12:05:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg
12:05:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/10/01-pmwg-irc
12:05:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:05:13 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:06:53 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-10-01: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Sep/0030.html
12:06:55 <ivan> Chair: wendy, susan
12:06:55 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:06:55 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Sep/0030.html
12:52:43 <gautierchomel_> gautierchomel_ has joined #pmwg
12:58:41 <DaleRogers> DaleRogers has joined #pmwg
12:58:51 <duga> duga has joined #pmwg
12:59:01 <DaleRogers> present+
12:59:02 <duga> present+
12:59:18 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg
12:59:28 <toshiakikoike> present+
12:59:45 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg
12:59:57 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #pmwg
13:00:01 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #pmwg
13:00:06 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
13:00:27 <GeorgeK> present+
13:00:38 <ajellinek> ajellinek has joined #pmwg
13:00:48 <gautierchomel_> present+
13:00:58 <CharlesL1> CharlesL1 has joined #pmwg
13:01:02 <shiestyle> present+
13:01:03 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pmwg
13:01:03 <ajellinek> present+
13:01:07 <sueneu> sueneu has joined #pmwg
13:01:12 <CharlesL1> present+
13:01:14 <sueneu> present+
13:01:15 <wendyreid> present+
13:01:20 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #pmwg
13:01:28 <gpellegrino> present+
13:01:36 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #pmwg
13:02:26 <duga> scribe+
13:02:26 <sueneu> scribe+
13:03:06 <duga> wendyreid: APA meeting is next week
13:03:11 <mgarrish> present+
13:03:11 <wendyreid> Topic: Extended Descriptions - https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y-extended-desc/blob/main/README.md
13:03:25 <duga> ... so we should discuss the proposed Extended Descs
13:03:40 <ivan> present+ shiestyle, wendyreid, sueneu, gautierchomel_, ajellinek, mgarrish, gpellegrino, GeorgeK, CharlesL1
13:03:56 <duga> GeorgeK: Trying to get new values into ARIA is difficult
13:04:17 <duga> ... we have been working on 2 attributes that identify extended descriptions
13:04:39 <duga> ... Gautier is the author of the proposal
13:04:53 <duga> ... APA came back with comments, and we added them to the explainer
13:05:24 <duga> ... this technique identifies 2 options. For EPUB we suggest a link after the thing that needs an extended desc
13:05:37 <duga> ... likely to the end matter that is out of spine
13:05:40 <gpellegrino> q+
13:05:53 <duga> ... there the image is replicated and there is a back link
13:06:19 <duga> ... For the web, you can use a details element that expands and collapses. We know that can be a problem in EPUB
13:06:54 <duga> ... You could also place it directly underneath the image, but that doesn't work as well for mainstream uses
13:07:18 <duga> ... There is an ARIA details that can point to things on page, in this case it would point to the link
13:07:37 <gpellegrino> q-
13:07:50 <duga> ... Also when people encounter this link there is no agreed upon way to identify the link or the content once you follow it
13:08:04 <CharlesL1> role="extendeddescriptionref" to mark the forward link (the anchor in the primary content that points to the extended description).
13:08:04 <CharlesL1> role="extendeddescription" to mark the container that holds the extended description (which can be in the same document or in an external resource).
13:08:16 <duga> ... we propose two attributes to solve this called [???] and [???]
13:08:43 <ivan> present+ naokiakimoto, shintarofukushima
13:09:03 <duga> mgarrish: This is bigger than dpub ARIA, extended desc is bigger than epub. That is why we are talking to APA and not just ARIA
13:09:20 <ivan> present- naokiakimoto
13:09:29 <wendyreid> q+
13:09:34 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:09:38 <duga> GeorgeK: gautierchomel_ and gpellegrino won't be able to attend next week, but I and mgarrish will be in attendance
13:09:43 <ivan> present+ motoisuzuki
13:10:00 <gpellegrino> q+
13:10:29 <ivan> present+ hadrien
13:10:33 <duga> wendyreid: I know how resistant ARIA is to adding new roles. I wonder about roles when there isn't a specific semantic behavior
13:10:37 <sueneu> welcome colleagues from dpfj : )
13:10:59 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg
13:11:01 <mgarrish> q+
13:11:02 <duga> ... adding more semantics when there isn't a known behavior can be a problem
13:11:05 <Hadrien> present+
13:11:24 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:11:30 <duga> ... I think I am on the side of ARIA. What is the benefit of new semantics?
