10829 2010-09-29 13:37:00 +0000 Remove the whitespace from the <rp> example 2012-01-31 22:34:07 +0000 1 1 1 Unclassified HTML WG LC1 HTML5 spec unspecified PC Windows XP RESOLVED FIXED P2 normal --- 1 public-i18n-cjk ian duerst fantasai.bugs ian ishida kennyluck mike public-html-admin public-html-wg-issue-tracking public-i18n-cjk public-i18n-core public-html-bugzilla oldest_to_newest 39960 0 public-i18n-cjk 2010-09-29 13:37:00 +0000 Comment from the i18n review of: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ Comment 6 At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0802-html5/ Editorial/substantive: E Tracked by: RI Location in reviewed document: 4.6.18 The ruby element [http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-20100624/text-level-semantics.html#the-ruby-element] Comment:The code samples in the ruby section are misleading because they show white-space between the components that should not be there. eg. ... <ruby> 漢 <rt> かん </rt> 字 <rt> じ </rt> </ruby> ... Please either show the examples as the code should look, eg. ... <ruby>漢<rt>かん</rt>字<rt>じ</rt></ruby> ... or add a note to say that the extra white space is there to show the structure clearly, but should not be copied. Similar comments apply to the examples in the rp section that follows. 40110 1 ian 2010-09-30 09:06:46 +0000 Would the white space actually affect the rendering? i.e. why is the whitespace bad? 40118 2 fantasai.bugs 2010-09-30 09:27:24 +0000 (In reply to comment #1) > Would the white space actually affect the rendering? i.e. why is the whitespace > bad? Chinese and Japanese do not use white space to separate words or other linguistic constructs. Therefore in these languages white space should not be introduced between characters. The white space collapsing rules in CSS2.1 do allow UAs to collapse white space surrounding a line feed to nothing; however this is not normatively required, and only IE has implemented this behavior. Additionally, the css3-ruby spec still does not define its interaction with white space collapsing rules. Even the line break transformation rules were normatively defined (which they will be in css3-text), to correctly collapse away white space between the base characters when using Pinyin ruby, the white space processing rules would have to ignore the ruby text. Given these complications, it is therefore safer to not include such white space in the source markup, and the HTML5 spec should adopt such a practice in its examples. 40282 3 919 public-i18n-core 2010-09-30 19:50:05 +0000 Created attachment 919 Ruby in IE showing white-space is kept around. 40283 4 public-i18n-core 2010-09-30 19:53:01 +0000 If drop the code in the example into a file and look at it in Chrome, the white-space disappears, but look at it in IE (on which this markup is supposed to be modelled) and you see the spaces in the text (see attachment just above). I wasn't able to tell from the spec why this should be treated differently from other phrasing content elements, such as span, where white-space is not automatically removed. This also brings into question the intended use of ruby markup. Some people view ruby markup as a mechanism that could be used for things like linguistic glosses (in fact i had a query from a member of the public just today about exactly that). In such cases they may want to annotate a string of words separated by spaces. If spaces are removed automatically from the outside edges of the base text, they would be forced to use separate <ruby> elements for each word annotated in such a sentence - which seems counter to the change in the HTML5 ruby markup model that allows several ruby base/text pairs within a single <ruby> element vs the more cumbersome Ruby Annotation model, where each simple ruby pairing had to have it's own <ruby> element. In other words, if white space is removed from around the base of HTML5 ruby, then presumably several pairs of ruby+ruby text should only be used with Japanese and Chinese. It's beginning to appear to me that this reveals a substantive rather than a merely editorial issue. 40801 5 ian 2010-10-07 19:51:07 +0000 I'll take comment 2, comment 3, and comment 4 to be a "yes" to comment 1. A simple "yes" would have sufficed. :-) EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Accepted Change Description: see diff given below Rationale: Concurred with reporter's comments. 