14:11:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #vcwg
14:11:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/10/21-vcwg-irc
14:11:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:11:29 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:11:41 <ivan> Meeting: Verifiable Credentials Working Group Telco
14:11:41 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/84c997c3-bd27-4e7e-8eac-54cd977a4b03/20261021T110000/
14:11:41 <ivan> chair: phila
14:11:41 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2026-10-21: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/84c997c3-bd27-4e7e-8eac-54cd977a4b03/20261021T110000/
14:57:27 <phila> phila has joined #vcwg
15:00:23 <wes-smith> wes-smith has joined #vcwg
15:00:46 <pdl-ASU> pdl-ASU has joined #vcwg
15:01:27 <Wip> Wip has joined #vcwg
15:01:32 <Wip> present+
15:01:34 <pdl-ASU> present+
15:01:35 <Carolynn> Carolynn has joined #vcwg
15:01:42 <Carolynn> present+
15:01:42 <KevinDean> KevinDean has joined #vcwg
15:01:57 <KevinDean> present+
15:02:04 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #vcwg
15:02:43 <KevinDean> https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
15:02:53 <dlongley> present+
15:02:59 <Carolynn> scribe+
15:03:01 <phila> present+
15:03:03 <ivan> present+
15:03:09 <wes-smith> present+
15:03:09 <phila> chair: phila
15:03:25 <kezike> kezike has joined #vcwg
15:03:30 <michaelshea> michaelshea has joined #vcwg
15:03:31 <echsecutor> echsecutor has joined #vcwg
15:03:40 <michaelshea> present+
15:03:42 <kezike> present+
15:03:43 <echsecutor> present+
15:04:00 <hsano> hsano has joined #vcwg
15:04:20 <hsano> present+
15:04:28 <ivan> present+ kezike
15:04:38 <ivan> present+ manu
15:04:39 <Carolynn> phila: In this call, we must cover a few topics which may take somem time. Wes raised issued on API. Manu's presentation in Dublin.
15:04:57 <ivan> present+ hxavier
15:05:06 <Carolynn> phila: The goal is to try to collaborate peacefully.
15:05:08 <ivan> present+ elaine
15:05:12 <TallTed> present+
15:05:12 <hsxavier> hsxavier has joined #VCWG
15:05:27 <ivan> present+ michaelshea
15:05:41 <phila> TPAC agenda https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/19vlKzO5nZjsVMVPmuI40jdSGW3kGUtAC1ngW-yQOC6g/edit
15:05:49 <ivan> present+ pdl-ASU
15:05:57 <Carolynn> phila: Kevin also has a issue to discuss. Does anyone have any issues for next week, slots are built around timezones.
15:06:33 <ivan> present+ wes-smith
15:06:34 <Carolynn> phila: barcode and DI will be covered West coast timezeone. and other work focusing on Eastern timezones
15:06:44 <ivan> present+ joe
15:06:54 <phila> Topic: Issues in DC API
15:06:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/10/21-vcwg-minutes.html TallTed
15:07:03 <Carolynn> wes-smith: suggest manu goes first. issues related to slide deck which provides bigger picture.
15:07:20 <manu> DC API Interoperability Concerns wrt. W3C VCs: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1_tizY_xn_92NKSmojJEmj-BMMV5WRheKGx78fq8U9LI/edit?slide=id.p1#slide=id.p1
15:07:35 <Carolynn> manu: VC API interoperability concerns, shared in the chat channel.
15:07:40 <ivan> present+ dmitriz
15:07:48 <dmitriz> dmitriz has joined #vcwg
15:08:48 <Carolynn> manu: this is largely the work of Wes. Spoke to Dave and other VCWG participants, and industry trade groups. Convenience retail, also W3C member. Also been run by several California agencies that are deploying VC API. Digitar Bazar directly involved integrating this with several VC formats.
15:08:51 <kezike> s/VC API interoperability concerns/DC API interoperability concerns/
15:09:51 <Carolynn> manu: this will happen on Tuesday of TPAC in the web payments SIG. 2 day meeting. Joint meeting of several interest groups (FIDO Alliance, credit cards related orgs.) The presentation is intended to be high-level.
15:10:30 <phila> q+
15:10:33 <Carolynn> manu: Focus is on use cases. Current API makes it impossible to implement these use cases. Propose solutions that the VCWG has been working on if there is a will to do so.
