11129 2010-10-23 00:00:29 +0000 Remove forminput, formchange and related dispatch methods 2011-08-04 05:06:17 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG LC1 HTML5 spec unspecified PC All CLOSED FIXED P2 normal --- 1 erik.arvidsson ian amwebdk annevk ayg bugs ian mike mounir public-html-admin public-html-wg-issue-tracking robertc public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 41706 0 erik.arvidsson 2010-10-23 00:00:29 +0000 For context see the following thread http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/AANLkTinkgDsyOgWS=UaMdvF8_H9KRz_cwZM7_DXxbhPr@mail.gmail.com;list=public-webapps 42743 1 robertc 2010-11-24 02:59:26 +0000 I'm not sure I get the 'increasing the size of the API' argument, can someone expand on it? To pick a some examples for comparison: Is it worth increasing the size of the API to have valueAsNumber or valueAsDate when both can be easily worked around by the developer if required? Is it worth adding an output element when we could just have a span and use innerHTML? Why is this case less worthy than either of those two examples? I like that an onforminput attribute can be added to the output element. Even if that isn't really best practice it's simple for beginners to grasp, and it keeps all the logic for each output element in one place (and makes the output element much easier to explain). 43726 2 ian 2011-01-01 06:10:57 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Rejected Change Description: no spec change Rationale: Since you can't register capturing handlers declaratively, and since form controls can be all over the place in the DOM now, I think 'forminput' and 'formchange' are still very helpful and have clear use cases. As as straightforward demonstration of this, try to rewrite the examples in the spec that use these features to do them without onforminput/onformchange and see whether it's still as simple. 44650 3 945 bugs 2011-01-24 12:45:02 +0000 Created attachment 945 testcase without forminput or formchange I found 3 examples in the spec and all those can be trivially handled without these additional events. 44651 4 946 bugs 2011-01-24 12:49:40 +0000 Created attachment 946 testcase Oops, I left some unrelated alert() in the previous file. (I was just testing form element's scoping there..) 44652 5 mounir 2011-01-24 12:52:47 +0000 I'm reopening the bug because, like Olli, I do think forminput and formchange are not needed. 44653 6 bugs 2011-01-24 13:07:05 +0000 One problem with forminput/formchange -like broadcasting events is that what should happen when one of the targets is moved to another form or even another document when some other target for the events is handling the event. Well, perhaps nothing special shouldn't happen, but it would be rather strange to get forminput when the element is in a form which has never been used yet. In fact, that sort of breaks the algorithm's step 3 "For each element in controls, in tree order, fire a simple event named event name at the element." Depending on how you read that, tree order should be checked either just once before firing any events, or before each event. 44656 7 robertc 2011-01-24 14:38:10 +0000 > all those can be trivially handled without these additional events What does your definition of 'trivially handled' encompass? Here's the amount of JavaScript required in the spec examples purely in terms of character counts (not including spaces): calculator: 67 characters password validity: 37 characters car price: 15 characters Plus, slightly more meta, understanding of event bubbling required: false. With your examples: calculator: 200 characters password validity: 185 characters car price: 116 characters Understanding event bubbling required: true. I don't agree that you can so easily characterize a minimum of 300% more code and the requirement to understand event bubbling as trivial. > I do think forminput and formchange are not needed As I previously asked, why is this not needed, but valueAsNumber is? 44658 8 bugs 2011-01-24 15:10:00 +0000 (In reply to comment #7) You count things strangely. For example in the original car example there is over 350 characters javascript. > Understanding event bubbling required: true. ? I just happened to use addEventListener on document element using bubble phase. That is not the point. > As I previously asked, why is this not needed, but valueAsNumber is? This bug is not about valueAsNumber. I'm personally not at all sure why that is needed. parseFloat(value) and valueAsNumber are not that different. 44659 9 947 mounir 2011-01-24 15:11:11 +0000 Created attachment 947 testcase 2 With this file, there should be no overhead... 44743 10 zcorpan 2011-01-26 10:16:54 +0000 I think we should keep these events and the dispatch APIs. They're exist for convenience, and they are convenient. They're hardly an implementation burden. (Event handler attributes in general are also for convenience but are redundant with addEventListener.) 44744 11 bugs 2011-01-26 11:23:00 +0000 But what is the use case for the events and the related methods? 44745 12 bugs 2011-01-26 11:23:37 +0000 I mean use case which can't be trivially done with the existing events. 44746 13 zcorpan 2011-01-26 12:21:56 +0000 Use case is updating something when one out of many form controls are changed, using just one declarative event listener. Use case for dispatching the event is causing that event listener to run after some script has changed stuff, maybe initially when loading the page. 44751 14 bugs 2011-01-26 13:21:19 +0000 Those are not really a use cases, but descriptions how one could use the events and methods ;) Also, why couldn't scripts use the existing events for the first case? And for the latter one there could be just a javascript function to call. 44778 15 zcorpan 2011-01-26 21:41:21 +0000 (In reply to comment #14) > Those are not really a use cases, but descriptions how one could > use the events and methods ;) Consider a shopping cart where the customer can select the quantity of each item and the page updates the total amount on the fly. The author generates the shopping cart with PHP but doesn't know enough about javascript and DOM Events to be confident about how to walk the tree or use capturing event listeners (or even that they exist), so instead outputs the calculation script in the onforminput="" attribute with PHP since he already has implemented the logic to output the actual shopping cart itself with PHP. The end result might be something like: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/804 > Also, why couldn't scripts use the existing events for the first case? You need a capturing event listener for that, which is not available as markup and many authors who know enough to use event handler attributes don't know that capturing event listeners exist or how they work. > And for the latter one there could be just a javascript function to call. If you have several event handler content attributes you would need to call all of them. It's more convenient to dispatch an event. 44789 16 bugs 2011-01-27 09:39:26 +0000 (In reply to comment #15) > http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/804 So that could be written close the way the example 1 or 3 in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=947 > > You need a capturing event listener for that, which is not available as markup > and many authors who know enough to use event handler attributes don't know > that capturing event listeners exist or how they work. And why exactly do you need capturing event listeners? > If you have several event handler content attributes you would need to call all > of them. It's more convenient to dispatch an event. So why would it be more convenient to split the code to several forminput/change event handlers than just have one function? 44790 17 zcorpan 2011-01-27 10:09:49 +0000 (In reply to comment #16) > (In reply to comment #15) > > http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/804 > So that could be written close the way the example 1 or 3 in > http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=947 Ah. I assumed that change and input didn't bubble. That makes my case weaker indeed. > > You need a capturing event listener for that, which is not available as markup > > and many authors who know enough to use event handler attributes don't know > > that capturing event listeners exist or how they work. > And why exactly do you need capturing event listeners? Since change and input bubble, I don't. I do need to name="" my <output>s and put the logic further away from the <output>s, but that's not a big deal. > > If you have several event handler content attributes you would need to call all > > of them. It's more convenient to dispatch an event. > So why would it be more convenient to split the code to several > forminput/change event handlers than just have one function? Each <output> updates its own value when something changes. Just a different coding style. 44798 18 mounir 2011-01-27 14:39:49 +0000 So, there is still one situation mentioned by Hixie in comment 2 that hasn't been discussed: when form controls are "all over the place". I guess that means: <form id='f'></form> <input form='f' name='a'> <input form='f' name='b'> <output form='f' onforminput="value=parseFloat(a.value)+parseFloat(b.value);"> In that case we can't indeed use the capture or bubbling phases of the input and change events but I think there is no reason to care too much about this case given that I guess the real use cases to have form controls not descendants of their form owners is when they are very far away in the tree and I would guess that should not happen when you want to have an interaction between form controls. At worst, it's always possible to do it but it would be more painful: <form id='f'></form> <input form='f' name='a' oninput="updateOutput();"> <input form='f' name='b' oninput="updateOutput();"> <output form='f' name='o'> <script> function updateOutput(aForm) { aForm.o.value = parseFloat(aForm.a.value) + parseFloat(aForm.b.value); } </script> 44799 19 bugs 2011-01-27 14:52:16 +0000 (In reply to comment #18) > In that case we can't indeed use the capture or bubbling phases of the input > and change events ? Just add event listener using addEventListener or oninput / onchange to document or root element or somewhere and there just check if event.target.form is the form you're interested in. 44801 20 mounir 2011-01-27 15:05:33 +0000 (In reply to comment #19) > (In reply to comment #18) > > > In that case we can't indeed use the capture or bubbling phases of the input > > and change events > ? > > Just add event listener using addEventListener or oninput / onchange to > document or root element or somewhere and there just check > if event.target.form is the form you're interested in. I would personally prefer oninput on the form controls but both solutions work. I didn't want to say that there is no solution. I just wanted to make sure all points from comment 2 have been addressed ;) 46236 21 ian 2011-03-03 23:21:31 +0000 Hmm, the bubbling nature of these events combined with the change to put the event handlers on every element does make the case for this feature rather weaker. (They were added before we had changed the latter.) EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Accepted Change Description: see diff given below Rationale: Concurred with reporter's comments. 46237 22 contributor 2011-03-03 23:22:28 +0000 Checked in as WHATWG revision r5928. Check-in comment: Drop forminput and formchange events, and their associated machinery, since you can now put oninput and onchange everywhere which makes them far less compelling. http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5927&to=5928 53056 23 mike 2011-08-04 05:06:17 +0000 mass-moved component to LC1 945 2011-01-24 12:45:02 +0000 2011-01-24 12:49:40 +0000 testcase without forminput or formchange formoutput.html text/html 2665 bugs PGRpdj4KICA8aDM+RXhhbXBsZSAxLCBjYWxjdWxhdG9yICAobm8gbmVlZCBmb3IgZm9ybWlucHV0 KTwvaDM+CgogIDxmb3JtIG5hbWU9ImYxIj4KICAgIDxzY3JpcHQ+CiAgICAgIGRvY3VtZW50LmFk ZEV2ZW50TGlzdGVuZXIoImlucHV0IiwKICAgICAgICBmdW5jdGlvbihlKSB7CiAgICAgICAgICBp ZiAoZG9jdW1lbnQuZm9ybXMuZjEgPT0gZS50YXJnZXQuZm9ybSkKICAgICAgICAgICAgZS50YXJn ZXQuZm9ybS5vdXRwdXQudmFsdWUgPQogICAgICAgICAgICAgIHBhcnNlRmxvYXQoZS50YXJnZXQu Zm9ybS5hLnZhbHVlKSArIHBhcnNlRmxvYXQoZS50YXJnZXQuZm9ybS5iLnZhbHVlKTsKICAgICAg ICB9LCB0cnVlKTsKICAgIDwvc2NyaXB0PgogICAgPGlucHV0IG5hbWU9ImEiPgogICAgPGlucHV0 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