13:11:52 <gpellegrino> https://daisy.github.io/transitiontoepub/best-practices/extended-desc/ExtendedDescriptionsBestPractices.html
13:11:53 <duga> gpellegrino: We already have guideline for these semantics.
13:12:18 <duga> ... We have checked with RS devs and they prefer a more declarative way
13:12:37 <duga> ... with ARIA details you have to walk the DOM, sometimes in different files
13:13:01 <duga> ... For the expected behavior we have some suggestions in the explainer
13:13:29 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:13:32 <Hadrien> q+
13:13:35 <duga> ... This could be in a sidebar or popup, etc. So we expect behavior
13:14:08 <duga> mgarrish: I raised this previously. And this is why we are bringing it to APA first
13:14:16 <duga> ... they have concerns
13:14:48 <duga> ... so we are in the process of presenting at this point. The meeting next week will help flesh out the proposal from both sides
13:14:55 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:15:00 <duga> ... this is just the beginning of the conversation
13:15:01 <wendyreid> q+
13:15:22 <duga> Hadrien: I mentioned in email, but we have already impolemented extended desc in our iOS app
13:15:49 <duga> ... We have an image viewer that allows you to manipulate the view of the image (zoom, rotate)
13:15:57 <duga> ... And there we have an extended desc
13:16:30 <duga> ... We have mostly kept the algorithm, though slightly simplified. You get the extended desc there
13:16:51 <duga> ... this is done via button, with the label taken from the link
13:17:01 <duga> ... there can even be multiple
13:17:44 <duga> ... it works. I don't like the use of non linear resources, but otherwise the affordance works
13:18:12 <duga> ... We do see some bad descriptions, which are content problems. But when they are good the experience is really nice
13:18:57 <duga> ... There are some questions about read aloud, and whether to use extended desc
13:19:12 <duga> ... so we are interested in guidance there. It is a little too verbose
13:19:33 <duga> ... You can try it now on the Apple ecosystem
13:19:48 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:20:05 <LaurentLM> LaurentLM has joined #pmwg
13:20:10 <duga> GeorgeK: Accessible name and desc. I assume desc is the alt text?
13:20:38 <duga> Hadrien: It's more complicated than that. Alt text is one thing to use, but the algorithm calls for other things  that are more important
13:20:41 <ivan> present+ LaurentLM
13:20:46 <duga> ... so we kept to the spirit of it
13:20:54 <gpellegrino> https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-1.2/
13:21:03 <duga> GeorgeK: I am not familiar with it
13:21:20 <duga> gpellegrino: Sending the link now
13:21:34 <duga> Hadrien: This is now in the toolkit so other apps can use it
13:22:11 <duga> GeorgeK: Today we don't know what the link is to
13:22:29 <duga> ... down the road I think a lot if pubs will want to use an icon as the link
13:22:50 <duga> ... a standard icon could help in identifying it
13:23:11 <duga> wendyreid: I think the use case is very clear
13:23:46 <duga> ... the way we are saying to do this in EPUB makes sense, but we have to make the case for the web in general
13:24:07 <mgarrish> q+
13:24:11 <duga> ... things are different in epub
13:24:37 <duga> ... extended desc being a separate file makes perfect sense for EPUB. it isn't as clear for the web in general
13:25:06 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:25:23 <duga> mgarrish: That is why we want to go to APA first
13:25:26 <duga> q+
13:25:54 <duga> ... we don't want to start in dpub-aria to avoid surprising people
13:26:01 <gautierchomel_> q+
13:26:39 <duga> ... we just want every to get involved to see, we don't want to do it in isolation
13:26:46 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #pmwg
13:26:51 <duga> ... I agree if it doesn't work for the web, that is fine
13:26:54 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:27:04 <GeorgeK> present+
13:27:14 <sueneu> duga: where did this document come from?
