12925 2011-06-09 15:04:31 +0000 in the 1st example 3 'hr' are used like an anonymous 'h#' => 'hr' should move to 4.4. The final 'hr' is of a different kind and wouldn't be there if we had lists ('dl' here) nested inside 'p'. The second example is mostly like the first three 'hr', i.e. a 2011-09-04 01:26:27 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG LC1 HTML5 spec unspecified Other other RESOLVED WONTFIX http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-hr-element P3 normal --- 1 contributor ian bugzilla ian mike public-html-admin public-html-wg-issue-tracking public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 49386 0 contributor 2011-06-09 15:04:31 +0000 Specification: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/grouping-content.html Section: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-hr-element Comment: in the 1st example 3 'hr' are used like an anonymous 'h#' => 'hr' should move to 4.4. The final 'hr' is of a different kind and wouldn't be there if we had lists ('dl' here) nested inside 'p'. The second example is mostly like the first three 'hr', i.e. an anonymous heading. Furthermore multiple consecutive 'hr' should be folded into one instance, just like 'br'. Posted from: 90.136.73.175 User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_7; de-de) AppleWebKit/533.21.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.5 Safari/533.21.1 52937 1 mike 2011-08-04 05:05:29 +0000 mass-moved component to LC1 54781 2 ian 2011-08-12 19:41:08 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Did Not Understand Request Change Description: no spec change Rationale: I don't understand. Could you elaborate? 55255 3 bugzilla 2011-08-17 00:35:55 +0000 4.5.2 Example 1 <section> <h1>Communication</h1> <p>There are various methods of communication. …</p> <hr> <p>Communication stones …</p> <ul>…</ul> <hr> <p>Radios …</p> <hr> <p>Signal flares …</p> </section> In this part the 3 <hr> could be replaced by 3 <h2>, because they divide the section “Communication” into subsections “Stones”, “Radios” and “Flares”, hence they are ‘anonymous headings’ and therefore belong into section 4.4. <section> <h1>Food</h1> <p>All food at the project is rationed:</p> <dl>…</dl> <hr> <p>Cooking is done by the chefs on a set rotation.</p> </section> Here the sequence <p/><dl/><hr/> is used, because <p><dl/></p> is not possible in HTML. This is a different use of ‘hr’: it works at the paragraph level, not on the heading level, as above. 4.5.2 Example 2 (Pandora's Star by Peter F. Hamilton) The scene change, represented in the printed book by a gap containing a solitary centered star between the second and third paragraphs, is here represented using the hr element. In this case, again, ‘hr’ works like an anonymous subheading. Instead of <h1/><p/>…<hr/><p/>…<h1/>… one could have written <h1/><h2/><p/>…<h2/><p/>…<h1/>… just as well. The difference to the first part of the first example is that here all text belongs to a scene (‘h2’) and no text to the chapter (‘h1’) directly, whereas there the chapter had an introduction before the first sub-heading. In conclusion, ‘hr’ works either as an anonymous, implicit heading, usually one level lower than the last explicit one, or as a delayed paragraph end mark, which is below the lowest heading level. If we stripped it of the first function, it would fit where it is now, if we stripped it of its second function it would fit nicely with ‘h1’ through ‘h6’, but if it is left as is it fits neither place really. 55654 4 ian 2011-08-23 05:06:48 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Rejected Change Description: no spec change Rationale: I disagree. It's more like a paragraph than a heading. It's just a thematic break, it's not a whole new section. 55674 5 bugzilla 2011-08-23 08:37:08 +0000 > It's more like a paragraph than a heading. Only in the second case. Leave this, i.e. the sequence (p, (list | address | block…)+, hr) making ‘hr’ end an extended paragraph, as the only valid use case for ‘hr’ and I’m satisfied. > It's just a thematic break, it's not a whole new section. The first and third examples don’t make that clear. Remove them or move them to 4.4 (heading elements) and change "<hr>" to "<h2></h2>" as an example for when an empty heading is useful. Tracker issue title: Clear semantics for ‘hr’ Tracker issue text: Current examples suggest ‘hr’ could be used as kind of an empty or anonymous heading. If that is a valid use case, ‘hr’ should be grouped with other heading elements, if it is not, the examples should be changed. 55677 6 zcorpan 2011-08-23 09:08:12 +0000 Don't both reopen and add TrackerRequest. If you want to escalate, set status to RESOLVED WONTFIX and add TrackerRequest. 56258 7 ian 2011-09-04 01:26:27 +0000 (In reply to comment #5) > > It's more like a paragraph than a heading. > > Only in the second case. In all cases. > > It's just a thematic break, it's not a whole new section. > > The first and third examples don’t make that clear. The definition of the element is "The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break". How can one get more clear than that? The examples are not normative. The first example seems pretty clear on the matter though. Each <hr> separates themes within the section on communication: the first theme is related to stones, the second to radios, the third to flares. I don't know which example you mean by "third example". If you mean the second one in the <hr> section, then it is not hypothetical; it comes straight from a real book, where there's a real thematic break in the form of extra whitespace and a star, which is exactly what <hr> is for. > Remove them or move them to > 4.4 (heading elements) and change "<hr>" to "<h2></h2>" as an example for when > an empty heading is useful. An empty heading doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, IMHO. A heading is by definition not something that's empty. The star between two paragraphs in a novel is not a heading, nor a new section. It's just a thematic break. EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Rejected Change Description: no spec change Rationale: <hr> is, exactly as defined, a thematic break, which doesn't affect sectioning.