15:10:49 <phila> q+ to ask about ambitions for platform/browser
15:11:18 <Carolynn> manu: three main things that will be discussed. There are many other topics.
15:12:52 <Carolynn> manu: This is coming from deployment experience in production, 50+ states in the US. Retail stores. have been deploying W3C VCs for years now. 152k stores. NACS : are in 45 countries. Other usecase is the California state, and California education system.
15:14:09 <KevinDean> KevinDean has joined #vcwg
15:14:14 <KevinDean> present+
15:14:35 <Carolynn> manu: Manu is not representing these organisations. He is not speaking for them. In the retail sector, typical usecase where DC API doesn't work. Instead of using a physical wallet, you buy a product and at checkout your age needs to be proven, provide gas card, coupons and offers want to be provided by the store. How can this happen in a single
15:14:35 <Carolynn> click ?
15:15:34 <Carolynn> manu:DC API can't do this as many back and forth for issuance and verification. 8-16 taps required. Bad user experience. This has been solved in VCALM which can do issuance and verification in one flow.
15:15:43 <phila> [Manu is sharing his slides in the Zoom channel but they're linked in the minutes]
15:17:04 <Carolynn> manu: second use case is picking up a credential online. Authentication using VC driver's licence (mDoc) and DMV issues a W3C VC. not supported because Apple because they block non mDOC requests.  Also refuses APIs that are not both Apple phones.
15:17:45 <Carolynn> manu: This is very complicated and creates bad UX. Want platforms and browsers to not block requests that are not of the "right" VC format.
15:18:59 <Carolynn> manu: Consistency is required. Third usecase : verifiers must be registered with Apple or Google store. This means that a verifier has to do this for each wallet they want to support. This is difficult for a small retailer.
15:19:38 <Carolynn> manu: the ask is to reuse website certificates to verify the verifier.
15:19:56 <Carolynn> manu: Summary of the requested changes.
15:20:04 <phila> q-
15:20:32 <dlehn2> dlehn2 has joined #vcwg
15:21:27 <Carolynn> manu: multi-credential flow. DC API consistency - all formats over all platforms to create a unified experience. Please don't set up a seperate PKI infrastructure for verifiers. Don't put platform vendors of who can issue and verify on the web.
15:21:48 <wes-smith> q+
15:21:59 <Carolynn> manu: these issues have been raised by Wes. Does the VCWG agree with these issues ?
15:22:04 <phila> ack wes-smith
15:22:06 <wes-smith> https://github.com/w3c-fedid/digital-credentials/issues/594
15:22:16 <Carolynn> wes-smith: links to these issues in IRC.
15:22:17 <wes-smith> https://github.com/w3c-fedid/digital-credentials/issues/593
15:23:36 <manu> q+
15:23:54 <Carolynn> wes-smith: thanks to manu for the high-level view. links to specific issues provided. Some issues cannot be raised as PRs.  Do VCWG members engage with such use cases ? Would be good if the group had a unified perspective on VC API versus VCALM.
15:23:59 <phila> ack manu
15:25:06 <JennieM> JennieM has joined #vcwg
15:25:10 <JennieM> present+
15:25:50 <Carolynn> manu: +1 to wes. in the federated id WG when they rechartered to VC API, we were listed as a mandatory liaison. In theory, this group should have been engaged before candidate rec. Has there been a request for horizontal review ? But is it too late ? These issues have been pointed to for years and they have not been addressed. Raised "surprise" in the FIWG.
15:26:34 <Carolynn> manu: The issues have been raising issues with real customers.
15:26:53 <wes-smith> q+
15:27:04 <Carolynn> phila: doesn't know which Android did it did way, linked to their business model. Are we challenging their business models ???
15:27:20 <Carolynn> phila: pointing at process will not matter if this is the case.
15:27:50 <phila> ack wes-smith
15:27:53 <Carolynn> phila: I'm playing devil's advocate here. How much does this resonate with others from Digital Bazar.
15:27:55 <Wip> q+
15:28:27 <dmitriz> q+
15:28:41 <TallTed> q+
15:28:50 <phila> s/others from/others not from
15:29:21 <phila> ack Wip
15:29:36 <Carolynn> wes-smith: Concerning business models, absolutely not. Issue 594: what we are requesting gives individual companies agency about what they require, such as high-assurance flows. what we are asking is to make sure that in the list of supported protocols you include one that doesn't require high assurance.