13:27:41 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel_
13:27:47 <duga> gpellegrino: the joint TF
13:28:00 <CharlesL1> q+
13:28:29 <sueneu> s/every to/everyone to/
13:28:32 <duga> gautierchomel_: I want to add a use case around 1 file per chapter [I missed the first bit]
13:29:34 <duga> ... we have been working in this for a while, sent the first version to APA. I suggested we do the same for the web use case (open an issue, etc)
13:29:34 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:29:38 <sueneu> q+
13:29:50 <duga> CharlesL1: side note to Hadrien non-linear comment
13:29:59 <duga> ... I don't think we are hard and fast on that
13:30:14 <duga> ... pubs don't want to see extended desc at the end of the book
13:30:39 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:30:40 <duga> ... it is up the to the publisher
13:30:56 <duga> sueneu: gautierchomel_ said we should develop a use case for the web
13:31:02 <duga> ... is that outside our role?
13:31:32 <GeorgeK> q+
13:31:40 <duga> wendyreid: There are areas of publishing that have browser experiences that are still publishing scenarios
13:31:49 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:32:07 <duga> GeorgeK: Publisher use of LMS is extensive
13:32:28 <duga> ... if they choose to use details under an image it is still useful to know what it is
13:32:52 <duga> ... as opposed to something that is frequently use for details (e.g. answers)
13:33:08 <duga> ... so this would clarify what the content of the details is
13:33:43 <duga> wendyreid: We are meeting with APA next week, plus some things they are bringing to us
13:34:00 <wendyreid> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/3079
13:34:42 <sueneu> duga: This has come up a few times recently, that we don't have a processing model
13:35:11 <sueneu> …the question is that we don't say what reading systems should do when they ingest one of the documents
13:35:29 <sueneu> …what if it is missing a resource? what if it isn't jsonld?
13:35:48 <sueneu> …what do you do if there is a target that isn't in the document
13:36:05 <LaurentLM> q+
13:36:25 <sueneu> …I think we need to make sure that these solutions are interoperable because these things will be common
13:36:36 <wendyreid> ack Laur
13:36:41 <sueneu> …we should tell reading systems what they should do when they encounter this
13:37:10 <duga> LaurentLM: we have an expectations section
13:37:26 <duga> ... to create a real processing model we need some thing that is normatice
13:37:49 <duga> ... one about the shape of the model, one about the processing, one about ???
13:38:11 <duga> ... we can add more to a non normative section, but we can't call it a processing model
13:38:11 <ivan> q+
13:38:18 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:38:21 <sueneu> s/about ???/non-normative expectations of reading systems/
13:38:22 <wendyreid> q+ duga
13:38:45 <duga> ivan: I am in favor of doing that normatively
13:39:05 <duga> ... I wonder if there are similar issues coming up from the other end
13:39:18 <duga> ... and there is also the writing end
13:39:22 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:39:50 <sueneu> duga: That is true, too. Right now, we talk about implementors but don't make it clear if we are talking about reading or writing
13:40:01 <ivan> q+
13:40:27 <sueneu> …we say that implementers should support the other kind do we say that they should output the other as well?
13:40:55 <sueneu> …we should clarify that the output should be this, but you are allowed to read other things
13:40:58 <LaurentLM> q+
13:41:33 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:41:36 <sueneu> …html makes similar things clear, like improper nesting of tags. We need to clarify when we talk about implementers if we are talking about reading or writing
13:41:46 <sueneu> s/implementors/implementers/
13:42:13 <duga> ivan: To step back, we say we do not define how the implementation works in the epub. We only define export
13:42:19 <duga> q+
13:42:33 <duga> ... we are only standardizing the export, not the import
13:42:49 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:43:39 <duga> LaurentLM: duga you are talking about collections, we should maybe remove it
13:44:02 <duga> ... once stable we will create a json schema
13:44:10 <duga> ... so that will be part of the judge
13:44:28 <duga> ... so anything that doesn't fit the schema will be rejected
13:44:49 <duga> ... so it must match the schema
13:45:20 <duga> ... it doesn't solve everything, like if the anchor is missing
13:45:28 <Hadrien> q+
13:45:48 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:46:22 <sueneu> duga: To respond to ivan, I don't read that section of the spec the same way, we don't want to define what happens inside the reading system
13:47:04 <sueneu> …but import is still covered here. We should say "you SHOULD reject" or you "MUST reject" an import that doesn't match the schema
13:48:02 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:48:20 <duga> Hadrien: It sounds tricky to do strong requirements
13:48:41 <sueneu> …we should come up with a way to specify what should happen if an annotation doesn't match a file like "chapter1.html" but is still relevant, like if the annotations are traded between a "Moby Dick" from Standard Ebooks and another from Project Gutenberg
13:48:51 <duga> ... you could theoretically find the annotation if it is text fragment
13:49:18 <duga> ... I also think un-anchored is fine, but not everyone will. So I don't think we need hard requirements
13:49:21 <duga> q+
13:49:28 <duga> ... it is a balancing act
13:49:29 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:50:22 <sueneu> duga: I'm not proposing any specific text right now, I like leaving things open. Maybe we should require that any annotation should be shown. But a reading system might not want to do that. So we shouldn't be too specific
13:51:11 <sueneu> …but maybe people haven't thought of this. We could use "SHOULD" because if makes sense to try and find a text fragment even if the target content document is lost.
13:51:25 <sueneu> …we can't make it precise, but we should add more than is there
13:51:26 <duga> q?
13:51:43 <ivan> q+
13:51:47 <LaurentLM> q+
13:51:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:52:01 <sueneu> …I can raise individual issues on all the things I have listed, or do we want someone to take a crack at it for now
13:52:25 <duga> ivan: We should this out. I will prefer to see the format fully fleshed out first
13:52:40 <duga> ... and I would like to see the skeleton of a section for this
13:52:56 <duga> ...it makes it easier to do PRs
13:53:05 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:53:38 <ivan> q+
13:53:47 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:53:52 <duga> LaurentLM: My only question now is, if we want something normative and we say to reject, can we say that if the external schema is non-normative?
13:54:09 <duga> ivan: We can make the schema normative. It is stable enough now
13:54:15 <duga> ... we can at least try
13:54:36 <duga> ... so the schema will be part of the spec, perhaps indirectly
13:54:50 <duga> ... It won't be easy to produce
13:55:27 <duga> wendyreid: Next steps?
13:55:51 <wendyreid> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/3078
13:56:10 <sueneu> q+
13:56:21 <duga> wendyreid: Something to think about for two weeks out
13:56:25 <duga> ... writing tests
13:56:32 <duga> q+
13:56:51 <duga> ... it is different than epub
13:57:04 <sueneu> q-
13:57:12 <LaurentLM> q+
13:57:16 <duga> ... So please think of ideas
13:57:22 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:57:45 <sueneu> duga: we only test normative rs2119 statements? There aren't that many in the spec
13:57:59 <wendyreid> s/rs2119/rfc2119/
13:58:03 <sueneu> …one of the reasons for the processing model is that there are normative statements that are missing
13:58:04 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:58:37 <duga> LaurentLM: The files you mention are good for import, but we also need to test export
13:59:02 <duga> ... so we need a single epub with a set of annotations to make
13:59:33 <duga> wendyreid: Right, so we need export and import tests, so we will need a canonical epub
14:00:04 <duga> ... we might be able to automate some of this, like the export
14:00:34 <duga> ivan: The problem is, if I want to annotate I can't choose the right selector
14:00:49 <duga> ... the RS will choose. There might be two different selectors for the same things
14:01:29 <sueneu> duga: we can automate some
14:01:29 <duga> ... so auto testing that the selectors id the same thing is hard
14:02:28 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:02:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/10/01-pmwg-minutes.html ivan