58 +0000 Thanks Steve 97177 7 surkov.alexander 2013-12-05 15:59:49 +0000 aria-hidden="false" on @hidden element got some discussion at Mozilla bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194. I've got a feeling the proposed feature is not clear enough for implementation, agreed and moreover it contradicts to ARIA implementation guide. I tried to summarize all it here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194#c52. I would be happier if the added wording will be backed out, at least until the dust settles down and the feature gets agreed, perhaps implemented and approbated by interested parties (WebKit?). Otherwise the spec puts disputable features into the law and that makes me worry. 97181 8 faulkner.steve 2013-12-05 16:18:47 +0000 (In reply to alexander surkov from comment #7) > aria-hidden="false" on @hidden element got some discussion at Mozilla bug > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194. I've got a feeling the > proposed feature is not clear enough for implementation, agreed and moreover > it contradicts to ARIA implementation guide. I tried to summarize all it > here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194#c52. > > I would be happier if the added wording will be backed out, at least until > the dust settles down and the feature gets agreed, perhaps implemented and > approbated by interested parties (WebKit?). Otherwise the spec puts > disputable features into the law and that makes me worry. thanks Alex, one note, it's currently only in the spec for review (such as what has been occurring) and not 'into law'. the bug has not yet been resolved. If the bug gets resolved and any WG member feels it needs to be revisited, they can escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group,For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html 97183 9 surkov.alexander 2013-12-05 16:26:14 +0000 Ok, good to know, thanks, Steve. 98329 10 surkov.alexander 2014-01-13 16:49:52 +0000 (some summary I need to make after w3c call) so I'm more or less ok with aria-hidden="false" as an approach to create an alternative content to assistive technology users. I don't really have strong opinion on this particular bug (i.e. whether aria-hidden="false" should override HTML5 @hidden) but I can live with any outcome, I would delegate the issue to people who knows HTML5 presumably better than me. In that light it would be great to have WHATWG aboard, in particular, because Ian expressed a different opinion (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194#c46). 98332 11 faulkner.steve 2014-01-13 17:09:24 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the Editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the Tracker Issue; or you may create a Tracker Issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Accepted Change Description: see Comment 4 Rationale: agreed with initial comment and subsequent discussion on ARIA call http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jan/0008.html 98333 12 faulkner.steve 2014-01-13 17:13:09 +0000 (In reply to alexander surkov from comment #10) > (some summary I need to make after w3c call) so I'm more or less ok with > aria-hidden="false" as an approach to create an alternative content to > assistive technology users. I don't really have strong opinion on this > particular bug (i.e. whether aria-hidden="false" should override HTML5 > @hidden) but I can live with any outcome, I would delegate the issue to > people who knows HTML5 presumably better than me. In that light it would be > great to have WHATWG aboard, in particular, because Ian expressed a > different opinion (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194#c46). Hi Alex, agree it would be good to have full agreement. Note as per Comment 11 "If you have additional information and would like the Editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the Tracker Issue; or you may create a Tracker Issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html" Like you, Ian is a member of the HTML WG and is free to re-open with new information or raise an issue in the WG. 98611 13 sideshowbarker+gitzilla 2014-01-16 15:11:38 +0000 Commit pushed to CR at https://github.com/w3c/html https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/450185e45fde0f23d00b5d97ad500d5fdc50b76b fix hidden/aria-hidden