15:30:07 <phila> ack dmitriz
15:30:09 <michaelshea> +1 to Will's comment
15:30:12 <Carolynn> Wip: this is a great presentation.
15:30:24 <michaelshea> q+
15:30:57 <phila> ack TallTed
15:30:58 <Carolynn> dmitriz: +1 to everythng said before. These are important use cases. Want to add that this goes into anti-trust territory. Ability to support global standards is important from this perspective.
15:31:46 <Carolynn> TallTed: strongly encourage everyone to join in FIWG, there is active participation by Chrome and Android Google folks. Some participation by Apple.
15:32:48 <pdl-ASU> q+
15:33:01 <Carolynn> TallTed: the arguments about UX will be the strongest Apple will hear. However the reason they do not support a technical thing are issues related to security and privacy. Sometimes what they see as a problem will take years to surface. The iPhone was a 20 year project.
15:33:15 <Carolynn> TallTed: just stating problems will not get the desired effect.
15:33:33 <Carolynn> TallTed: the strongest argument will be UX which is their bread and butter.
15:33:52 <Carolynn> TallTed: Google just does AB testing on users. UX is not priority.
15:33:53 <phila> ack michaelshea
15:34:26 <Carolynn> michaelshea: +1 to all that was said. UX is horrific. Is this presentation available ?
15:34:35 <wes-smith> q+ to add a note about user experience
15:35:04 <Carolynn> phila: the presentation is intended to be shared.
15:35:16 <TallTed> the deck is freely shareable -- https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1_tizY_xn_92NKSmojJEmj-BMMV5WRheKGx78fq8U9LI/edit?usp=sharing
15:35:19 <phila> ack pdl-ASU
15:35:27 <Carolynn> phila: The TPAC we are talking about can be joined remote.
15:35:36 <TallTed> (it may be tweaked up to the actual TPAC session)
15:35:59 <wes-smith> +1 pdl-ASU, this is an extensibility concern
15:36:22 <phila> ack wes-smith
15:36:22 <Zakim> wes-smith, you wanted to add a note about user experience
15:36:28 <Carolynn> pdl-ASU: this is also about future-proofing.
15:37:24 <Carolynn> wes-smith: UX is about things being unpleasant. But this will make some use cases impossible and will harm the ecosystem. Retail stores will not access flows that increases check out time.
15:37:50 <manu> q+
15:37:51 <Carolynn> phila: confirm that checkout time is fundamental, even 1 second is too much.
15:37:53 <phila> ack manu
15:38:15 <ivan> q+
15:38:16 <Carolynn> manu: thanks to wes. Does anyone in the group object to us presenting any of this content?
15:38:22 <phila> ack ivan
15:38:33 <manu> q+
15:38:54 <Carolynn> ivan: does not object. so far, to understand the question, do you want this presentation to be made in the name of the VCWG ?
15:39:39 <Carolynn> manu: It's too much to ask for this to be the WG's position. Experience from Digital Bazar. VCWG has taken to a look at it and doesn't object. But it is not an official position.
15:39:44 <manu> q-
15:40:49 <Carolynn> phila: the presentation was given to our WG and everyone on the call was fully supported. even the scribe who doesn't have time to speak!
15:40:49 <phila> Topic: Bitstring Status List
15:41:47 <phila> Open PRs https://github.com/w3c/vc-bitstring-status-list/pulls
15:41:53 <Carolynn> phila: Mea Culpa, I joined the DI and Barcode TF and learned the bitstring status was assigned to this group.
15:42:51 <phila> Subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-bitstring-status-list/pull/220
15:42:47 <Carolynn> KevinDean: there are a couple of PRs, bitstring compression and encoding steps. result of issue 209 which wanted additional constraints on the gzip compression. Some things may have privacy implications (e.g. filename, comment, etc. )
15:43:44 <Carolynn> KevinDean: we have added some normative requirements stating that this is binary. no extra data. Should not have fname or fcomment and modification timestamp is zero. These will be SHOULD and not MUST.
15:44:07 <manu> q+ to support and ask if this has been checked against implementations yet? We should remember to label this as a class ?3? change?
15:45:00 <phila> ack manu
15:45:00 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to support and ask if this has been checked against implementations yet? We should remember to label this as a class ?3? change?
15:45:01 <Carolynn> KevinDean: minor changes to the text about the multi-base encoding and slight fix to decompression method. I have also expanded the terminology a bit, there was a single compressed bitstring composed in two parts. I have broken that out to detail the encoding steps.