40802 6 contributor 2010-10-07 19:52:35 +0000 Checked in as WHATWG revision r5590. Check-in comment: Fix the markup to match the example renderings. http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5589&to=5590 51553 7 ishida 2011-07-27 13:36:02 +0000 Thanks for the fixes to 4.6.20 The ruby element in the LC version, although I noticed that there's a trailing space on the last <rt> element in the first two examples. Is that intentional? The main purpose of this comment, however, is to mention that 4.6.22 The rp element in the LC version still has the original problem. If you really wanted to have the spaces beside the parens, you should add those to the rp element (because otherwise you'd have an anomaly between the last paren and the following text). But actually, in Japanese text you wouldn't have such space characters anyway. 51595 8 duerst 2011-07-28 00:49:51 +0000 (In reply to comment #7) > The main purpose of this comment, however, is to mention that 4.6.22 The rp > element in the LC version still has the original problem. > > If you really wanted to have the spaces beside the parens, you should add those > to the rp element (because otherwise you'd have an anomaly between the last > paren and the following text). Yes indeed. > But actually, in Japanese text you wouldn't > have such space characters anyway. Not exactly true. JIS X 4051 defines parentheses as half-width, with a half-width space attached to the outside, to together result in a full-width block. When there is a need for stretching or shrinking the line, the parentheses isn't affected, but the space is streched or shrunk. See also http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#en-subheading2_1_2. Ideally, this should happen automatically, independent of whether it's a half-width (ASCII) parenthesis or a full-width parenthesis (which has the half-width space 'built-in'). But current Web layout technology isn't there yet (at least not as far as I know), so it may need to be faked. Using a half-width (ASCII) parenthesis and a half-width (ASCII) space (outside the parenthesis, but inside the <rp>) is one way to do that. Using a full-width parenthesis is another way to do it. 54099 9 mike 2011-08-04 05:36:03 +0000 mass-move component to LC1 54282 10 ian 2011-08-06 03:31:05 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Accepted Change Description: see diff given below Rationale: Concurred with comment 7 54284 11 contributor 2011-08-06 03:33:47 +0000 Checked in as WHATWG revision r6380. Check-in comment: didn't fix this properly in r5590 http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6379&to=6380 61238 12 kennyluck 2011-12-08 12:46:25 +0000 You forgot to fix the example for rp. 63459 13 ian 2012-01-31 22:33:02 +0000 EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Accepted Change Description: see diff given below Rationale: Concurred with reporter's comments. 63460 14 contributor 2012-01-31 22:34:07 +0000 Checked in as WHATWG revision r6954. Check-in comment: Make this example more realistic. http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6953&to=6954 919 2010-09-30 19:50:05 +0000 2010-09-30 19:50:05 +0000 Ruby in IE showing white-space is kept around. rubyspacedout.png image/png 894 public-i18n-core iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAIwAAAA5CAIAAABrpVSvAAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAAARnQU1BAACx jwv8YQUAAAAgY0hSTQAAeiYAAICEAAD6AAAAgOgAAHUwAADqYAAAOpgAABdwnLpRPAAAAvxJREFU eF7tmdty5CAMRJP//+hJUp6iCCDRarBsJz1P+yAh1EcXnP18vV4f+t1cgW9I+t1cgY+b30/X+xl1 UuH+CgjS/Rmpkx7ASJAE6QkKPOCO2kmCZCjw/e2IaAOa9UfRjsit8m0gsbZfq3zgH3/vsM6ntS6O 9AnbU1458AJIB6Hj0sc/hlKu6CtIKzXx9gUh0Zxoxw25nXDEBZ1Ut860k7ieqCH9AWAXQEIU7NmE tEZCnFDxZx15GaR6M/nPM9/SeXRwjmcpvXDuBZAWbvtPXQXpAeAF6fmQohs4ao98xoaeDPWBtON0 R07B7tLh/TXZxGsSmwaL2iNUms/bFa1p32heUfsp5l/VZlXN8TSyfn3B4vY+p8VzfPfQe+/QHb9P 1B7nNNhJVvdYVRm1R5pp2sHIIUMbvLeieUXtlyA1XVKX0vTcpu6m9tOvHKL2naA4oX4LXKJDu5NK An0mw9yi9tPaB+NOwSMjGgEJ3meXDt6VhtvFn8XFpUxh0H66jRbPmdbBFPC7cqu/zSOLeZcO5v2d h0MDo07AQtvb4BOmTnXlnH5SgWyGjvimOen+P4VrpYRU0FH4RdCVObPrnL2E8M4+6f7tTrIapSZh td26NP7aA1vBKazoiyZ6n6g9mFELqaQBdkbU3lkY9RMO7GAwSXzY1rM9dJ9dOjgZmeOu3zrDU3ZV 0K5z1nv62okyFtnalv7oqOvOH9x1VXrFAnzec20B9txNdAhA6tvIEsj6mIgKuuuc8zqpf7z5w8a3 D5WON+6aJphOJMTe2UzNVmiaNZRVeexEa2UYFMmrDoTYh9IZQ7JmVLMkay0shMS46xPo4yJJ0oSI vErfLOoAjTskedkkK6D/mU0WnAknSIxqyT6ClCw4E06QGNWSfQQpWXAmnCAxqiX7CFKy4Ew4QWJU S/YRpGTBmXCCxKiW7CNIyYIz4QSJUS3ZR5CSBWfCCRKjWrKPICULzoQTJEa1ZB9BShacCSdIjGrJ PoKULDgTTpAY1ZJ9BClZcCbcF+db/KEiy3opAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC