13296 2011-07-19 07:31:24 +0000 The use of the <label> element as a 'caption' not clearly defined. 2011-08-15 13:37:01 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG LC1 HTML5 spec unspecified PC All RESOLVED WORKSFORME a11y, a11ytf P2 normal --- 1 joshue.oconnor contributor annevk cooper ian jackalmage joshue.oconnor laura.lee.carlson mike public-html-admin public-html-wg-issue-tracking public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 51257 0 joshue.oconnor 2011-07-19 07:31:24 +0000 In section 4.10.6 The label element, the label is said to represent a 'caption' in a user interface. There is however, no explanation of what 'caption' means in this context or why it may be needed (for example to make the form controls more accessible). Is it the same as a 'caption' for a data table, or is it similar to the figcaption etc? I suggest linking to the section of the spec that describes what a caption is, and what it is for as well as its content model etc. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-eleme 51270 1 jackalmage 2011-07-19 15:50:35 +0000 Presumably the relevant reference is an English dictionary. 51274 2 joshue.oconnor 2011-07-19 16:49:11 +0000 (In reply to comment #1) > Presumably the relevant reference is an English dictionary. Many thanks for your perspicacity, maybe it would help you to start there. 51275 3 jackalmage 2011-07-19 17:00:45 +0000 I wasn't being sarcastic. It's a caption. That's not a spec term, nor does it have any conformance requirements attached to it. It's just a word. 51277 4 joshue.oconnor 2011-07-19 17:21:04 +0000 (In reply to comment #3) > I wasn't being sarcastic. It's a caption. That's not a spec term, nor does it > have any conformance requirements attached to it. It's just a word. Ok, well it seems to me like you are being sarcastic. So that aside, nothing in the spec is just a 'word'. The use of words like 'table', 'form' etc all have specific meaning that is defined somewhere within the spec (usually rather clearly I may add). I am suggesting that this then needs to also happen here regarding the use of a 'caption' within a form - so authors are clear of the purpose of these things and how they behave. 51278 5 jackalmage 2011-07-19 17:36:46 +0000 Yes, some words have a specific meaning in the spec separate from their English meaning. Those words are linked to their definition when used. The word "caption" there in the first paragraph of the <label> element's description is not a link, and thus takes on its normal english definition. There are many words in this section that are not underlined, and thus take their normal english definitions, even if similar words are sometimes used in a specific spec meaning. 51279 6 joshue.oconnor 2011-07-19 17:46:03 +0000 (In reply to comment #5) > Yes, some words have a specific meaning in the spec separate from their English > meaning. Those words are linked to their definition when used. The word > "caption" there in the first paragraph of the <label> element's description is > not a link, and thus takes on its normal english definition. There are many > words in this section that are not underlined, and thus take their normal > english definitions, even if similar words are sometimes used in a specific > spec meaning. Yes, and this is why I am filling this bug as I think the fact 'caption' is not a link (to a suitable definition/content model etc) is an omission. 51281 7 jackalmage 2011-07-19 18:20:53 +0000 Once again, there is no content model implications. There is no conformance criteria. It's giving a plain-english description of what the element is meant for. Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word. 51282 8 joshue.oconnor 2011-07-19 18:27:00 +0000 (In reply to comment #7) > Once again, there is no content model implications. There is no conformance > criteria. I disagree, but we shall see. > Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word. ?? So how is an author to know the difference between the 'spec' use of a term, or the Websters/Concise Oxford use of the term? This seems ad hoc, and your persistence that I should just forget this issue and 'look in the dictionary' isn't helping. 51283 9 jackalmage 2011-07-19 18:35:34 +0000 (In reply to comment #8) > (In reply to comment #7) > > Once again, there is no content model implications. There is no conformance > > criteria. > > I disagree, but we shall see. I'm... not sure how you can disagree. That sentence links the word "represents"; if you follow the link, it's a statement that UAs are expected to render the element so that it conveys the represented meaning. That's not a conformance criteria, because there's no conformance words: not a single MAY, SHOULD, or MUST in there. Nor does the statement say or imply anything about the allowed contents of <label>. That is specified in subsequent sentences, which use conformance words and actually talk about the contents of <label>. > > Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word. > > ?? So how is an author to know the difference between the 'spec' use of a term, > or the Websters/Concise Oxford use of the term? This seems ad hoc, and your > persistence that I should just forget this issue and 'look in the dictionary' > isn't helping. If a term is linked, it's a spec term, and you should use the spec's definition (found by following the link) rather than the English dictionary. If not, it's an english word (or a generically techy word that we can expect readers to understand if they have the appropriate background to understand the spec at all). 51284 10 joshue.oconnor 2011-07-19 18:43:25 +0000 (In reply to comment #9) >That sentence links the word > "represents"; if you follow the link, it's a statement that UAs are expected to > render the element so that it conveys the represented meaning. That's not a > conformance criteria, because there's no conformance words: not a single MAY, > SHOULD, or MUST in there. FWIW, I have filed this bug in the event that there _maybe_ an issue (see above). You are saying there is not, so thank you. Your view is clear. However, I'm not satisfied by your assertion. 51285 11 laura.lee.carlson 2011-07-19 19:11:18 +0000 (In reply to comment #8) > (In reply to comment #7) > > Once again, there is no content model implications. There is no conformance > > criteria. > > I disagree, but we shall see. > > > Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word. > > ?? So how is an author to know the difference between the 'spec' use of a term, > or the Websters/Concise Oxford use of the term? General Definitions include: 1. the part of a legal document that shows where, when, and by what authority it was taken, found, or executed 2a. the heading especially of an article or document : title 2b : the explanatory comment or designation accompanying a pictorial illustration 3c : a motion-picture subtitle http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caption 1. A title, short explanation, or description accompanying an illustration or a photograph. 2. A series of words superimposed on the bottom of television or motion picture frames that communicate dialogue to the hearing-impaired or translate foreign dialogue. 3. A title or heading, as of a document or article. 4. Law The heading of a pleading or other document that identifies the parties, court, term, and number of the action. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/caption 1. a title or explanation for a picture or illustration, especially in a magazine. 2. a heading or title, as of a chapter, article, or page. 3. Movies, Television . the title of a scene, the text of a speech, etc., superimposed on the film and projected onto the screen. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/caption 52809 12 mike 2011-08-04 05:04:21 +0000 mass-moved component to LC1 54983 13 annevk 2011-08-14 13:53:48 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: <http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html>. Status: Rejected Change Description: no spec change Rationale: Tab is correct. It is not an omission and uses the dictionary meaning. 55084 14 annevk 2011-08-15 13:37:01 +0000 *** Bug 13620 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***