15:45:58 <ivan> q+
15:46:00 <Carolynn> manu: Thanks. Looks good. Have you checked against implementations? Test to the test suites ? reminder to label this a class change 1234 ? We are just clarifying the text.
15:46:17 <Carolynn> manu: make sure to track all changes to report easily.
15:46:58 <phila> ack ivan
15:47:09 <Carolynn> KevinDean: will look into that. Only normative change that could affect an implementation are these two: details them. But this is very rare implementation as it refers to old OS only.
15:47:30 <Carolynn> ivan: if there are privacy or secrutiy issued, we are authorized by our charter.
15:47:45 <phila> Subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-bitstring-status-list/pull/219
15:47:47 <Carolynn> KevinDean: I don't have authority to add labels in this repo.
15:48:32 <Carolynn> KevinDean: expanded bitstring algorithm: This addresses an ambiguity in the spec about the bit ordering. and deficiency when a status has more than one bit assigned to it. Bit to byte ordering.
15:48:33 <Carolynn> KevinDean
15:48:54 <Carolynn> KevinDean: MSB first by Digital Bazar. Prevaling convention in the ecosystem.
15:48:58 <TallTed> MSB = Most Signficant Bit
15:49:48 <Carolynn> KevinDean: I have expanded the documentation to provide a normative alg. for MSB ordering. This is quite detailed. The net result is if you took the entirety of the bitstring, each status would appear in their position.
15:50:03 <Carolynn> KevinDean: this is the logical reason behind the MSB ordering
15:50:16 <Carolynn> KevinDean: this is a simple set of mathematical statements.
15:50:24 <manu> q+
15:50:27 <phila> ack manu
15:50:38 <Carolynn> manu: looks good. Exactly what we wanted.
15:50:48 <dlongley> +1 looks good, just needs double checking with implementations/test suites.
15:51:04 <Carolynn> phila: Kevin to join the TF meeting next week.
15:51:30 <Carolynn> manu: labels being added to the repo.
15:51:51 <Carolynn> phila: ivan there is another PR
15:52:09 <Carolynn> ivan: that should be gone. Maybe Wes knows ?
15:52:51 <Carolynn> ivan: prefer that someone looks over changes made in the github.
15:53:05 <Carolynn> manu: I'll look at it.
15:53:14 <phila> Topic: VCDM vocabulary - ttps://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1652
15:54:04 <Carolynn> ivan: lots of work done to make the new version of the vocab. Want to merge this knowing new versions are coming, from Kayode. But first step is merging what we have.
15:54:12 <Carolynn> phila: do you want to resolve to merge?
15:54:23 <Carolynn> ivan: anyone opposing it?
15:54:41 <Carolynn> phila: Dimitri, Ted have looked at it. Dave?
15:56:19 <ivan> topic: aob
15:55:40 <Carolynn> phila: a few things before we finish. If joining remotely, TPAC infrastructure is typically very good.
15:56:16 <Carolynn> phila: last week I was at a big GS1 event, lovely surprise about the construction industry. Presentation by Ecowise
15:56:36 <Carolynn> phila: She talked about digital signatures but
15:56:39 <Carolynn> q+
15:56:41 <Carolynn> phila
15:57:00 <Carolynn> phila: it was about W3C VCs. was happy to see that !
15:57:03 <phila> ack Carolynn
15:57:16 <manu> Carolynn: They are one of the CIRPASS pilots, so of course they used W3C technology :)
15:57:18 <michaelshea> OF course!
15:57:40 <Carolynn> phila: brent will be with us next week.
15:57:45 <echsecutor> we are in here https://www.construct-x.org/ trying to make them more w3c VCs in that Dataspace ;)
15:57:59 <pdl-ASU> next meeting?
15:58:00 <dmitriz> q+
15:58:08 <echsecutor> Sebastian Schmittner
15:58:13 <phila> ack dmitriz
15:58:33 <Carolynn> dmitriz: on tuesday is did WG overlapping with VCWG meeting ?
15:58:59 <Carolynn> manu: there should not be an overlap
15:59:12 <Carolynn> phila
15:59:23 <dmitriz> the week after is IIW! :)
15:59:31 <Carolynn> phila: the week after TPAC there will be no TF meetings.
15:59:48 <michaelshea> Thx Phil!
15:59:50 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/10/21-vcwg-minutes.html ivan
16:00:07 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:00:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items