17094 2012-05-18 10:30:37 +0000 Define segment formats for MPEG2-TS 2012-12-13 02:39:46 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG Media Source Extensions unspecified All All RESOLVED FIXED tpac2012 P1 normal --- 20253 1 duncan.rowden b.lund acolwell adrianba alex.giladi b.lund eric.carlson mike public-html-media public-html-wg-issue-tracking watsonm public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 67850 0 duncan.rowden 2012-05-18 10:30:37 +0000 From a broadcasters perspective it would be of great interest to add a section under chapter "6. Byte Stream Formats" that describes MPEG2-TS. If that's acceptable, I can suggest some non-normative text to be included. 68081 1 1134 alex.giladi 2012-05-24 15:20:11 +0000 Created attachment 1134 Proposed text for MPEG-2 TS segment format 68609 2 watsonm 2012-06-05 00:35:19 +0000 "If for some reason a web application doesn't want to append data at the beginning of the timeline, it can derive the starting timestamp from the earliest PTS of the Media Segment." I don't understand this sentence. Can you explain ? Specifically, how does it work if I seek into the middle of a piece of on-demand content and later want to seek to an earlier position in the content ? 68730 3 alex.giladi 2012-06-05 14:02:25 +0000 (In reply to comment #2) > "If for some reason a web application doesn't want to append data at the > beginning of the timeline, it can derive the starting timestamp from the > earliest PTS of the Media Segment." > > I don't understand this sentence. Can you explain ? Specifically, how does it > work if I seek into the middle of a piece of on-demand content and later want > to seek to an earlier position in the content ? The meaning is: the smallest value of PTS within the segment is its starting timestamp (a.k.a. earliest presentation time). I guess it is a redundant statement. I don't think this statement helps seeking in any way -- EPT of a segment doesn't help you here. 68843 4 1142 alex.giladi 2012-06-07 16:05:59 +0000 Created attachment 1142 Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text 68845 5 acolwell 2012-06-07 16:34:00 +0000 (In reply to comment #4) > Created attachment 1142 [details] > Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text Are these requirement compatible with the HLS spec (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-08)? While I'm not a huge fan of including MPEG-2 TS in the spec, I can understand why some would want it. I want to make sure HLS can be supported if we decide to include this. 68846 6 alex.giladi 2012-06-07 17:26:06 +0000 (In reply to comment #5) > (In reply to comment #4) > > Created attachment 1142 [details] [details] > > Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text > > Are these requirement compatible with the HLS spec > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-08)? Yes, they are.(In reply to comment #5) > (In reply to comment #4) > > Created attachment 1142 [details] [details] > > Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text > > Are these requirement compatible with the HLS spec > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-08)? Yes, they are -- they are actually a bit stricter than HLS. > While I'm not a huge fan of including MPEG-2 TS in the spec, I can understand > why some would want it. I want to make sure HLS can be supported if we decide > to include this. +1. 69236 7 watsonm 2012-06-19 15:29:15 +0000 When you say "compatible with HLS" do you mean (1) Any segments compatible with HLS will also be compatible with the requirements here, or (2) Segments compatible with the requirements here are also compatible with HLS, or (3) both of the above ? (In reply to comment #6) > (In reply to comment #5) > > (In reply to comment #4) > > > Created attachment 1142 [details] [details] [details] > > > Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text > > > > Are these requirement compatible with the HLS spec > > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-08)? > Yes, they are.(In reply to comment #5) > > (In reply to comment #4) > > > Created attachment 1142 [details] [details] [details] > > > Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text > > > > Are these requirement compatible with the HLS spec > > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-08)? > Yes, they are -- they are actually a bit stricter than HLS. > > > While I'm not a huge fan of including MPEG-2 TS in the spec, I can understand > > why some would want it. I want to make sure HLS can be supported if we decide > > to include this. > +1. 69255 8 acolwell 2012-06-19 20:34:21 +0000 (In reply to comment #7) > When you say "compatible with HLS" do you mean > (1) Any segments compatible with HLS will also be compatible with the > requirements here, or > (2) Segments compatible with the requirements here are also compatible with > HLS, or > (3) both of the above > Ideally (3) if that is reasonable to do. If not then I'd prefer to fall back to (2) so that existing content could be slightly modified to work with existing clients and the Media Source Extensions. The only reason I'm willing to consider MPEG2-TS is because there is HLS content on the Web and a major media engine implementation that is driving its creation. Content providers might want to reuse this HLS content with the Media Source Extensions so it seems reasonable to explore the idea. Personally I'd prefer to stop pushing MPEG2-TS's legacy into the future, but I realize this decision isn't only up to me. 69613 9 alex.giladi 2012-07-03 22:47:21 +0000 (In reply to comment #8) > (In reply to comment #7) > > When you say "compatible with HLS" do you mean > > (1) Any segments compatible with HLS will also be compatible with the > > requirements here, or > > (2) Segments compatible with the requirements here are also compatible with > > HLS, or > > (3) both of the above > > > > Ideally (3) if that is reasonable to do. If not then I'd prefer to fall back to > (2) so that existing content could be slightly modified to work with existing > clients and the Media Source Extensions. (2), with (3) happening nearly always. The difference is that HLS does not disallow "bad practices" that makes switching problematic (e.g. starting a segment in the middle of a picture). In practice, I have never seen an encoder that does this. 69615 10 watsonm 2012-07-03 23:02:07 +0000 (In reply to comment #9) > (In reply to comment #8) > > (In reply to comment #7) > > > When you say "compatible with HLS" do you mean > > > (1) Any segments compatible with HLS will also be compatible with the > > > requirements here, or > > > (2) Segments compatible with the requirements here are also compatible with > > > HLS, or > > > (3) both of the above > > > > > > > Ideally (3) if that is reasonable to do. If not then I'd prefer to fall back to > > (2) so that existing content could be slightly modified to work with existing > > clients and the Media Source Extensions. > (2), with (3) happening nearly always. > > The difference is that HLS does not disallow "bad practices" that makes > switching problematic (e.g. starting a segment in the middle of a picture). On indeed somewhere that does not have an I-Frame. (2) is reasonable, but I think if we are not planning to *guarantee* (1) we should be clear about that, even if you think that in practice a lot of existing HLS content will work. In > practice, I have never seen an encoder that does this. 69621 11 alex.giladi 2012-07-03 23:28:14 +0000 (In reply to comment #10) > (In reply to comment #9) > > (In reply to comment #8) > > > (In reply to comment #7) > > > > When you say "compatible with HLS" do you mean > > > > (1) Any segments compatible with HLS will also be compatible with the > > > > requirements here, or > > > > (2) Segments compatible with the requirements here are also compatible with > > > > HLS, or > > > > (3) both of the above > > > > > > > > > > Ideally (3) if that is reasonable to do. If not then I'd prefer to fall back to > > > (2) so that existing content could be slightly modified to work with existing > > > clients and the Media Source Extensions. > > (2), with (3) happening nearly always. > > > > The difference is that HLS does not disallow "bad practices" that makes > > switching problematic (e.g. starting a segment in the middle of a picture). > > On indeed somewhere that does not have an I-Frame. > > (2) is reasonable, but I think if we are not planning to *guarantee* (1) we > should be clear about that, even if you think that in practice a lot of > existing HLS content will work. Agreed. 72410 12 acolwell 2012-08-18 16:50:14 +0000 Assigning to Bob Lund since he volunteered to champion this. 73447 13 1183 b.lund 2012-09-07 21:15:18 +0000 Created attachment 1183 Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text 80056 14 acolwell 2012-12-13 02:39:46 +0000 Changes committed http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/rev/e1c91093dfdc I used the text attached to this bug as a starting point and then I integrated various things from the many emails we've exchanged on this topic. I believe I've covered everything, but please reopen the bug with some comments if you believe I've missed something. 1134 2012-05-24 15:20:11 +0000 2012-06-07 16:05:59 +0000 Proposed text for MPEG-2 TS segment format MediaSourceTS.txt text/plain 1990 alex.giladi DQo2LjMgTVBFRy0yIFRyYW5zcG9ydCBTdHJlYW0gQnl0ZSBTdHJlYW1zDQpUaGlzIHNlY3Rpb24g aXMgbm9uLW5vcm1hdGl2ZS4NCg0KVGhpcyBzZWN0aW9uIGRlZmluZXMgc2VnbWVudCBmb3JtYXRz IGZvciBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgdGhhdCBjaG9vc2UgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCBNUEVHLTIgVHJhbnNw b3J0IFN0cmVhbSBJU08vSUVDIDEzODE4LTE6MjAxMiAoTVBFRy0yIFRTKS4NCg0KNi4zLjEuIEdl bmVyYWwNCk1QRUctMiBUUyBtZWRpYSBhbmQgaW5pdGlhbGl6YXRpb24gc2VnbWVudHMgdXNlZCBp biB0aGlzIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gc2hhbGwgY29uZm9ybSB0byB0aGUgTVBFRy0yIFRTIEFkYXB0 aXZlIFByb2ZpbGUgKElTTy9JRUMgMTM4MTgtMToyMDEyIEFtZC4gMikuDQpUaGUgZm9sbG93aW5n IHJ1bGVzIHNoYWxsIGFwcGx5IHRvIGFsbCBNUEVHLTIgVFMgbWVkaWEgc2VnbWVudHM6DQoxLiBT ZWdtZW50cyBzaGFsbCBjb250YWluIGNvbXBsZXRlIE1QRUctMiBUUyBwYWNrZXRzLiANCjIuIFNl 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1142 2012-06-07 16:05:59 +0000 2012-09-07 21:15:18 +0000 Updated version of the MPEG-2 TS text MediaSourceTS_r2.txt text/plain 2398 alex.giladi MS4yLjUuIEluaXRpYWxpemF0aW9uIFNlZ21lbnQNCg0KWy4uLl0NCg0KQ29udGFpbmVyIHNwZWNp ZmljIGV4YW1wbGVzIG9mIGluaXRpYWxpemF0aW9uIHNlZ21lbnRzOg0KWy4uLl0NCg0KTVBFRy0y IFRyYW5zcG9ydCBTdHJlYW0NCk1QRUctMiBUUyBwYWNrZXRzIGNhcnJ5aW5nIFBTSQ0KDQoxLjIu Ni4gTWVkaWEgU2VnbWVudA0KDQpbLi4uXQ0KQ29udGFpbmVyIHNwZWNpZmljIGV4YW1wbGVzIG9m IG1lZGlhIHNlZ21lbnRzOg0KDQpbLi4uXQ0KTVBFRy0yIFRTIHBhY2tldHMgY2FycnlpbmcgbWVk aWEgZGF0YSBhbmQgKG9wdGlvbmFsbHkpIFBTSS4NCg0KWy4uLl0NCg0KNi4zIE1QRUctMiBUcmFu c3BvcnQgU3RyZWFtIEJ5dGUgU3RyZWFtcw0KVGhpcyBzZWN0aW9uIGlzIG5vbi1ub3JtYXRpdmUu DQoNClRoaXMgc2VjdGlvbiBkZWZpbmVzIHNlZ21lbnQgZm9ybWF0cyBmb3IgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRp b25zIHRoYXQgY2hvb3NlIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgTVBFRy0yIFRyYW5zcG9ydCBTdHJlYW0gSVNPL0lF QyAxMzgxOC0xOjIwMTIgKE1QRUctMiBUUykuDQoNCjYuMy4xLiBHZW5lcmFsDQpNUEVHLTIgVFMg bWVkaWEgYW5kIGluaXRpYWxpemF0aW9uIHNlZ21lbnRzIHVzZWQgaW4gdGhpcyBzcGVjaWZpY2F0 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